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Yardbomb posted:The latter, because you somehow think that the people with power in this country would actually give a poo poo. Yes, I do. I felt the same way when people on the right told me that Obama was going to seize power. Goon Danton posted:Guys, I read 1984 and I just don't see what you're worried about. We don't even have a Ministry of Truth!  quote:Just look at the IMDB page, it's basically the same thing. According to you I just need to read the the title. fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 20:35
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fallenturtle posted:Yes, I do. I felt the same way when people on the right told me that Obama was going to seize power. It's almost like the american right are disingenuous fuckers desperate to play victim while they continually ramp up their abuses of minorities.
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Oct 25, 2017 21:02
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fallenturtle posted:Um, no. America is a fascist country. It is an oligarchy run by the military and large corporations - that is Fascism. It is a racist system - that is fascism. It conducts wars of aggression that have resulted in the genocide of millions of people around the world - that is fascism. America is fascist my friend. The Nazis got the idea for their Nuremberg Race laws from American laws against blacks + equality. The American Military is a Fascist army. The American Government is Fascist. All American Presidents since Eisenhower have been Fascists.
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Oct 25, 2017 21:19
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fallenturtle posted:According to you I just need to read the the title. Hey it's not my fault you couldn't even get that far, my dude.
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Oct 25, 2017 21:34
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JFairfax posted:America is a fascist country. I mean I'd describe it as late stage liberal rather than fascist, fascists have more effective government.
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Oct 25, 2017 21:35
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the fascist american army is pretty loving good at murdering brown people. also they have supported multiple fascist dictators around the world.
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Oct 25, 2017 21:54
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JFairfax posted:the fascist american army is pretty loving good at murdering brown people. Countries and armies are quite good at both of those without being fascist. More just plain plutocratic than anything I think. Not that it's better but it's a different type of awful.
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Oct 25, 2017 21:56
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OwlFancier posted:Countries and armies are quite good at both of those without being fascist. More just plain plutocratic than anything I think. America meets all the criteria for being fascist e/ it spies on it's own citizens in massive numbers, it imprisons millions of its citizens just because of the colour of their skin, institutionally oppresses racial minorities, ROUTINELY wages wars of choice which is the major thing the Nazis were convicted of at Nuremberg.
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Oct 25, 2017 21:59
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Goon Danton posted:Hey it's not my fault you couldn't even get that far, my dude. I don't have a lot of free time, a 500 page novel is an investment in time that will take me a while to read, so yea, God forbid if I ask if your point can be made based on the summary.... especially if your point is a gotcha based on the novel title. I'm such a monster.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:02
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JFairfax posted:America meets all the criteria for being fascist Yes but people have done those things since well before fascism was an ideology. Except possibly mass surveillance because that was less practical without telecommunications. Things can be shite but not necessarily fascist. Fascism is a relatively specific thing and the US doesn't meet all the criteria of it.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:06
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America is def fascist. just give in and say it, it feels good to see the truth. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
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Oct 25, 2017 22:07
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I can say the place is shite without believing it's fascist, there's a lot of flavours of shite in the world. If you just go around calling everything you don't like fascist then the word loses meaning. And I like it having meaning because then it means something when I call the dorks on youtube arguing that what we need is a mighty ethnostate to reverse cultural degeneracy, fascists.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:09
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they're totes fascists
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Oct 25, 2017 22:10
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fallenturtle posted:I don't have a lot of free time, a 500 page novel is an investment in time that will take me a while to read, so yea, God forbid if I ask if your point can be made based on the summary.... especially if your point is a gotcha based on the novel title. I'm such a monster. You were spending page after page saying that fascism can't possibly take hold in the US, I let you know about a novel where the protagonist spends the whole book saying that fascism can't possibly take hold in the US while it quietly happens in the background, and your response is to read a summary and dismiss it because you don't think the specific route the fascists take in the book sounds very feasible nowadays. The book is entirely about people like you, and you desperately want to avoid seeing that. The plot summary, even just the title, should have sufficed to get the point across if you were willing to reckon with your own illusions of security, but you aren't. I pointed out the secret prisons and literal actual explicit concentration camp that we ran and no one got in any trouble for running, and your response was "Yes, there's a lot of hosed up poo poo with police that needs to be rectified." What the gently caress are you waiting for, an explicit declaration? Do you need them to pass the We Are Officially Fascists, Heil Hitler Act of 2017?
