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joepinetree posted:I think that the Flake situation encapsulates this perfectly. Are you so sure a huge number of Democrats are overlooking his record, or are a bunch of media idiots jumping at their chance to praise a Republican to prove they're not biased against Republicans?
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Oct 25, 2017 18:38
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Talmonis posted:Jesus, you people don't have nearly the level of horror you should at the current situation. We have a guy who is encouraging his cult-like followers to attack protesters, openly enabling and running interference for white supremacists, using hate crime laws and the justice department to persecute BLM, dismantling the EPA from within via a hostile director, threatening the media with revoking their license and general intimidation and once again, threatening nuclear war. This is only after 10 months. Bush was terrible and a monster. That's what makes it so stark, just how horrifying this man is. It was also pretty loving bad under Bush too, though I was fairly young at the time. Trump is just publicly a prick so people have less tolerance for it.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:39
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Talmonis posted:Jesus, you people don't have nearly the level of horror you should at the current situation. We have a guy who is encouraging his cult-like followers to attack protesters, openly enabling and running interference for white supremacists, using hate crime laws and the justice department to persecute BLM, dismantling the EPA from within via a hostile director, threatening the media with revoking their license and general intimidation and once again, threatening nuclear war. This is only after 10 months. Bush was terrible and a monster. That's what makes it so stark, just how horrifying this man is. Bush even managed to try and appoint a worse Supreme Court justice than Trump did. Like Trump is terrible. His followers are worse. But I can't think of a single thing he's even tried to do that are worse than the many things Bush actually did. The most odious thing about Trump is that he doesn't hide his motives or his allies, and the damage he's done to several departments has been terrible, but the first isn't worse just more obvious (Bush also won only with the help of the racists and bigots, after all) and was working towards the same institutional destruction Trump was just more cautiously. Trump is louder and more aggressive but actually more restrained overall in his aims. Less civil, more vulgar, less amicable, more aggressive, but not any more evil. Do you even remember the sort of person Bush tried to put on the Supreme Court?
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Oct 25, 2017 18:41
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Lightning Knight posted:It was also pretty loving bad under Bush too, though I was fairly young at the time. Trump is just publicly a prick so people have less tolerance for it. Exactly. Trump's horrible, but in all the ways that Republicans have always been horrible. He's just more blatant (and therefore embarrassing) about it. In terms of actual harm (particularly from a global perspective), he's going to have to work very hard to catch up with Bush. eta: Also, the idea that the US government openly enabling and running interference for white supremacists is in any way a novel thing is kind of precious. Falstaff fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 18:44
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Falstaff posted:Exactly. Trump's horrible, but in all the ways that Republicans have always been horrible. He's just more blatant (and therefore embarrassing) about it. In terms of actual harm (particularly from a global perspective), he's going to have to work very hard to catch up with Bush. If the rumors about the Trump administration's desire for war with North Korea and/or Iran are accurate, he won't have to work too hard.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:55
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Talmonis posted:The Casus Belli for Iraq was a handout to Halliburton for services rendered. You should go read up on Bush's campaign against McCain in South Carolina. As for epa, you should go read up on Bush's policies in his first year. Trabisnikof posted:Are you so sure a huge number of Democrats are overlooking his record, or are a bunch of media idiots jumping at their chance to praise a Republican to prove they're not biased against Republicans? http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/356974-dems-cheer-flake-after-scathing-speech
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Oct 25, 2017 18:58
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Lightning Knight posted:It was also pretty loving bad under Bush too, though I was fairly young at the time. Trump is just publicly a prick so people have less tolerance for it. GlyphGryph posted:Bush even managed to try and appoint a worse Supreme Court justice than Trump did. I think the damage Trump is doing to the country is worse than the stupid policies he's trying to enact. It's his treatment of immigrants as if they're all criminals and rapists. It's his talk about muslim folks and trying to ban them from entering the country. He was behind the entire Birther bullshit for Obama. He's called for the execution of Bowe Bergdahl for going AWOL. All of this poo poo has an impact on our entire society. Republicans aren't just soulless monsters designed to extract money for the rich anymore. Now they have to be hate fueled psychotics as well, or they get primaried. You think this new batch of hateful legislators, judges and officials will be anything so benign as greedy and callous about the bullshit they spewed to get elected by the rubes as in the past? They're going to hurt us. And they're going to enjoy it.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:00
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Trabisnikof posted:Are you so sure a huge number of Democrats are overlooking his record, or are a bunch of media idiots jumping at their chance to praise a Republican to prove they're not biased against Republicans? Check out the responses to the tweet from the DNC about it. Plenty of supposed democrats upset that the DNC isn't celebrating a Republican who says bad things about Trump but still votes with him. https://twitter.com/dncpress/status/922940836840656896
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Oct 25, 2017 19:00
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Free speech zones. Al Qaeda supports the Democrats and Democrats support Al Qaeda. Gay bashing on a massive scale. DOMA poo poo tons of hate crimes against Muslims given a light tut tutting.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:02
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Those sorts of things are depressing to read but people willing to scream into the void for hours at organizational accounts aren't representative of the population. It's self-selecting in that anyone that knows better isn't gonna jump into that mess.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:04
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^ good thing we had people in this very thread who wanted to voice support for flake because he said trump sucks
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Oct 25, 2017 19:05
