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doverhog posted:Finnish cops are trained to shoot for the legs, to wound. Can it really be too much to ask for the average citizen? Yes, it is too much to ask me to reduce my chances of survival in order to preserve the life of the person who is trying to kill me. Lurking Haro posted:So you are already physically struggling with the attacker? Yeah, if you didn’t want to be stabbed, why did you let that person get so close to stabbing you?
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Oct 28, 2017 17:46
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*shoots leg, nicks femoral* whoopsie
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Oct 28, 2017 17:48
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doverhog posted:Just a little while ago there was a terrorist knife man in Turku, Finland. The cops shot him in the leg and he lived to be interrogated. Can you tell me about the legality of the Punisher's gun-that-shoots-knives in these situations? Please be as detailed as possible. Bonus points if you delve into international law and not just Finnish.
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Oct 28, 2017 17:50
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Proteus Jones posted:Anyway, my takeaway is Euro laws are far more interested in protecting the perpetrators than the victims of violent crimes like home invasion. quote:What about people with a heart condition or COPD? Or any one of a myriad of conditions that preclude being able to elude an attacker? -e- Byzantine posted:*shoots leg, nicks femoral* whoopsie *get shot in chest, damaged spinal chord but survives, gets paid support by the *victim* for life* whoopsie Lurking Haro has a new favorite as of 17:56 on Oct 28, 2017 |
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Oct 28, 2017 17:51
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_6bmrqIsP8
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Oct 28, 2017 17:52
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Home decor for a new millennium: https://weburbanist.com/2013/02/05/self-defense-decor-3-furshings-fend-off-home-invaders/
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Oct 28, 2017 17:52
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If someone is trying to stab you just let it happen. You wouldn't want to risk hurting them by defending yourself, so it's easier to just die.
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Oct 28, 2017 17:57
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Proteus Jones posted:Anyway, my takeaway is Euro laws are far more interested in protecting the perpetrators than the victims of violent crimes like home invasion. The most American take. I agree it's a lot to ask of the victim, but I do think we put way put too much emphasis on protecting stuff over people. My old upstairs neighbor used to have a big scary assault rifle that blinked a light in your face to confuse you, even though he owned nothing of value worth killing a man for ever. It just bothered him someone might be in his space, and if they ever were HE WOULD KILL THEM, MOTHERFUCKERS. He had so many cameras and alarm systems there's no way someone would've gotten upstairs undetected, but just in case, BIG loving GUN in an apartment complex. Smart thinking, friend! Why do Americans think everyone's coming for their poo poo? I say this AS an American. Paranoia that people are gonna take our poo poo and we need to protect it is one of our biggest cultural identifiers.
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Oct 28, 2017 17:58
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Lurking Haro posted:gets paid support by the *victim* for life You guys are hosed up.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:00
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Proteus Jones posted:Yes, it is. When people are under extreme stress triggering an adrenal response, fine motor movement goes out the window. More so if they have minimal training since they have almost no muscle memory. Most people, hell even most cops, are lucky to even hit someone at all in confrontations. Of course that leads to situations where misses can be dangerous depending on ammo in use. Most defense against home invasion like that is best served with a shotgun. They are more interested in fostering a culture where shooting someone is never assumed to be acceptable. The best defense against home invasion is a robust social policy and welfare system so they happen less.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:01
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http://nationalpost.com/news/walt-wawraquote:
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Oct 28, 2017 18:06
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StrangersInTheNight posted:The most American take. Do you want the King of England coming in and pushing you around?
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Oct 28, 2017 18:09
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYwd0Wus5Ik&t=79s
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Oct 28, 2017 18:10
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Well he's a cop, they're trained to fear for their life from a gust of wind. Of course he'd freak out at a normal social interaction while unarmed.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:11
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RyokoTK posted:I mean, a more charitable take is that the laws put a much higher value on human life (even the life of the perpetrator) than the property being imperiled, since theoretically if dudes bust in through the front door with knives, you could leave out the back. The original post wasn't about a burglary, it was about a man menacing you with a knife. The guy is already up in your face, he's pulled a knife and is threatening you, and your biggest concern is making sure that you don't attack him with anything more powerful than his own weapon. What if I don't have a knife like his? Am I allowed to hit him with a hammer? What kind of hammer would have equivalent killing power to, say, a paring knife? What if he's much bigger than me and is only carrying a Swiss Army knife, but I'm much smaller than him and have a 16 pound sledge hammer? Then which one of us is at fault for the fight?
