|
MrL_JaKiri posted:It varies by what you're shooting at, so it's less "easy" and more "impossible" to summarise in one number. Final accuracy including tracking does, but the actual "accuracy" stat in the gun stats is functionally just a percentage mutliplier on the DPS, because a gun with 80% accuracy will always miss at least 20% of the time on an ideal target, so the DPS is damage x fire rate x accuracy, which is then situationally modified by the enemy's evasion and your tracking. If the accuracy stat isn't included in the DPS then that means some guns are punching well below their stated DPS even at an ideal target. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Oct 29, 2017 |
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 19:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 00:25 |
|
|
Baronjutter posted:I really hope wiz stands strong and makes the drastic movement/fleet changes needed to mesh with their long term improved vision for the game regardless of how people complain. I'm also sure paradox has metrics for what types of maps people play and probably see like 50%+ of people play hyperlane only and of the ones who don't only 10% think the lackluster implemented unbalanced 3-mode system is some core creative feature of the game. Wait, that’s kind of the opposite of what happened.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
Libluini posted:I've read those reasons many times and they don't make sense to me, so what is left after that? After I've discarded all logical reasons, nostalgia or other emotional poo poo is the only stuff left, after all. It's not nostalgia, I've never played MOO3 or any other game with lanes. The problem is that in Stellaris, the travel systems are hosed to the point where it's nearly impossible to catch enemy fleets unless you guess where they're going and cut them off. Meanwhile, defensive buildings are almost as useless as defensive armies, because it's trivial for 2 out of 3 FTL types to bypass them unless you blow half your resources building them loving everywhere. On top of that, there's no reason to go out of your way to grab a system unless it has a good planet or a particularly good set of resources, because location basically doesn't matter. Hyperlane-only solves all three of those problems by creating chokepoints. The fixed lanes make it far less of a crapshoot to predict an enemy fleet's path and send a fleet to block it, and by limiting the enemy's options for entering your space they also make for clear places to fortify with defensive stations. In hyperlane-only, players might even want to expand to systems specifically because of their value as a strategic chokepoint. Lanes aren't something that fits every game, but in Stellaris specifically, they offer some strategic depth that is just sorely lacking right now. I don't think the three FTL types were a terrible idea - there were a lot of possibilities there for tactical cleverness. But the current implementation of FTL travel, where fleets spend pretty much all their time either at the edge of a system or between systems, cuts out most of those possibilities because the only thing that actually matters right now is what direction you arrive in a system from.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 19:34
|
|
|
Ephemeron posted:Most of the fleets before 1.8 consisted of either naked corvettes or plasma cruisers, which is why Paradox looked at the metrics and deleted all other unpopular ships. Yeah, it's not like Wiz has talked about how he wishes the game had launched as hyperlanes only with the other FTL travel being techs or anything
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 19:41
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:it's nearly impossible to catch enemy fleets unless you guess where they're going and cut them off.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 19:42
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
I think the ideal way to do the 3 FTL types right now is to start with warp and make it annoyingly slow. Give wormhole generation to starports (with a rare tech) and hyperlanes are the classic 4x wormhole that connects distant systems as short cuts.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 19:46
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:
This is my experience as well. You guys keep saying the game is unplayable without hyperlanes and yet a ton of us play it just fine? The issue isn't that we disagree btw, it's that your solution is loving other people who disagree with you over instead of just keeping it as a map setting like it is now. Choice is good, removing options because of some opinions is not. Now if Wiz does go the lanes only route because it works under his new systems better, whatever, but stop acting like the way you enjoy the game is the only correct one because that poo poo isn't true. Mazz fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Oct 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 19:51
