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If it seems to branch off into two paths that quickly, why not disconnect them and try each one on its own? See if it trips and see what loses power. Replacing it with a normal breaker seems like a very bad idea here.
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Oct 23, 2017 17:27
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Vitalis Jackson posted:
To clarify, do you mean two romexs in the front box? If so, any idea what the load side goes to? Given the random but constant tripping, my guess would be that the problem was the breaker itself. If you have a ground and neutral making a connection somewhere it would trip an arc-fault breaker. You could disconnect everything in the exterior boxes except power feeding the outlet and see if it still trips (with the old GFI breaker). If it does, replace the GFI breaker or troubleshoot some more and try to make the arc-fault breaker work.
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Oct 23, 2017 18:09
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So my electrician friend opened up my wall to instal a new outlet off a light switch. He thought it was going to be a super easy job. What he wasn't counting on is that all the wiring coming into the box was in thick conduit. Apparently it's super weird for a wood framed residential building to have conduit like this in the walls?
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Oct 23, 2017 18:12
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Baronjutter posted:So my electrician friend opened up my wall to instal a new outlet off a light switch. He thought it was going to be a super easy job. What he wasn't counting on is that all the wiring coming into the box was in thick conduit. Apparently it's super weird for a wood framed residential building to have conduit like this in the walls? It's very rare to have conduit in residential walls as the wall covering (1/2" sheetrock or 3/4" wood) would be the fire barrier. If it's a short, straight run from existing switch box to new box, you can usually pry the knockouts out from inside the metal box and put the clamp part of the romex connector on the wire that you're feeding up to the light box (and then put the nut part of the romex connector on). edit: sorry, reread that friend opened up the wall, maybe doesn't apply Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Oct 23, 2017 |
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Oct 23, 2017 18:23
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Baronjutter posted:So my electrician friend opened up my wall to instal a new outlet off a light switch. He thought it was going to be a super easy job. What he wasn't counting on is that all the wiring coming into the box was in thick conduit. Apparently it's super weird for a wood framed residential building to have conduit like this in the walls? Certain jurisdictions require it, but unless you are in one, I don't see how existing conduit makes any difference since he would be hooking into the existing box just the same with nm or mc. Maybe I'm not thinking of something here, but as Blackbeer says, it should be simple.
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Oct 23, 2017 18:53
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glynnenstein posted:Certain jurisdictions require it See: Chicago.
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Oct 23, 2017 19:16
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Blackbeer posted:To clarify, do you mean two romexs in the front box? If so, any idea what the load side goes to? One romex (containing a hot, neutral, and ground wire) going to the front outlet. I also have to clarify about the back outlet; it has just one romex as well going into the box, but is spliced with two sets of wires--one set going to the outlet, one set going to the switch. I disconnected the switch wiring at the box entirely today to see if that helped any, since the switch appears to go to nothing. The power has been on for the breaker for about an hour now, and so far so good. I suspect it's a matter of time before it goes, though. As I think about this more I suppose the breaker could even be an AFCI and not a GFCI. There isn't any indication on the breaker regarding which it is; the test button is white, but I don't think there's an industry standard in that regard.
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Oct 23, 2017 22:09
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Vitalis Jackson posted:One romex (containing a hot, neutral, and ground wire) going to the front outlet. I also have to clarify about the back outlet; it has just one romex as well going into the box, but is spliced with two sets of wires--one set going to the outlet, one set going to the switch. I disconnected the switch wiring at the box entirely today to see if that helped any, since the switch appears to go to nothing. If it's old and protects exterior outlets, it's almost certainly a GFI breaker. You could try a new GFI breaker, just not one with arc-fault protection like the one you said you tried. A ground and neutral making contact will immediately trip an arc-fault breaker. Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 01:09
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kid sinister posted:See: Chicago. That's wild. I assumed you meant in the past before looking it up; can't believe builders/land developers haven't quashed this.
