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Baronjutter posted:So if "destroying" a starbase occupies a system does that mean ground combat is gone? They said they also want fortress planets where you'd have to bring a shitload of armies to take it, because it might have an FTL inhibitor and thus prevent you from reaching your targets, and also that this might not make the cut, so for the most part it appears gone, yes.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:27
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The changes sound great as long as things like camping the hyperlanes exits from the side or behind and to exploit the lack of control over ship facing on entry, or surrounding the entrance to camp it and exploiting the same targeting/positioning of ships. I have faith in the dev team but it is a concern till we know more / can play it and try to break it. Basically so long as it doesn't lean too far into the defensive advantage side of things (especially which dumb stuff like the above), this is indeed a very cool step forward. The jump drive sounds like one way to fight this but there should probably be a couple more just as a precaution. This isn't a dev blog quote, until we know more it's the one concern I have because it would really gently caress up an otherwise great set of changes, at least for MP games) Mazz fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 17:29
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Wiz wrote a very diplomatic dev diary, almost everyone is sold on it because he really communicated why things have to be how they are in order to move forward and make the game better, it's just impossible to balance 3 asymmetrical movement types with Stellaris's unique gameplay problems. My hat is really off to Wiz for such a bold and uncompromising plan. The game should have shipped like that, without giving the players a year to potentially get attached to the existing bad system, but it didn't. Some devs would get all sunk-cost about their initial bad design and let a minority of change-averse players to hamstring their future development and force them into bad compromises in the name of legacy features. I hope Wiz keeps this bold bad-feature gutting ideology going forward! Next up, getting rid of planet grid micro and consolidating economic management onto the system level with each colonized planet acting as a slot or group of slots for buildings and pops in a way the AI can fully understand.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:30
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turn off the TV posted:You know, the more i think about this, the more enraged i get. I bought this game for the mutliple FTL, to be able to create different races using different tropes and different gameplay styles. People complain about this game being generic but this EXACERBATES that problem. Those of us who hate Hyperlanes are being told "The game you bought is no longer being supported." Why don’t you just play on 1.8 from now on? It’s not like they are deleting the current patch implementation.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:30
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Shadowlyger posted:Short version: First thing everyone will do is a pick up a mod to restore the old FTL functionality. Gotcha. Lmao yeah man everyone's gonna rise up against the tyranny of Wiz. It will be very dramatic.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:30
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Hahaha holy poo poo these dev diary thread meltdowns are pure gold, please keep posting them  You did good Wiz (and Team).
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Nov 2, 2017 17:30
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I do actually think the Jump Drive changes are a bit crufty and they should just be left as bullshit endgame super warp, but I like literally everything else about what's happening.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:31
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I love that dev diary, my god. Since I play Hyperlanes only all the time anyway the main thing I'm excited about is the wormhole stuff. In the board game Eclipse you can stumble across wormholes that open you up to new possibilities and I've always wanted that for Stellaris. Suddenly where they though their front was isn't and what if there's something terrifying on the other side? Plus the opportunity to have it set up with more than one galaxy. Amazing. It does make me want to watch Legend of the Galactic Heroes. I wish there was a way other than files, it's insane.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:32
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Hyperlanes start with other FTL options on research? Having to slow boat from one hyperlane exit to another’s entrance? I dunno why some folks think I’d be grumpy about that, it’s a drat fine change. In addition to adding some more techs to the tree, it expands defensive construction options and fleet maneuver strategy. It increases the micro management of fleet maneuvers from a galaxy screen only to galaxy and system screen. I’m always happy to have more options and methods to moving across the chessboard. My hope is having all pre jump FTL types as options on your fleets, allowing you to choose how to get from one system to the next. Being able to avoid a hyper lane exits defenses at the cost of greater charge time and slower FTL speeds seems like a pretty good trade off. And moving fleets via wormhole networks relatively instantaneously is a good way to both protect your assets and if necessary, bail on one of your systems if you find yourself out matched and on the defensive. If we can use all three FTL types without having to refit ships, it’d be a wet dream. This update is nothing but a goldmine. Edit: Just got home and loaded up the thing proper, no warp, it's shame, but understandable. And who knows, we might see warp come back as an early FTL option in a later update when it can be worked into the new FTL and geography system, we might not, but between the slider to increase the number of hyperlanes and the expanded geography of space, the point to point of jump drives allowing you to bypass hyperlanes but at the cost of reduced combat effectiveness until it recharges, and the gatways allowing rapid travel between your most strategic locations, it's not a bad change, hell, rolling faster hyperlanes and warp into Jump drives removes the old brokenly overpowered jump drives, and balances them with less advanced FTL methods. This is even better than my initial assumption, Cherryh cannot come soon enough. Technical Analysis fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 17:34