|
|
|
Mazz posted:This is my experience as well. You guys keep saying the game is unplayable without hyperlanes and yet a ton of us play it just fine? Nah. I played the game just fine with all three drive types. I just enjoy it the most as hyperlane only.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 19:53
|
|
|
Exactly. It's not that it's unplayable with wormholes or warp drives, it's just more fun with hyperlanes
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 19:57
|
|
|
binge crotching posted:Exactly. It's not that it's unplayable with wormholes or warp drives, it's just more fun with hyperlanes This doesn't mirror my experiences, which is where this gets annoying because it keeps getting stated as fact and leaving as it a map setting option isn't perfectly acceptable for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:00
|
|
|
Libluini posted:Ah gently caress, I keep forgetting the older games were different from the third one. Off the top of my head, you've missed off Ascendancy, Emperor of the Fading Suns, and Aurora (jump points being largely equivalent to star lanes) from this list. It's also a relatively common scifi trope. In your subsequent post you refer to 'logical' reasons for preferring star lanes. This is an odd choice of words, given we're effectively discussing preferred versions of electronic toys. However, if you want something that approaches logic on this point, I'd say it's preferable to have a single mode of FTL for a game in which races can be customised to the nth degree. SOTS races were built around their FTL type - humans had relatively weak ships but were fast because they used starlanes, whereas Hivers had tough-as-nails ships as they needed to be able to overwhelm whatever waited them on the far side of their long trek through space. To capture the same thing in Stellaris, you'd have to sign up to some kind of ship design philosophy and economy type as a consequence of choosing an FTL type - much of the scope to choose your own adventure would be lost. I would prefer hyperlanes, but I think the important point is that for a game like Stellaris a single FTL type is preferable - regardless of what it is - because then the game can be designed around it. For example, Stars! uses warp and a starbase-bound version of wormholes called stargates that allowed players to send ships up to a certain mass elsewhere in their empire, and fleets could either be directly intercepted on defence or caught in minefields. If you have three FTL types and you're not subject to bespoke drawbacks from using any particular one, you'll need three types of defence to achieve the same effect, which adds little additional player choice.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:00
|
|
|
Mazz posted:This doesn't mirror my experiences, which is where this gets annoying because it keeps getting stated as fact and leaving as it a map setting option isn't perfectly acceptable for some reason. It is a fact
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:02
|
|
|
Improbable Lobster posted:It is a fact So click the "hyperlanes only" setting in the settings. Congrats you got your wish without stripping out other game systems you don't like.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:08
|
|
|
Mazz posted:So click the "hyperlanes only" setting in the settings. Congrats you got your wish without stripping out other game systems you don't like. No.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:09
|
|
|
Well that makes it easy to not give a poo poo about anything else you have to say Mazz fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Oct 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:18
|
|
|
Aethernet posted:Off the top of my head, you've missed off Ascendancy, Emperor of the Fading Suns, and Aurora (jump points being largely equivalent to star lanes) from this list. It's also a relatively common scifi trope. The X series also, via artifical gates yes but still you have systems connecting to each other via a network of exit points.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:18
|
|
|
Libluini posted:I've read those reasons many times and they don't make sense to me, so what is left after that? After I've discarded all logical reasons, nostalgia or other emotional poo poo is the only stuff left, after all. "I don't share someone's opinions about how to enjoy a video game, therefore they're wrong and must be illogical!!" is an insanely arrogant argument to make, especially coming from someone who I recall not being able to parse a simple argument about Sector AI. Libluini posted:It matters because it's fascinating to see how those old games were programmed. And what the hell is programmatical purity? Is that really a thing, or did you made it up? You were arguing that it wasn't "proper" non-hyperlanes. OwlFancier posted:Final accuracy