I.G.Y. posted:

this is some very high level concern trolling that doesn't account for people developing politically in the past literal decade. but liberals have no sense of history anyways

Nikalajoga posted:

When you think about it, Abraham Lincoln was one of the worst Presidents of the United States for supporting regime change in Mexico against the legitimate Maximilian government. Such a shocking act of wanton imperialism against an modernizing and reforming monarch must go down as one of the evillest acts of the United States of America.

I.G.Y. posted:

this is some very high level concern trolling that doesn't account for people developing politically in the past literal decade. but liberals have no sense of history anyways

stone cold posted:

would you

a. call her worse than kissinger himself

and

b. call her worse than obama

just wondering how consistent your line of reasoning is, tia

Nikalajoga posted:

When you think about it, Abraham Lincoln was one of the worst Presidents of the United States for supporting regime change in Mexico against the legitimate Maximilian government. Such a shocking act of wanton imperialism against an modernizing and reforming monarch must go down as one of the evillest acts of the United States of America.

stone cold posted:

out of curiosity, were y’all just as mad back then

Nikalajoga posted:

Some of y'all deciding to stan for Gaddafi.

The Kingfish posted:

Its not misogynist to denounce Hillary Clinton for being good friends with a war criminal. You bunch of loving freaks.

Neurolimal posted:

I mean if we're going to talk seriously Lincoln's legacy is a severe case of Right Place Right Time; he tried his damnedest to compromise with the south, the south was just too stupid to believe him.

I get what you mean though, and I'd say what I've always felt: you'll never find a perfect historical or mythical figure, because we are all human and to human is to err. The best that can be done is weigh their just acts by their unjust acts, and I find both Obama and the Clintons lacking in that regard.

Nikalajoga posted:

Some of y'all deciding to stan for Gaddafi.

Flavahbeast posted:

All presidents are war criminals and any citizen who votes for a winning candidate is complicit. You think Sanders will be any different? He defended Operation Cast Lead, he's not gonna stop droning the Taliban any more than the previous guy did. The only moral act for any American is to flee the country and die

Flavahbeast posted:

All presidents are war criminals and any citizen who votes for a winning candidate is complicit. You think Sanders will be any different? He defended Operation Cast Lead, he's not gonna stop droning the Taliban any more than the previous guy did. The only moral act for any American is to flee the country and die

Crowsbeak posted:

Hey, he is preferable to the mad max situation in Libya now.

stone cold posted:

who is a us politician whose fopo y’all approve of and if any of you say tulsi, stop posting forever

Nikalajoga posted:

Weird how you can claim to have developed politically in 10 years but stuff from 20 years ago is still meaningful.

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Do they have to be living because I’m going to pick Henry Harrison

stone cold posted:

you voted for a man who views women as objects to be grabbed by our genitals

so i guess what im saying is

Nikalajoga posted:

I don't think you can say that the Libyan Civil War would have ended easily and neatly without any lasting damage to the country if only Gaddafi had been allowed to slaughter all dissidents, to be quite honest. Maybe if you don't have a brain, a heart, or any courage.

I.G.Y. posted:

don't see anyone saying that stuff from 20 years ago isn't meaningful. and i've always been an anti-revisionist marxist-leninist so i'm pure as poo poo, and always correct politically

The Kingfish posted:

I voted for Bernie in the general.

stone cold posted:

Nikalajoga posted:

You obviously don't loving get what I mean. Do you know who Maximilian I of Mexico was?

The Kingfish posted:

Its not misogynist to denounce Hillary Clinton for being good friends with a war criminal. You bunch of loving freaks.

Neurolimal posted:

Yes, you're equating him to Gadaffi. It's downright naive to simply assume that beating back The Bad Guys will make things right. Anyone with eyes could see all the prospective warlords-in-training that came over for some violent tourism after he died. The answer there isn't 'do nothing' or 'stop him', it's 'stop him and heavily invest in rebuilding the nation'.

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Tecumseh's war was before he was a politician

Crowsbeak posted:

There would be damage, but there would actually be a country rather then the mess there is. This is on Obama, Hollande and Cameron.

Neurolimal posted:

Yes, you're equating him to Gadaffi. It's downright naive to simply assume that beating back The Bad Guys will make things right. Anyone with eyes could see all the prospective warlords-in-training that came over for some violent tourism after he died. The answer there wasn't 'do nothing' or 'stop him' and it's obscebe to suggest such. The third answer 'stop him and heavily invest in rebuilding the nation', was the correct one. In that regard Hillary and Obama failed spectacularly, and that should be a black mark on both records.

As for if Libya is better now or with Gadaffi, I'd rather that be left to libyans rather than forum pundits.

Nikalajoga posted:

Ah, you're one of the "homosexuality is bourgeois decadence" types, via terminal irony poisoning.


Ah, understanding of political mass action as ideally being driven by sentimentalist consumerism. Quite a Red Guard you are.

Neurolimal posted:

Washington, if only because America was still a lovely colony without the means to harm other countries at that point, and his exit speech warned of the effects of abandoning isolationism after obtaining a precarious freedom.

I.G.Y. posted:

yep anyone who is a communist is doing irony, says me a liberal with the political imagination of a walnut writing for vox.com

Condiv posted:

where is this even coming from?

Nikalajoga posted:

That's not guaranteed, no. You are assuming that dictators are better than representative governments, if crude about it.

Nikalajoga posted:

Oh, you're willing to go on record as endorsing Stalinist homophobia, lol.

Crowsbeak posted:

No. Just that he was better then the band of warlords who now control it. Also a great enemy of wahabist filth.

I.G.Y. posted:

yep you got me there. good debate move.

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

I don’t get why people harp on the Iraq War vote, necessarily, when the Afghanistan War vote was worse

Nikalajoga posted:

But you're presuming that he would have won the civil war quickly and effectively, instead of things degenerating into a long-lasting guerrilla war. These kinds of counterfactuals you propose to get your Muslim death boners over are just not automatically true because you believe them to be.