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Oct 24, 2017 01:25
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Blackbeer posted:That's wild. I assumed you meant in the past before looking it up; can't believe builders/land developers haven't quashed this. Hi, our entire city burned down a few years ago, we’re pretty paranoid about fires. also unions, our waste pipes still have to be cast iron too Plus, most new construction is multi-family anyhow; there aren’t a whole lot of developers slapping together lovely post-and-frame suburban-style tract homes cutting every possible corner to put the pressure on city hall to change the codes.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:07
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The situation: the electrical service to a friend's barn poo poo out, one of the poles went bad (the wire is damaged somewhere along its underground length) and the end result is that he just needs to run new wire. We dug a trench, it's like 250' long, and plenty deep. He was pissed that it failed in the first place, so he's considering over-doing his solution and putting the whole thing in conduit this time, AND using DB wire. That's a lot of conduit, though, like $500 worth. So the current question is: is he better off just putting the cable straight in the ground? If so, how does he avoid this happening again? Is there a particular backfill material he should use, like sand, or would the local soil we excavated be fine? Or should he stick to his guns and run all that conduit? The trench is all dug, it follows a slightly different path than the original, which was too shallow and crossed pretty much all his other utilities, but we're hoping for a little guidance on what's best to put in it to make sure this lasts forever, without wasting money at the same time.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:45
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Bad Munki posted:The situation: the electrical service to a friend's barn poo poo out, one of the poles went bad (the wire is damaged somewhere along its underground length) and the end result is that he just needs to run new wire. We dug a trench, it's like 250' long, and plenty deep. He was pissed that it failed in the first place, so he's considering over-doing his solution and putting the whole thing in conduit this time, Conduit means hopefully never digging a trench again, and you will need a backhoe to damage it. $500 well spent. Run ethernet while the trench is open.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:55
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Ethernet (and coax) are going to/from a different point at both ends, we went ahead and dropped a shallow trench for those while we were at it. Is DB wire okay in conduit like that? e: This would be 4/0 DB service wire. I'm assuming 4" conduit, but if smaller is okay, that'd be cool too. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 17:02
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4" conduit seems huge for the task. If you are going to use conduit, using DB wire is going to be very difficult to pull through 250'. (well, not so bad to pull through 4" conduit...) Individual wires are much easier to work with and pull through long distances. My recommendation would be to use smaller conduit 3/4" to 1.5". Lay the conduit, pull a rat through the conduit, and then pull three strands of 6 gauge. (A rat is just a plastic shopping bag balled up so it fills the conduit with a string tied to it, then use a wet/dry vac to suck the bag through the conduit.) Pulling a 2nd string through the conduit with the wires is nice to do--gives you the ability to pull more wires in the future, if needed. e: Slow poster... 4/0 DB wire is some thick poo poo. When wiring outbuildings, 6 and 8 is the largest I've used. 4" conduit still seems a bit large. When I'm working with DB cable it is normally the 6/3 or 8/3 stuff that doesn't like to flex. HycoCam fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 17:29
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Well, it sounds like he may have gotten over the conduit thing. Which is great, because just dropping the cable in the trench would be a hell of a lot easier and faster. :pHycoCam posted:e: Slow poster... 4/0 DB wire is some thick poo poo. When wiring outbuildings, 6 and 8 is the largest I've used. e: For clarity: the meter is on the pole, with an extended box below that has two 200A breakers. One goes to the 200A panel in the house, the other goes to the 200A panel in the barn. We're replacing the service to the barn. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 17:38
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Things didn't go as planned, but my bathroom finally has a place to plug things in! The blank plate is where the outlet was going to go but the conduit was in the way.
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Oct 24, 2017 17:56
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Bad Munki posted:Well, it sounds like he may have gotten over the conduit thing. Which is great, because just dropping the cable in the trench would be a hell of a lot easier and faster. :p Thinking more on the 4/0, I was going to suggest calling the power company and have them place a 2nd meter, but if the meter is already on a pole (vs side of the house)--I'm thinking the power company is a non-starter.