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Oct 28, 2017 18:19
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Reading this derail is self-harm, not schadenfreude.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:24
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Sagebrush posted:The original post wasn't about a burglary, it was about a man menacing you with a knife. The guy is already up in your face, he's pulled a knife and is threatening you, and your biggest concern is making sure that you don't attack him with anything more powerful than his own weapon. I mean, a knife does 1d4 damage and a hammer does 1d6, so you have to resort to an improvised weapon lest you out-damage him. And knives are finesse weapons so size doesn't really matter if you're nimble.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:25
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I once read about a guy who hurt himself breaking into a house and sued the homeowner because his injuries meant he wasn't able to do his job, and his job was breaking into houses. Probably fake, but I sort of want it to be true.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:27
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I'm going to murder this thread.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:27
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Make sure you only do it with shitposting so that there is no power imbalance
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Oct 28, 2017 18:28
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RyokoTK posted:I mean, a knife does 1d4 damage and a hammer does 1d6, so you have to resort to an improvised weapon lest you out-damage him. And knives are finesse weapons so size doesn't really matter if you're nimble. What if you have a little martial arts training and have a slight reach advantage against him? Would some DBZ-style weighted clothing make it a fair fight?
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Oct 28, 2017 18:28
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oh dope posted:I'm going to murder this thread. mods????
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Oct 28, 2017 18:28
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Sagebrush posted:The original post wasn't about a burglary, it was about a man menacing you with a knife. The guy is already up in your face, he's pulled a knife and is threatening you, and your biggest concern is making sure that you don't attack him with anything more powerful than his own weapon. It's very common for both people involved in a fight to be guilty of a crime. One started it and the other continued or escalated it.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:30
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Byzantine posted:You guys are hosed up. That's not the course of events in Europe 
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Oct 28, 2017 18:33
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doverhog posted:It's very common for both people involved in a fight to be guilty of a crime. One started it and the other continued or escalated it. If I punch you once for no reason and then you punch me back three times because you're angry and startled, who goes to jail?
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Oct 28, 2017 18:35
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Neither one goes to jail, but a few years down the line both will get some day-fines, assuming the cops showed up and the prosecutor bothers with the case.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:37
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The disproportionate force laws in Europe the generally just to stop exactly that, I'm not going to comment on Finland because maybe that really is just insane. In the UK you can defend yourself but not your property and you can use reasonable force. So if someone punches you in the face you can give them a beating to stop them but if you're clearly winning the fight you cannot just beat them to within a inch of their life because you feel like it. If someone breaks into your house and is coming at you then you could legitimately shoot them, but not if theyre running aways even with all your things, looking at you Tony Martin. So its not about you get stabbed once so you get to stab him once, its you get stabbed youre allowed to do enough to stop him stabbing you. Its really impossible to compare the US to Europe because they're such massive areas, like no European city is in the top 50 most dangerous cities in the world but some US cities are. That doesn't make Europe safer than the US but certainly some US cities are insanely dangerous for a developed country.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:49
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If someone tries to eyepoke me, but I put up my hand to block it, am I entitled to a free eye poke? Maybe with just one finger?
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Oct 28, 2017 18:50
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Wheat Loaf posted:I once read about a guy who hurt himself breaking into a house and sued the homeowner because his injuries meant he wasn't able to do his job, and his job was breaking into houses. There was a case of a burglar falling through a school's skylight and becoming a quadriplegic. The school's insurance settled, instead of going to full trial, though. Bodine vs Enterprise High School.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:52
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I just can't imagine the absurdity of paying a criminal for the inconvenience of getting injured while trying to steal from you.