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wiegieman posted:I do actually think the Jump Drive changes are a bit crufty and they should just be left as bullshit endgame super warp, but I like literally everything else about what's happening. I'm also not too sure how much I like the jump drive changes. It sounds neat, but unless my mind blanked it sounds like I'll just use my jump drive at the start of a war to bypass whatever mega fortresses the enemy has been building. Someone will probably make a mod in a day or two to just make them turbo hyperdrives again.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:36
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In the lead up to the announcement when the writing was on the wall for things going hyperlane only the player base (or at least the ones who post on the internet about video games) seemed pretty divided and entrenched, I'm actually surprised how little drama there's been. It really seems like a ton of fairly die hard anti-hyperlane folks have been convinced or are at least going to give it a chance with an open mind and a little trust that the devs have a good reason for it all. At the same time I'm pleased there's at least a small minority in full "rrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeee hyperlanes OUT!!!!" mode because it's entertaining as hell. The super passive aggressive sad ones are the best though. "Oh, I guess I understand why the devs think this is best and most people will like it, but I guess this game just isn't for me anymore. Shucks I guess I'll save some money by never buying any more stellaris DLC. I guess this is the end of my involvement in this community guys... I'm leaving, I'm leaving because hyperlanes, bye, I'm going. Guys, guys look I'm quitting and I'm sad...." I love the posts like that so so much.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:38
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Personally I rather like the jump drive changes as stated, they're supposed to be for bypassing chokepoints which would be a massive shakeup considering the entire game is being rebuilt to promote space geography for the first 80% of the game. That seems like sufficiently end-game overpowered bullshit for rare techs at the top of the tree to me.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:38
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turn off the TV posted:I'm also not too sure how much I like the jump drive changes. It sounds neat, but unless my mind blanked it sounds like I'll just use my jump drive at the start of a war to bypass whatever mega fortresses the enemy has been building. Someone will probably make a mod in a day or two to just make them turbo hyperdrives again. It sounds like it can still be a risky maneuver that leaves you vulnerable. Especially with the sensor changes. Sure you can make a jump to bypass their "wall" but you may not have sight on where you're jumping into deeper in eny space and might just get clobbered when recovering from the jump. I like the tactical and tactical possibilities that will open up.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:41
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turn off the TV posted:I'm also not too sure how much I like the jump drive changes. It sounds neat, but unless my mind blanked it sounds like I'll just use my jump drive at the start of a war to bypass whatever mega fortresses the enemy has been building. Someone will probably make a mod in a day or two to just make them turbo hyperdrives again. Jump drives give your fleet a temporary combat debuff along with having a significant cooldown and if the anti-doomstack rumors are real it will lead to you fighting at a disadvantage when the enemy fleet catches you.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:41
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Baronjutter posted:So if "destroying" a starbase occupies a system does that mean ground combat is gone? I like the idea of troops but I hate the current troop/invasion system.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:41
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turn off the TV posted:I'm also not too sure how much I like the jump drive changes. It sounds neat, but unless my mind blanked it sounds like I'll just use my jump drive at the start of a war to bypass whatever mega fortresses the enemy has been building. Someone will probably make a mod in a day or two to just make them turbo hyperdrives again. That kind of needs to exist though or everything devolves into chokepoint doomfort battles, especially in MP games. It's like Total War sieges, they are fun, but not when they are the only thing you do every game. The best solution is make several ways of cracking the doomfort, either by bypassing it or reducing its effectiveness, but each with their own obvious drawbacks so jump drives can have a substantial CD and penalty period without having to find the exact line between too good and too bad. Adding terrain and defensive stuff is great, it just can't lean too far in that direction or you just created new problems instead of solving the old ones. I have total faith that Wiz and co can address this though, and the changes look great. Mazz fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 17:42
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Crazycryodude posted:Hahaha holy poo poo these dev diary thread meltdowns are pure gold, please keep posting them @Wiz I fear this will ruin the immersion and diversity of the game. It's like hey look culturally we are all different but for some reason scientifically we all find the exact same method of travel. That's like saying hey China has ricksha so every culture now can only use rickshas. This in and of is self, does not make sense. Even here on earth different cultures discovered and invented different travel methods. I hope that it will work well but this was one of my favorite things about this game. This is my favorite game and I even got my wife into it. I do hope that my fear is unwarranted and I am wrong
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Nov 2, 2017 17:42