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Oct 24, 2017 18:11
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It may or may not be, depending on your utility. They may do it for a fee, if you relocate the meter base to the building, get it inspected, etc. Or they may not, you'll have to call them. There are also ways to find and repair the bad spot, unless he is determined to replace it. (Which sounds like it since the ditch is already dug) 4/0 AL and 2" pvc pipe would be my recommendation. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 19:00
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Baronjutter posted:Things didn't go as planned, but my bathroom finally has a place to plug things in! As long as there aren't any splices at that conduit you can just drywall over that hole you know.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:01
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ElCondemn posted:As long as there aren't any splices at that conduit you can just drywall over that hole you know. Plaster and lath is a pain to repair, the plate looks fine to me.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:04
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HycoCam posted:Thinking more on the 4/0, I was going to suggest calling the power company and have them place a 2nd meter, but if the meter is already on a pole (vs side of the house)--I'm thinking the power company is a non-starter. Having done exactly that at my OWN house, it would be largely irrelevant, since the owner is still on the hook for laying the new cable. angryrobots posted:There are also ways to find and repair the bad spot, unless he is determined to replace it. (Which sounds like it since the ditch is already dug) Yeah, we trenched AFTER calling every single place in town trying to find someone that was equipped to locate the problem.
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Oct 24, 2017 19:24
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When I put in new electrical conduit underground, the inspector forced me to lay a foot of sand on top before backfilling. It's supposed to give a warning to any future excavators. e: I had to put red tape on top of the sand too, yes.  vvvv SouthShoreSamurai fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 21:14
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Isn't that what the tape is for? As I understand it, it's (wire or conduit or whatever), 6" of backfill (or maybe it was 12"? I don't recall), warning tape, then the rest of the backfill. At least, that's what they had me do out here when I ran a new service to my shop. On a side note, it looks like we're back on the conduit thing. This is the wire he's getting: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sweetbriar-4-0-4-0-2-0-Aluminum-Urd-Service-Entrance-Cable-By-the-Foot/3129327 It says, "Can be directly buried or installed in ducts" and "Rated for 240 amps if used in ducts and 315 amps if direct buried," does that mean we're good putting it in (appropriately-sized, I checked the NEC tables) conduit? Not sure if they're using "ducts" as an overloaded term or whatever. If they are, then a 240A rating should be fine since we're just doing a 200A service, I'm just questioning the "duct" vs "conduit" terms. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 21:15
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Pvc conduit is one example of a duct, yes.
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Oct 24, 2017 23:14
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‘Kay. I had looked around and decided duct counted as anything that provided a route, vs conduit providing a route and protection, but wanted a sanity check just in case. 
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Oct 24, 2017 23:21
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angryrobots posted:It may or may not be, depending on your utility. They may do it for a fee, if you relocate the meter base to the building, get it inspected, etc. Or they may not, you'll have to call them. This is my recommendation, too. Don't mess with direct burial wire unless you're burying it directly. 4/0 THHN aluminum, in 2" or larger conduit.
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Oct 25, 2017 01:06
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:This is my recommendation, too. Don't mess with direct burial wire unless you're burying it directly. That goes for pretty much any bundled cable down conduit as well.
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Oct 25, 2017 01:11
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I ran 3x 6/0 THHN in 1.5" conduit for my workshop, and if I were to do it again I'd upsize the conduit by an inch or so. It fit, but only just; there definitely wasn't room in there for a fourth conductor (if I wanted 220V) or network cable or anything like that.
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Oct 25, 2017 01:14
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Are you even allowed to put network cable in there?
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Oct 25, 2017 01:44
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Bad Munki posted:Are you even allowed to put network cable in there? Yes, but conditions apply, and are not legal in all jurisdictions, etc etc.