including tracking does, but the actual "accuracy" stat in the gun stats is functionally just a percentage mutliplier on the DPS, because a gun with 80% accuracy will always miss at least 20% of the time on an ideal target, so the DPS is damage x fire rate x accuracy, which is then situationally modified by the enemy's evasion and your tracking. If guns have different accuracy stats (which they do) then on anything but an ideal target you'll lose a different proportion of the DPS, and in a more complicated way than currently (multiply by effective accuracy, rather than divide by stated accuracy then multiply by effective accuracy). It would be nice to have some kind of calculator inherent in the UI ("This is dps against a naked corvette, this is dps against a naked battleship"), though
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:22
|
|
|
Actually Wormholes-only is the Correct way to play.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:24
|
|
|
Aethernet posted:Off the top of my head, you've missed off Ascendancy, Emperor of the Fading Suns, and Aurora (jump points being largely equivalent to star lanes) from this list. It's also a relatively common scifi trope. Don't forget the game that Stellaris might be most similar to - Sins of a Solar Empire. Also happens to be the perfect example of why hyperlanes only makes static defenses an option, can make terrain that matters a thing and still leaves room for techs that break the hyperlane only FTL scheme.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:27
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:If guns have different accuracy stats (which they do) then on anything but an ideal target you'll lose a different proportion of the DPS, and in a more complicated way than currently (multiply by effective accuracy, rather than divide by stated accuracy then multiply by effective accuracy). It would be nice to have some kind of calculator inherent in the UI ("This is dps against a naked corvette, this is dps against a naked battleship"), though True as guns with low accuracy are impacted more by losses due to evasion than guns with higher accuracy, assuming the same tracking. But it's still important to know whether the game includes base accuracy in the DPS calculations because it controls whether I have to mentally shave off a portion of the listed DPS.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:31
|
|
|
Mazz posted:Well that makes it easy to not give a poo poo about anything else you have to say I don't give a poo poo
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:34
|
|
|
I can't believe that other people have different opinions. What the gently caress..?
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:36
|
|
|
DatonKallandor posted:Don't forget the game that Stellaris might be most similar to - Sins of a Solar Empire. Also happens to be the perfect example of why hyperlanes only makes static defenses an option, can make terrain that matters a thing and still leaves room for techs that break the hyperlane only FTL scheme. I hope Stellaris cribs more from Sins (which looks to maybe be happening, with that one image shown of the -1000% shields system effect on neutron stars). Sins was probably the most playable and engaging "4x" (even if it was really just an RTS in 4x paint) from a MP standpoint, and it really excelled and innovated on the war and combat facet of space 4x games.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:40
|
|
|
turn off the TV posted:I can't believe that other people have different opinions. What the gently caress..? Big if true.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:42
|
|
|
Wooper posted:The majority of players like the same lame niche I do, and not the more interesting default setting. Yes, this is how it is. Having played this game for hundreds of hours, I’d definitely say that the default is only more interesting in theory than in practice. Lanes make warfare less tedious whack a mole. Boundaries have more meaning. Sometimes I think about playing non-hyperlanes only like I used to but I’ve yet to think of a tangible benefit to doing so.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 20:51
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:12
|
|
|
fleet trapped so what
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:18
|
|
|
I decided to play determined assimilators, it's kinda fun to be the guys everyone (except the 5 (!!) other machine empires that decided to spawn) hates So after the War in Heaven kicked off and I decided to go with the xenophobe empire, the entire league of un-aligned powers has spent the entire time trying to beat up on me, so my area is constantly growing from war gains while the two AEs keep taking the same planet back from each other Also I assimilated a spiritualist FE because they had like three planets and were next to me, so now I have somehow assimilated psychics into my empire (???)