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Oct 25, 2017 22:16
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Goon Danton posted:I pointed out the secret prisons and literal actual explicit concentration camp that we ran and no one got in any trouble for running, and your response was "Yes, there's a lot of hosed up poo poo with police that needs to be rectified." What the gently caress are you waiting for, an explicit declaration? Do you need them to pass the We Are Officially Fascists, Heil Hitler Act of 2017? I think you'll find that was the PATRIOT Act of 2001 was when America went officially Fascist Patriot Act vs. German Enabling Act The Decrees of 1933 (a) The February 28 Decree. One of the most repressive acts of the new Nazi government, this one allowed for the suspension of civil liberties ....The president was persuaded that the state was in danger and, hence, that the emergency measures embodied in the decree were necessary. Even though under Art. 48 of the constitution, the decree would have been withdrawn once the so-called emergency had passed, any hope of this happening was prevented by the establishment of Hitler's dictatorship following the Enabling Act (see below). It was in fact never withdrawn and remained until the end as an instrument of Nazi terror against ordinary citizens who ran foul of the regime. ARTICLE 1. In virtue of paragraph 2, article 48,* of the German Constitution, the following is decreed as a defensive measure against communist acts of violence , endangering the state: Sections 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124, and 153 of the Constitution of the German Reich are suspended until further notice. Thus, restrictions on personal liberty [114], on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press [118], on the right of assembly and the right of association [124], and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic, and telephonic communications [117], and warrants for house-searches [115], orders for confiscation as well as restrictions on property [153], are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed. *Article 48 of the German Constitution of August 11, 1919: If public safety and order in Germany are materially disturbed or endangered, the President may take the necessary measures to restore public safety and order, and, if necessary, to intervene with the help of the armed forces. To this end he may temporarily suspend, in whole or in part, the fundamental rights established in Articles 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124, and 153 ........... Patriot Act: Section 218 which amends the "probable cause" requirement before conducting secret searches or surveillance to obtain evidence of a crime; Sections 215, 218, 358, and 508 which permit law enforcement authorities to have broad access to sensitive mental health, library, business, financial, and educational records despite the existence of previously adopted state and federal laws which were intended to strengthen the protection of these types of records; Sections 411 and 412 which give the Secretary of State broad powers to designate domestic groups as "terrorist organizations" and the Attorney General power to subject immigrants to indefinite detention or deportation even if no crime has been committed; and Sections 507 and 508 which impose a mandate on state and local public universities who must collect information on students that may be of interest to the Attorney General.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:20
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OwlFancier posted:I mean I'd describe it as late stage liberal rather than fascist, fascists have more effective government. Liberalism is capitalist, and capitalism in decay is fascism, sooo...
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Oct 25, 2017 22:21
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To simplify this whole thing, fallenturtle, because you don't have time to read anything- what would it take to convince you that punching Nazis is a good idea? What evidence could we provide that would change your mind?
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Oct 25, 2017 22:22
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e: almost beaten! gently caress it, I'm actually curious now. What would it take for you to decide that there is actually a significant risk of fascism taking over in the US? Where's that line where it would start to be a reasonable worry, in your mind?
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Oct 25, 2017 22:23
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Praseodymi posted:Liberalism is capitalist, and capitalism in decay is fascism, sooo... Ehhhh capitalism in decay can certainly lead to fascism but it can also just lead to broken-rear end plutocracy with so much inertia that nothing can knock it over except itself.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:24
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OwlFancier posted:Ehhhh capitalism in decay can certainly lead to fascism but it can also just lead to broken-rear end plutocracy with so much inertia that nothing can knock it over except itself. okay, so in what ways is the American military NOT Fascist, and American Politics, and the American Justice System?
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Oct 25, 2017 22:28
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I think at this point the "is America fascist / turning fascist" argument deserves its own thread.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:29
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Goon Danton posted:e: almost beaten! I feel like it sort of depends what people are considering a "significant risk." Like, I think that the chance of Trump's presidency fundamentally changing our country to become fascist in a way it wasn't before is very low, but still exists to an extent I'm uncomfortable with. Like maybe a 10% chance or something, but a 10% chance of going Nazi is still something that I don't find acceptable.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:31
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Goon Danton posted:I think at this point the "is America fascist / turning fascist" argument deserves its own thread. As fun as this discussion has been, can we go back to making fun of Sargon, et al?
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Oct 25, 2017 22:33
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Goon Danton posted:I think at this point the "is America fascist / turning fascist" argument deserves its own thread. Sharing a large number of similarities to fascism isn't sufficient to make a political system fascist, though it does make it easier to transition. Also, if anyone is going to serious-post respond to JFairfax, take into account that they are a bigoted nutter.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:34
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Goon Danton posted:You were spending page after page saying that fascism can't possibly take hold in the US,... quote:I let you know about a novel where the protagonist spends the whole book saying that fascism can't possibly take hold in the US while it quietly happens in the background, and your response is to read a summary and dismiss it... quote:...because you don't think the specific route the fascists take in the book sounds very feasible nowadays. The book is entirely about people like you, and you desperately want to avoid seeing that. The plot summary, even just the title, should have sufficed to get the point across if you were willing to reckon with your own illusions of security, but you aren't. quote:I pointed out the secret prisons and literal actual explicit concentration camp that we ran and no one got in any trouble for running, and your response was "Yes, there's a lot of hosed up poo poo with police that needs to be rectified." What the gently caress are you waiting for, an explicit declaration? Do you need them to pass the We Are Officially Fascists, Heil Hitler Act of 2017? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 25, 2017 22:55
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Mr Interweb posted:As fun as this discussion has been, can we go back to making fun of Sargon, et al? It’s been a while since I heard about Sargon. Is it too much to hope that his profile is declining?