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Oct 25, 2017 02:00
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Yes, but conditions apply, and are not legal in all jurisdictions, etc etc. I thought low voltage/communications and line voltage were forever to be separate, etc. etc? I guess that's in your caveat though. I'd certainly just add a second conduit while the trench is open.
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Oct 25, 2017 16:25
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Hubis posted:I thought low voltage/communications and line voltage were forever to be separate, etc. etc? I guess that's in your caveat though. This is what we did. But we only had to trench ~80 ft. 250 feet of a second conduit is probably more than he wants to spend.
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Oct 25, 2017 20:19
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And the data lines aren’t even going to/from the same place, it’s a totally separate path. Anyhow, we got it done. Shop has full power once again. Now he just has to backfill the trench, but that should go quickly, most of it was fairly loose soil.
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Oct 26, 2017 00:20
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Hubis posted:I thought low voltage/communications and line voltage were forever to be separate, etc. etc? I guess that's in your caveat though. Yeah they have to be separate. It's for safety and also prevents interference. That's kinda important for data. Ideally, you want at least some distance between the pipes. A foot should be fine. SouthShoreSamurai posted:This is what we did. But we only had to trench ~80 ft. 250 feet of a second conduit is probably more than he wants to spend. True, but low voltage doesn't need anywhere near as thick a pipe as power does, so there's some savings there. Edit: at 250', you're getting close to the maximum for a cat5e/6 data run, especially when you add in where the endpoints will be ran in their respective buildings. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Oct 26, 2017 |
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Oct 26, 2017 16:30
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kid sinister posted:Yeah they have to be separate. It's for safety and also prevents interference. That's kinda important for data. Ideally, you want at least some distance between the pipes. A foot should be fine. Run fiber! (I'm going to weasel out of missing that by saying I suggested ethernet.  ) Though there is technically ~75' of play, you are could run into problems using cheap consumer hardware, and connectors beyond 2x RJ-45 (patch panel for example) reduce the maximum run length slightly. This is all moot given I believe they said the data MPOE was the other corner of the building that is a mere 80' away.
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Oct 26, 2017 17:46
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Just wanted to ask about this light switch issue that I had earlier. I'm replacing the switch, and I plan on re-wiring the new switch so it's connected to the terminals, and not backstabbed. Which Mimesweeper told me requires some wire nutting: Only thing is I don't have enough black/hot wire in the light fixture. What kind of wiring do I need to buy in order to re-wire the light switch like this (and is my diagram even correct in the first place)?  Sorry to bring it back up, but I just didn't have a chance to revisit this issue at the time.
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Oct 29, 2017 18:59
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melon cat posted:
Diagram is correct. #12 solid copper (THHN). Looks like #12 in the pic to me anyway. If you don't have a place that sells it by the foot (you only need 4-5 inches) see if you can find someone w/ left-over 12-2 romex and cut a bit off that.
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Oct 29, 2017 20:33
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Blackbeer posted:Diagram is correct. #12 solid copper (THHN). Looks like #12 in the pic to me anyway. If you don't have a place that sells it by the foot (you only need 4-5 inches) see if you can find someone w/ left-over 12-2 romex and cut a bit off that. Yeah, hang out in a Home Depot and ask anyone in the electrical aisle if they have some scrap #12 solid since you only need a bit, most places won't sell that little but I always have a bunch of wire in my truck and I'd be happy to help someone out with a little piece.
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Oct 29, 2017 20:48
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Thanks for the wiring info, guys. I was actually at big orange a few days back and bought some wiring that I think might be the right stuff. The wire coating reads: SOUTHWIRE E23919 F (UL)/AWG 12 3.307mm2 CU TYPE THHN OR THWN 600 VOLTS GASOLINE AND OIL RESISTANT II  It sounds like it's the right type. Is it? It's solid. Not the strand-wire. \/ 
melon cat fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Oct 30, 2017 |
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Oct 30, 2017 02:44
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Yep, that's the stuff.
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Oct 30, 2017 02:46
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