Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

SteelNeuron: Feb 23, 2017

Monsterracer - Last Friday at 6:23 PM
oh yes, wu jian is fun
cleavestabbing is fun
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:23 PM
name one person who's not a noob
Monsterracer - Last Friday at 6:23 PM
you
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:23 PM
well enjoy it while it lasts
wu is getting the proverbial axe of woe
we are probably moving heaven on earth to usk
and might find a home for lunge eventually
bhauth - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
what
Monsterracer - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
what about grand finale?
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
but those things are pretty good
Monsterracer - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
that's gonna stay, right?
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
usk will kieep grand finale, yeah
bhauth - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
Why would you nerf Wu Jian?
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
well, we're not
bhauth - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
Oh you mean you're removing them.
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
I don't think removal is the same as a nerf
bhauth - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
I like them tho. :frowning:
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:25 PM
I mean it technically is
Well every feature has its fans
bhauth - Last Friday at 6:25 PM
What's wrong with them?
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:25 PM
Wu is not especially well liked in its current incarnation, that's for sure

It was good while it lasted. Can't say I'm surprised.

Honestly, what pisses me off is the intellectual dishonesty. Wu Jian was liked, they nerfed it, refused every idea I gave for possible changes because they had a "different plan" for it, which turned to be letting it rot for a few months with no changes, and now it's getting removed because it is not well liked. Funny that in the conversation that ensues, the only two people that pitch in actually like the god. I really don't know who they mean when they say it's not "well liked" even in its current bad state.

Of course, when people did like it it wasn't because it was good, but because it was overpowered (nevermind that its win rate was below average). There is no pleasing them; getting a sizeable feature in is entirely about politics and being in the inner circle, not about what players like or game balance.

SteelNeuron fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Nov 1, 2017

# ? Nov 1, 2017 11:37

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# ? May 15, 2024 22:12

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

Nerf something to hell, �not well liked in its current revision, better axe it!!� -crawl devs

# ? Nov 1, 2017 11:39

SteelNeuron: Feb 23, 2017

Devlan Mud posted:

Nerf something to hell, �not well liked in its current revision, better axe it!!� -crawl devs

Not so much nerfing really, but the fact that they removed the connection between moves and the reason why you'd want to alternate between them, and now seem surprised that people only use Lunge and the other two are redundant.

Doesn't matter, I'm not going to argue any further, but this whole saga may be a good warning to prospective devs about the DCSS development process.

SteelNeuron fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Nov 1, 2017

# ? Nov 1, 2017 11:47

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

SteelNeuron posted:

Doesn't matter, i'm not going to argue any further, but this whole saga may be a good warning to prospective devs about the DCSS development process.

It's certainly convinced me not to be one.

RIP Wu Jian. Sorry it turned out like that.

Prism fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Nov 1, 2017

# ? Nov 1, 2017 12:56

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

This game has the worst devs.

# ? Nov 1, 2017 13:31

Zaodai: May 23, 2009; Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.

Fitzy Fitz posted:

This game has the worst devs.

While I think we've known this to be true for awhile, it's amazing to see just how dedicated they are to holding that crown.

# ? Nov 1, 2017 15:35

Kobold Sex Tape: Feb 17, 2011

someone make poschengcrawl, where every stupid idea for races, classes, mechanics, and monsters goes straight into the game with no thought to balance. pcb rules even though (or because) it's a bloated mess

e: basically i just wnat more games where i can play as an immobile sentient ring monsters who has to ride other monsters to move and attack

# ? Nov 1, 2017 19:02

Eela6: May 25, 2007; Shredded Hen

Let's make a fork and call it dungeon crawl dead horse!!

# ? Nov 1, 2017 20:13

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

Honestly if I had any desire or ability to dev for crawl I dunno why I'd deal with all the toxic personality bullshit involved in the actual dev team as opposed to just making my own fork, especially now that they've run out of stuff they're willing to work on with the game.

# ? Nov 2, 2017 01:32

Sojenus: Dec 28, 2008

i check every few weeks to see if someone has made a fork for crabcrawl and leave a little more heartbroken each time

# ? Nov 2, 2017 02:29

Samog: Dec 13, 2006; At least I'm not an 07.

if they aren't removing grand finale, which uskayaw ability are they removing

Samog fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Nov 2, 2017

# ? Nov 2, 2017 08:20

Samog: Dec 13, 2006; At least I'm not an 07.

SteelNeuron posted:

gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:25 PM
Well every feature has its fans

The thinking emoji.

# ? Nov 2, 2017 08:22

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Sad to see this game I enjoyed so much suffering like this.

What is there even left to look forward to now? Gnolls? That's cool but I'm sure they'll be accompanied with a bunch of other changes I didn't want like the Tomb "rework".

# ? Nov 2, 2017 08:25

Samog: Dec 13, 2006; At least I'm not an 07.

gnolls will eventually be removed after veterans complain that the latest change (reduced all aptitudes from -1 to -2) still left them overpowered

# ? Nov 2, 2017 08:39

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

Samog posted:

The thinking emoji.