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Oct 25, 2017 22:57
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fallenturtle posted:Sometimes when you connect the dots you see the greater picture. Other times you've just defaced some pointillist's masterpiece. You literally refuse to admit that the police already behave in a very fascist manner currently, right now, in 2017's America. There's no point in anyone arguing with you if you look at all the poo poo the police are doing and go "Meh, doesn't bother me (because I'm white). Now where is the fascism happening?"
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Oct 25, 2017 22:58
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Somfin posted:To simplify this whole thing, fallenturtle, because you don't have time to read anything- what would it take to convince you that punching Nazis is a good idea? What evidence could we provide that would change your mind? I already think punching Nazis (and I assume we're specifically talking about punching Nazis before they punch (or worse) you) is a good idea... I changed my mind on that after C-ville. My point is just that its a double edged sword because while it does help lower the number of Nazis it also hurts the public perception of the Nazi punchers. I think this matters because to really combat these parades of fascism its helpful to have the gen pop supporting you. People here disagree with that, and that's fine, I won't bring it up again after this conversation peters out.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:01
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WampaLord posted:You literally refuse to admit that the police already behave in a very fascist manner currently, right now, in 2017's America. quote:There's no point in anyone arguing with you if you look at all the poo poo the police are doing and go "Meh, doesn't bother me (because I'm white). Now where is the fascism happening?"
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Oct 25, 2017 23:10
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fallenturtle posted:Sometimes when you connect the dots you see the greater picture. Other times you've just defaced some pointillist's masterpiece. There are actual literal no poo poo actually-called-that concentration camps being run in America and being explicitly supported by the President of the United States.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:10
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fallenturtle posted:I already think punching Nazis (and I assume we're specifically talking about punching Nazis before they punch (or worse) you) is a good idea... I changed my mind on that after C-ville. No, we're not talking about punching a Nazi in explicit self-defence and we never were. We're talking about punching Nazis to scare them, and therefore stop from hurting someone else. Why did you feel the need to reclassify the scenario? And what would it take to prove to you that the latter is also acceptable?
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Oct 25, 2017 23:13
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Goon Danton posted:There are actual literal no poo poo actually-called-that concentration camps being run in America and being explicitly supported by the President of the United States. Are you talking about Tent City in Arizona, which I believe was finally shut down or Obama's FEMA camps? Somfin posted:No, we're not talking about punching a Nazi in explicit self-defence and we never were. We're talking about punching Nazis to scare them, and therefore stop from hurting someone else. Why did you feel the need to reclassify the scenario? And what would it take to prove to you that the latter is also acceptable? Somfin, I think you misread what I wrote. I was just clarifying that's not what we were talking about... My statement was in regards to preemptive punching like, as you just confirmed, we've been talking about all along. Nothing was reclassified.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:19
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fallenturtle posted:Are you talking about Tent City in Arizona, which I believe was finally shut down or Obama's FEMA camps? oh my god
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Oct 25, 2017 23:48
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Goon Danton posted:oh my god I didn't realize that FallenTurtle was Big Money Salvia. I feel honored!!
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Oct 26, 2017 00:02
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im_sorry posted:I didn't realize that FallenTurtle was Big Money Salvia. I feel honored!! It's safe to say that we've all been bouncing on our boy's dictatorship for hours, at this point
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Oct 26, 2017 00:05
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Goon Danton posted:It's safe to say that we've all been bouncing on our boy's dictatorship for hours, at this point Lol, that was pretty good. Still not sure what camps you're referring to, though. Edit: Is this was you're referring to? https://www.snopes.com/trump-building-concentration-camps/ fallenturtle fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 00:27
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Guantanamo bay is one
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Oct 26, 2017 01:07
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JFairfax posted:Guantanamo bay is one I was referring to arpaio's camp (hence the "explicitly called that" thing), but yeah this too.
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Oct 26, 2017 01:56
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A coworker started watching Stefan Molyneux, what's some good countermedia?
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Oct 26, 2017 02:21
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The worst submarine posted:A coworker started watching Stefan Molyneux, what's some good countermedia? Shaun (of Shaun and Jen) does a great job with many of his vids, here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd_nVCWPgiA
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Oct 26, 2017 02:23
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