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Oct 28, 2017 18:59
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Aramoro posted:The disproportionate force laws in Europe the generally just to stop exactly that, I'm not going to comment on Finland because maybe that really is just insane. In the UK you can defend yourself but not your property and you can use reasonable force. So if someone punches you in the face you can give them a beating to stop them but if you're clearly winning the fight you cannot just beat them to within a inch of their life because you feel like it. If someone breaks into your house and is coming at you then you could legitimately shoot them, but not if theyre running aways even with all your things, looking at you Tony Martin. So its not about you get stabbed once so you get to stab him once, its you get stabbed youre allowed to do enough to stop him stabbing you. This is how it works in the United States too, except in some states where they have the insane "shoot anybody at any time if they're on your property" sort of laws. You don't have to worry about how much force you're applying until you have clearly won the fight, and it is okay to respond to a guy attacking you with a knife by shooting him. If you pull your gun and he stops and runs away, though, shooting him in the back is no longer self-defense. Finland sounds like an insane place and the laws seem to be structured around everybody getting in drunken street fights every night or something?
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Oct 28, 2017 19:10
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Tip Shades posted:If someone tries to eyepoke me, but I put up my hand to block it, am I entitled to a free eye poke? Maybe with just one finger? No, you are obligated to call them a wise guy and maybe try to slap them. But be warned they may duck your slap resulting in your hitting someone else who wasn’t previously involved in the altercation.
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Oct 28, 2017 19:12
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Sagebrush posted:Finland sounds like an insane place and the laws seem to be structured around everybody getting in drunken street fights every night or something? From my simple understanding of Finland, this is probably the most accurate assessment.
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Oct 28, 2017 19:16
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doverhog posted:Finnish cops are trained to shoot for the legs, to wound. Bullshit. quote:Can it really be too much to ask for the average citizen? It's too much to ask for cops.
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Oct 28, 2017 19:20
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Aramoro posted:The disproportionate force laws in Europe the generally just to stop exactly that, I'm not going to comment on Finland because maybe that really is just insane. In the UK you can defend yourself but not your property and you can use reasonable force. So if someone punches you in the face you can give them a beating to stop them but if you're clearly winning the fight you cannot just beat them to within a inch of their life because you feel like it. If someone breaks into your house and is coming at you then you could legitimately shoot them, but not if theyre running aways even with all your things, looking at you Tony Martin. So its not about you get stabbed once so you get to stab him once, its you get stabbed youre allowed to do enough to stop him stabbing you. Yeah and that's fundamentally not too much different than in the US. The principle is that you cannot use deadly force to defend property (except in weird edge cases in certain states, like "at night in Texas"). You can always use force to defend your person. "Castle doctrine" or "stand your ground" laws are modifiers to that principle, which means that under certain circumstances and in absence of better information, you can assume that someone intends to do you harm and jump right up the force escalation pyramid to deadly force. So, someone walks into your unlocked front door, grabs your laptop, and starts walking away with it. You are not legally (or morally) justified to bean them with a baseball bat or shoot them. Someone kicks in your front door and starts running towards you (with your laptop next to you), you don't need to know for sure that he's not after the laptop and is there to hurt you, you are legally justified in assuming the worst and defending yourself with deadly force. Here is a comic with cowboys explaining all the self defense law principles in the US http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=864
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Oct 28, 2017 19:23
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Quit the derail and get back to work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpDpsHTGKVc
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Oct 28, 2017 19:26
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canyoneer posted:So, someone walks into your unlocked front door, grabs your laptop, and starts walking away with it. You are not legally (or morally) justified to bean them with a baseball bat or shoot them. What if they're a nazi?
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Oct 28, 2017 19:28
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Phanatic posted:Bullshit. Uh, I suggest you look into it, because it is true. Too much to ask? Maybe, but it is asked regardless.
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Oct 28, 2017 19:30
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Can't we just laugh at dumb people and animals falling down?
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Oct 28, 2017 19:30
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doverhog posted:Uh, I suggest you look into it, because it is true. Too much to ask? Maybe, but it is asked regardless. Bullshit. Cite or retract.
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Oct 28, 2017 19:30
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