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Crazycryodude posted:Personally I rather like the jump drive changes as stated, they're supposed to be for bypassing chokepoints which would be a massive shakeup considering the entire game is being rebuilt to promote space geography for the first 80% of the game. That seems like sufficiently end-game overpowered bullshit for rare techs at the top of the tree to me. But I imagine they leave you quite vulnerable to counter attack. They're probably good for getting past an all-static-defense based space maginot line that lacks depth, but if the empire also has a decent fleet that can quickly respond while you're recovering from your jump you're probably hosed. Like sure your 50k fleet just jumped past that 40k defense zone, but the enemy also has a 30k fleet somewhere. And if that 30k fleet is close by and is able to pounce during your post-jump period you might be fighting at a huge disadvantage, huge enough that their 30k fleet could seriously challenge your 50k. But if you knew that enemy fleet was on the other side of the galaxy or was busy fighting somewhere else, congrats you got behind their lines.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:43
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That thread is actually mostly petty polite and most people are open to the changes. Even most of the people that don’t like it at first seem to be pretty open to seeing how it works. That reaction from “grand strategy” player base means you’re doing a fantastic job Wiz.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:45
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I think Jump Drives will be excellent for gate snipes. If you can get behind their chokepoint and seize their gate, you'll be able to flood their space with your ships and bypass their forts entirely. Relatedly, I bet gates will be far from central forts and will require a fleet to defend - otherwise you could just disable it and prevent reinforcements coming in.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:46
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hobbesmaster posted:@Wiz I fear this will ruin the immersion and diversity of the game. It's like hey look culturally we are all different but for some reason scientifically we all find the exact same method of travel. That's like saying hey China has ricksha so every culture now can only use rickshas. This in and of is self, does not make sense. Even here on earth different cultures discovered and invented different travel methods. I hope that it will work well but this was one of my favorite things about this game. This is my favorite game and I even got my wife into it. I do hope that my fear is unwarranted and I am wrong It's weird when you think about it, because when you look at history, different cultures have never independently developed identical methods of propelling their ships unless you count sails, oars and poles.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:46
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So the only big megastructure type thing I can see that's still missing is hyperlane stabilizers. There's a hyperlane there, but it's too damaged to use - but if you find a destroyed stabilizer at either end you can restore it to rebuild the lane. Effectively a wormhole you have to repair to use. The wormhole science exploration mechanic also has tons of room for awesome rewards. There's already code for spawning new systems, so they can have wormhole exploration events that spawn new and wonderful/horrible systems on the other end that you can only reach through that wormhole. Congratulations you found a Fallen Empires secret treasure system! Congratulations you found the emergency armory of the Cybrex and woke it up!
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Nov 2, 2017 17:47
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hobbesmaster posted:That thread is actually mostly petty polite and most people are open to the changes. Even most of the people that don’t like it at first seem to be pretty open to seeing how it works. Yeah it's shockingly good. This is a community where people post about their inability to feel human because of an optional central american invasion being added to an optional content pack. Here wiz getting rid of one of the features that was heavily marketed as a defining creative part of the game and 99% of people are open minded if not fully supportive about it.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:48
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah it's shockingly good. This is a community where people post about their inability to feel human because of an optional central american invasion being added to an optional content pack. Here wiz getting rid of one of the features that was heavily marketed as a defining creative part of the game and 99% of people are open minded if not fully supportive about it. On the other hand... Stellaris was promoted to have different FTL Drives, this was one if not THE BIG Selling Point of this game. I bought this game and all addons because of this funktion. I even created a group with a dozen players to play every week mp and i never stoped to promote this game to new players.... But this... you where my heroes because you didnt choice the easy way all other companys are taking just hyperlanes, no you created a realistic universe with unequal ftl systems wich allow pros and contras... but this now... shame on you.. You destroyed Stellaris and planing on creating a new endless space clone.. i am so disapointed about this you cant imagine.. Just Yesterday i talked with friends about your game, and all agreed the biggest and uniquest part of your game was your FTLs.... I never saw a company so activ destroying his own brand i am so shocked.... Good Bye then have fun with your clone... I will not ask for a refound because you are not selling promoted parts of the game anymore.. it was fun but destroying the future of this game is ..i have no words...
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Nov 2, 2017 17:51
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hobbesmaster posted:@Wiz I fear this will ruin the immersion and diversity of the game. It's like hey look culturally we are all different but for some reason scientifically we all find the exact same method of travel. That's like saying hey China has ricksha so every culture now can only use rickshas. This in and of is self, does not make sense. Even here on earth different cultures discovered and invented different travel methods. I hope that it will work well but this was one of my favorite things about this game. This is my favorite game and I even got my wife into it. I do hope that my fear is unwarranted and I am wrong
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Nov 2, 2017 17:52
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Aethernet posted:I think Jump Drives will be excellent for gate snipes. If you can get behind their chokepoint and seize their gate, you'll be able to flood their space with your ships and bypass their forts entirely. EVE online mod now featuring gate camping and Death Star POS bashing for system control. 