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:20
|
|
|
 
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:28
|
|
|
Hyperlane only is popular because it allows depth of defense and makes it so you can actually determine where an enemy will come from and focus on that path. With the others there is no way to prevent enemies from instantly striking at the core of your worlds, sniping all of your frontier outposts and generally making GBS threads up your space while you try to play whackamole. It sucks. There are other ways to accomplish defensive depth and we will have to see what they come up with. I'm fine with hyperlane only simply being an option though and I will continue to run it exclusively until the dynamic changes. I expect there will be some kind of legacy mode even if the default changes so the triggered autists in this thread can probably calm down. Owned.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:29
|
|
|
ulmont posted:What was your problem with "I can never catch an enemy fleet if they can be heading for 6 different systems, and hyper lane helps me know where an enemy fleet has to go," again? That problem only exists in people's minds, after the first few times this happened to me I learned to avoid this happening. It baffles me that people can't actually learn the secret of attacking something the enemy has to defend, so the fleet will follow you instead of you having to hunt them down. I mean this solution is so obvious it should be one of the first things you do, right? MilkmanLuke posted:Or that hyperlanes are the only type that allow any sort of strategic depth? That was always wrong. It's more like that people like simplifying things and then rationalize it away instead of being honest. GunnerJ posted:The possibility that other people like something you don't makes less sense than nostalgia for at most two games, one of which is supposedly not very popular and the other of which is actually not a hyperlanes-only game? And this is just word salad, holy poo poo. Can you please rewrite this poo poo, since I can't even make out what your point is Anyway, I have nothing against people liking different poo poo, but this passive-aggressive "I hope they delete everything I don't like" is just bullshit, that's how I see it. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:34
|
|
|
Since I have to explain it, sure hyperlanes gives terrain or whatever but it also puts you way more at the mercy of map generation, like if one of those 3 occupied systems had spawned directly beneath instead of above you would be trapped in your 4 system start with literally no recourse until war or jump drives with no guarantees you had any resources or additional planets on those 4 systems. That basically gives you two options, restart the map or trudge along till you realize how hosed that start made you. That's flawed as gently caress. I don't care if y'all consider it the better game style or not, the point is that leaving it as a map option for people who don't agree with you is 100% the better choice because it doesn't affect your choice at all and leaves them with one. You are literally arguing "FY,GM" in a situation where it makes even less sense than normal. Mazz fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Oct 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:35
|
|
|
Libluini posted:And this is just word salad, holy poo poo. Can you please rewrite this poo poo, since I can't even make out what your point is Alternatively, you could learn to read.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:36
|
|
|
Your passive aggressive "everyone else is stupider than me" is really grating
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:36
|
|
|
The actual best FTL is wormhole and we need a way to build mobile generators on large ships so I can play as the Hiigarans On a more serious note, I gave my thoughts on potential FTL limits back before the conversation turned goons.txt, but I do just want to add my two cents that anyone having difficulty catching enemy fleets with any of the FTL types is either A) Incapable of reading, which is not surprising given the regular content of this thread, or B) Still tenaciously doomstacking despite how many times people have said DON'T DOOMSTACK in this thread for exactly this reason. Seriously, you can make all the points about strategic chokepoints you want to, those are valid, but if you can't catch a fleeing enemy hyper or wormhole fleet with three or four warp fleets you're just not being smart.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:39
|
|
|
The new border system mostly solves this (as in, it would be far more obvious when and how you can get cut off and be prepared for it). Slowboating would solve it completely even with current border mechanics (which is why most games with lanes include it in some form).
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:41
|
|
|
Improbable Lobster posted:Your passive aggressive "everyone else is stupider than me" is really grating It would be less grating if he wasn't a complete idiot
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:42
|
|
|
DatonKallandor posted:The new border system solves this. As would slowboating (which is why most games with lanes include it in some form). If Wiz changes it to lanes early because the new system supports it better, that's fine. It's basically a different game at this point. But a lot of people here keep insisting it's "the correct way" to play right now, which is laughable. Especially considering that, as a selectable choice, it both lets them play that way while giving the rest of us the option to choose. Mazz fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Oct 29, 2017 |
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
You know, if we weren't playing hyperlanes only in the 30's the Nazis wouldn't have cared so much about the Danzig corridor, and then we'd never have gotten the HoI games.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 00:25 |
|
|
Mazz posted:This is my experience as well. You guys keep saying the game is unplayable without hyperlanes and yet a ton of us play it just fine? No, I said the game is better with hyperlanes because it opens up a wider array of strategic options and choices for the player. It's certainly playable with all FTL types available, but then it's a lot harder to do fun moves like strategically boxing in a rival power by taking a chokepoint they'd need to move through, or tactically limiting them by heavily fortifying a border chokepoint.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2017 21:49
|
|