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Condiv posted:^ good thing we had people in this very thread who wanted to voice support for flake because he said trump sucks I don't think we should support Flake, I think we should have been like "yeah see Republicans also think Trump sucks." If the DNC is going to just straight be like "nah gently caress that guy" then I mean hey I'm down, because really gently caress that guy. I just think right-wing infighting is always useful and good.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:07
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steinrokkan posted:It's not like the problem materialized overnight when Trump got elected, Israeli, Saudi etc. lobbies have been running aspects of the government for decades, but even though everybody knew, nobody gave a poo poo because having ties to sweet, sweet foreign lobby resources was great. So it's hardly surprising if the public is quite jaded and not as outraged as the politicians ostentatiously are about foreign meddling. Yeah. Basically what a lot of people are hearing is "Trump is being influenced by The Wrong foreign influences!" which is pretty easy to slot into the usual eyerollfest of partisan bickering.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:08
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Condiv posted:^ good thing we had people in this very thread who wanted to voice support for flake because he said trump sucks Basically it comes down to: what Flake said was good, but he is still a spineless waste of air because he won't go against the insanity that is the current GOP, and so should not be celebrated.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:08
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joepinetree posted:All the terrible stuff that Bush did can fill multiple encyclopedias. He had also already planted the shaped thermite charges in the World Trade Center.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:08
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I wholeheartedly support all Republicans in their attempts to start in-fighting or drain Republican resources through meaningless and self-indulging endeavors.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:09
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Lightning Knight posted:I don't think we should support Flake, I think we should have been like "yeah see Republicans also think Trump sucks." That DNC release was like, what, yesterday? It’s a bizarrely correct statement given how garbage Perez has been, although it might be the point that someone wants to resuscitate their credibility with the base. Naturally the folks who took the greatest offense to this were the ‘insider’ and intelligence community types since it suggests their peers might actually be bad people.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:12
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Trabisnikof posted:I wholeheartedly support all Republicans in their attempts to start in-fighting or drain Republican resources through meaningless and self-indulging endeavors. Flake did the opposite of that.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:12
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Trabisnikof posted:I wholeheartedly support all Republicans in their attempts to start in-fighting or drain Republican resources through meaningless and self-indulging endeavors. Seriously this right here. The more "Respectable" Republicans come out and attack the eldritch horror in the white house, the better. If they can convince some apathetic R voters that Trump and his crew aren't "real conservatives" or whatever other insane metric they have for their bullshit, we can only benefit.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:14
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Office Pig posted:That DNC release was like, what, yesterday? It’s a bizarrely correct statement given how garbage Perez has been, although it might be the point that someone wants to resuscitate their credibility with the base. I dunno I didn't see it until just now. But yeah I mean, Flake is garbage. Flake is some serious garbage. I just think it's funny and good to encourage Republican circular firing squad maneuvers in any form, and Flake obliged.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:16
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mcmagic posted:Flake did the opposite of that. Another open senate seat certainly helps. We'll see if actually starts a slap-fight with Trump or is a complete pussy but it isn't like Flake resigning is a bad thing, is it?.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:16
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botany posted:you realize hollywood literally made a movie about how you rigged the russian elections, right That's a terrible argument. Hollywood also made a movie about how the JFK assassination was obviously a conspiracy theory. In any case, it doesn't detract from the point that the Soviet Union did not fall because of US. Forces within the Soviet Union were sufficient to make that happen.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:18
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Talmonis posted:Seriously this right here. The more "Respectable" Republicans come out and attack the eldritch horror in the white house, the better. If they can convince some apathetic R voters that Trump and his crew aren't "real conservatives" or whatever other insane metric they have for their bullshit, we can only benefit. Then they can get a “real conservative l” in the office who doesn’t express his basest desires publicly but will still enact all of the terrible poo poo Republicans want.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:20
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Talmonis posted:Jesus, you people don't have nearly the level of horror you should at the current situation. We have a guy who is encouraging his cult-like followers to attack protesters, openly enabling and running interference for white supremacists, using hate crime laws and the justice department to persecute BLM, dismantling the EPA from within via a hostile director, threatening the media with revoking their license and general intimidation and once again, threatening nuclear war. This is only after 10 months. Bush was terrible and a monster. That's what makes it so stark, just how horrifying this man is. It might be accurate to say that Trump still has the potential to be worse than Bush, but it's far too early to be wishing for Bush to return. Like, we know Bush did a bunch of terrible stuff that literally resulted in at least hundreds of thousands of dead people, and I would choose the hypothetical possibility of something worse (though honestly it would be tough to outdo Bush unless Trump started putting minorities in camps or invaded North Korea or something) over the guarantee of someone willing to do something like that. Honestly, it feels like the weird Bush rehabilitation stuff is just a transparent rhetorical tool to make condemnation of Trump stronger, but it carries with it some really harmful and misinformed implications.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:21
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Trabisnikof posted:Another open senate seat certainly helps. We'll see if actually starts a slap-fight with Trump or is a complete pussy but it isn't like Flake resigning is a bad thing, is it?. It's less likely dems get that seat with him out of the primary.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:21
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I think more Republicans should start talking about how Trump is a piece of poo poo.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:22
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mcmagic posted:It's less likely dems get that seat with him out of the primary. And your evidence to support this idea that defeating Flake is easier than an open seat is?