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Nov 2, 2017 17:52
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turn off the TV posted:I'm also not too sure how much I like the jump drive changes. It sounds neat, but unless my mind blanked it sounds like I'll just use my jump drive at the start of a war to bypass whatever mega fortresses the enemy has been building. Someone will probably make a mod in a day or two to just make them turbo hyperdrives again. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if I wind up with a 'hyperlanes ONLY' mod, which switches off jump drives, which is how I play now. Spend your game building up good solid defenses and then the AI just goes past them. Bad feels, man.  Gates and natural wormholes can stay because they can be planned around.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:53
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Stellaris is going to be a lovely game until I can hijack an enemy ship and send in a crack team of armed commandos to storm an enemy starbase and turn off its weapons systems so my fleet can capture in uncontested, then sit on that base until I eventually win the game on a technicality.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:53
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turn off the TV posted:It's weird when you think about it, because when you look at history, different cultures have never independently developed identical methods of propelling their ships unless you count sails, oars and poles. Not as relevant to ships but also, the loving wheel. e;fb Truga fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 17:56
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Crazycryodude posted:Oh man that's a real spicy argument. Yes, different variations of "wheels on thing" is exactly comparable to casually breaking the laws of physics. China uses oval-wheeled trikes, eastern europe uses square wheels, Africa mostly uses track-based vehicles, and as we all know the south and central americans never even developed the wheel and instead get around in leg-based "walkers" which evolved from the primitive incan power suits. How can stellaris think aliens in a science fiction universe would all figure out there's pretty much one most-effective FTL method when history on earth proves otherwise what with our vast array vehicle locomotion types. Anyways, as a north american I'm going to work by going to the nearest trubechet depot and flinging my self off to work, it's a great travel method because it avoids choke points.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:56
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I wouldn't mind seeing (very slow) slow boating between any two systems. Especially if the game drew a 'destination' line from the fleet to the target like MOO. Then you could bypass a system, but the enemy would know you were coming and when you'd get there and be able to be ready for you.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:57
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Or prior to the wheel, horseback riding. Everyone knows the mongols were the only ones who figured out how to ride horses. All those other folks just reverse engineered the superior Mongolian horseback technology.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:58
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Wiz please let me have a special project to recreate the movie rogue one so I can destroy the enemy space fort with a single strike craft.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:59
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hobbesmaster posted:Good Bye then have fun with your clone... Why is it that people who're mad on the forums always use loads of elipsis, are really bad at spelling and say "Good Bye"? Beyond comedy "They're all Serbians" answer.
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Nov 2, 2017 17:59
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Saddling is a unique tech and only one civilization can research it, so the rest of the world was gated out of the cavalry unit once the Mongolians got it.
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Nov 2, 2017 18:02
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I am one of the hate hyperlanes only guys, but the change to ownership mitigates my biggest problem with it, and together with everything else it looks great. Hyperlanes only will also work better with multiple fleets i imagine, since there will be less paths to keep track off. I trust Wiz when he says they couldn't find a good way forward with the old FTL mechanics and i love how you aren't afraid to rip things apart and redesign it when needed. Please just find a good way to fix armies without killing them, dropping billions of bugs on planets should be fun and exist in a space game!
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Nov 2, 2017 18:02
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Baronjutter posted:So if "destroying" a starbase occupies a system does that mean ground combat is gone? I like the idea of troops but I hate the current troop/invasion system. I was thinking that we might get a ground combat remake this patch but I doubt it, it's more like they are putting it in the background before completely remaking them (like they did it with the AI crisis). Wiz did say he wanted to put FTL inhibitors on planets but I doubt that will happen before the great ground combat remake.
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Nov 2, 2017 18:04
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Hey, how is the sector governor AI these days? Still slow to exploit resources? Haven't played in about a year, and I'm at the point where I need to start claiming promising territory, be it with colonies or frontier outposts.
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Nov 2, 2017 18:05
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Fintilgin posted:I wouldn't mind seeing (very slow) slow boating between any two systems. Especially if the game drew a 'destination' line from the fleet to the target like MOO. Then you could bypass a system, but the enemy would know you were coming and when you'd get there and be able to be ready for you. Yeah that should be an option. Being RNG screwed is a thing with Hyperlanes so you need a slowboat option just in case (almost all games with hyperlanes do this).
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Nov 2, 2017 18:05
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Fellblade posted:EVE online mod now featuring gate camping and Death Star POS bashing for system control. unironically mbison-yes.gif
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