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Oct 25, 2017 19:28
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Lightning Knight posted:I don't think we should support Flake, I think we should have been like "yeah see Republicans also think Trump sucks." i don't think the Dems saying good things is going to be read as sincere and cause infighting, it would just draw attention away from the Republicans onto themselves as parts of their base do a double take.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:29
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Talmonis posted:I mean, in comparison it's difficult not to see Bush in a rose tinted light. Right now, if you could tell me that we could replace Trump and Co. with Bush and his crew, I'd fall over myself scrambling to do it. And that's considering all the awful poo poo he got up to. Weren’t you the guy melting down over the picture of a dead child that Bush is directly responsible for?
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Oct 25, 2017 19:30
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Trabisnikof posted:And your evidence to support this idea that defeating Flake is easier than an open seat is? Flake was losing in the primary. Him being out opens up a lane of for a better media trained republican to beat Ward in the primary.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:31
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Democrazy posted:That's a terrible argument. Hollywood also made a movie about how the JFK assassination was obviously a conspiracy theory. In any case, it doesn't detract from the point that the Soviet Union did not fall because of US. Forces within the Soviet Union were sufficient to make that happen. i'm not sure what you're arguing here. that the US didn't interfere with the '96 russian elections? that the russian crash in the '90s had nothing to do with the US?
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Oct 25, 2017 19:32
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Talmonis posted:I think the damage Trump is doing to the country is worse than the stupid policies he's trying to enact. How well do you actually remember the Bush administration? quote:Republicans aren't just soulless monsters designed to extract money for the rich anymore. quote:Now they have to be hate fueled psychotics as well, or they get primaried. quote:You think this new batch of hateful legislators, judges and officials will be anything so benign as greedy and callous about the bullshit they spewed to get elected by the rubes as in the past? They're going to hurt us. And they're going to enjoy it. Seriously, how well do you remember the Bush administration.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:32
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Talmonis posted:Jesus, you people don't have nearly the level of horror you should at the current situation. We have a guy who is encouraging his cult-like followers to attack protesters, openly enabling and running interference for white supremacists, using hate crime laws and the justice department to persecute BLM, dismantling the EPA from within via a hostile director, threatening the media with revoking their license and general intimidation and once again, threatening nuclear war. This is only after 10 months. Bush was terrible and a monster. That's what makes it so stark, just how horrifying this man is. lmao Dubya did all this poo poo to IN ADDITION TO KILLING ONE MILLION IRAQIS did everyone just completely forget the Bush years? I don’t blame you if you do but it would explain a lot about how liberals look at trump
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Oct 25, 2017 19:33
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GlyphGryph posted:i don't think the Dems saying good things is going to be read as sincere and cause infighting, it would just draw attention away from the Republicans onto themselves as parts of their base do a double take. I mean that's true, it's more like the options are "say nothing and watch them fight" or "actually, Flake is also bad, in addition to being a spineless coward." I'm down with the second option but I think the first option has merits.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:33
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mcmagic posted:Flake was losing in the primary. Him being out opens up a lane of for a better media trained republican to beat Ward in the primary. lol at believing in Republican primary "lanes" anymore Raskolnikov38 posted:lmao Dubya did all this poo poo to IN ADDITION TO KILLING ONE MILLION IRAQIS I think a lot of people are too young and weren't politically active during Bush. There's a certain attitude towards politics I've noticed from people who had Obama as the first president they paid attention to.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:33
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lmao Dubya did all this poo poo to IN ADDITION TO KILLING ONE MILLION IRAQIS I think it's more likely that most people don't remember Bush era stuff because they were literally children at the time.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:36
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white sauce posted:I'm sure the charter schools both parties are pushing for will teach students the critical thinking skills needed to discern what's real and fake on social media. Of course they wouldn't want to do that anyway, given that Net Neutrality is probably about to bite it in the US, and Facebook is making a play for commodification and control of the internet for poor people who can't afford actual internet first.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:38
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sirtommygunn posted:I think it's more likely that most people don't remember Bush era stuff because they were literally children at the time. i mean i was in high school but I remember free speech zones, dubya's appointments deregulating everything they could get their hands and him damning an american city to drown because a large amount of black people lived there
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Oct 25, 2017 19:38
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The Soviet Union was doomed to fail because liberal democracy is the only type of government that works and history is over. Nothing new or exciting could ever happen and the only job of the president is to slightly adjust interest rates and taxes by a few percentage points as determined by the sensible center, which is why Hillary is president.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:38
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Nanomashoes posted:The Soviet Union was doomed to fail because liberal democracy is the only type of government that works and history is over. Nothing new or exciting could ever happen and the only job of the president is to slightly adjust interest rates and taxes by a few percentage points as determined by the sensible center, which is why Hillary is president. History actually is over and that's why Trump is president.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:40
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