# ? Nov 2, 2017 08:50

Luceid: Jan 20, 2005; Buy some freaking medicine.

Gammafunk, quite frankly, ftw. No other dude is strong enough and has enough sex on the reg to know which features, hell, which things in life are objectively good and bad like he and the incredibly smart and friendly developers behind Dungeon Crawl� Stone� Soup� do. Anyone else think magic dart and the head/feet slot have just been slowing this drat game down for the last 10 versions?

# ? Nov 2, 2017 09:14

Samog: Dec 13, 2006; At least I'm not an 07.

merging the head and feet slots into one slot increased player choice twofold. but to narrow them down even further to 0 slots... the player choice would be literally infinite

# ? Nov 2, 2017 09:43

HisMajestyBOB: Oct 21, 2010; College Slice

Every piece of equipment drains the player when remove. That creates way more interesting decisions.

# ? Nov 2, 2017 12:19

silentsnack: Mar 19, 2009; Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current President of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality.

Fitzy Fitz posted:

This game has the worst devs.

Pretty sure that ignominious award belongs to Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead.

Imagine if crawldev was run by one grognard who is so obsessed with 'realism' that in each revision he adds several new anti-fun/busywork features to a goofy post-apocalypse zombie-smashing roguelikeish sandbox sim game, on top of being a prick... but only rarely fixes broken/dysfunctional features, when he could be adding a swamp-rear end mechanic or giving a chance of accidentally castrating yourself while doing DIY cybernetics surgery.

# ? Nov 2, 2017 12:54

Chakan: Mar 30, 2011

Out of curiosity if you were to fork the game, what would be the spot for you? I think for most people it would be .19 because of QOL updates, but they would add back in a one or two small things because they enjoyed them?

# ? Nov 2, 2017 13:30

Elusif: Jun 9, 2008

What was the last revision that had Singularity?

# ? Nov 2, 2017 13:37

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

Which one had boulder beetles?

# ? Nov 2, 2017 13:51

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Here's the dev plan for 0.21 if anyone is interested (finally created 22 days ago). Dev pace is still glacial at the moment, so probably don't expect a release soon.

Recent changes on Trunk:
Air Elementals can now cast a mini-Tornado called Vortex. Intended to make them more threatening than the fast weaklings they previously were also it's secretly a fan of gales buff but don't tell the dev team that. Due to this, Sojobo now has rWind to not instantly die when summoning air elementals, and rWind is now displayed in the monster description screen so you can see if Tornado and Airstrike won't work against a target.

The Cloud Mage and Halls of the Hellbinder wizlabs (as well as the Hellbinder itself) got revamps to put them on par in difficulty with the other wizlabs, but also got increased quality of loot to compensate.

# ? Nov 2, 2017 14:10

Speleothing: May 6, 2008; Spare batteries are pretty key.

Chakan posted:

Out of curiosity if you were to fork the game, what would be the spot for you? I think for most people it would be .19 because of QOL updates, but they would add back in a one or two small things because they enjoyed them?

.18 or .19, make sure that rMut, Clar, Stasis, SustAb, and the yellow wands are in.

# ? Nov 2, 2017 16:13

Zaodai: May 23, 2009; Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.

Instead of removing stuff they consider too good (or not their pet project), they should simply make it so that to use that race or feature, you have to watch an hour long youtube video that is just the dev team ranting about what a stupid piece of poo poo you are, and how they personally hate you, the player, for not playing the game "correctly". Then it would direct you to a form you would have to fill out and that lets them know you accept their scorn on a personal level, and then you could have your precious "fun".

If you played on a web based client, the servers would append all your games on the scoreboard with racial and homophobic slurs so everybody would know you're a dirty fun-haver.

# ? Nov 2, 2017 16:27

Fitzy Fitz: May 14, 2005

I've written a relevant essay titled "On the Benefits of Choice in Game Design and Why 'Fun' is a Poor Metric"

You can find it here: https://pastebin.com/Msy9tvQw

# ? Nov 2, 2017 16:57

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

Fitzy Fitz posted:

I've written a relevant essay titled "On the Benefits of Choice in Game Design and Why 'Fun' is a Poor Metric"

You can find it here: https://pastebin.com/Msy9tvQw

A true masterpiece.

# ? Nov 2, 2017 16:59

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

Fitzy Fitz posted:

I've written a relevant essay titled "On the Benefits of Choice in Game Design and Why 'Fun' is a Poor Metric"

You can find it here: https://pastebin.com/Msy9tvQw

Well, I'm sold now. All hail the new flesh.

# ? Nov 2, 2017 17:15

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

SteelNeuron posted:

Monsterracer - Last Friday at 6:23 PM
oh yes, wu jian is fun
cleavestabbing is fun
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:23 PM
name one person who's not a noob
Monsterracer - Last Friday at 6:23 PM
you
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:23 PM
well enjoy it while it lasts
wu is getting the proverbial axe of woe
we are probably moving heaven on earth to usk
and might find a home for lunge eventually
bhauth - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
what
Monsterracer - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
what about grand finale?
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
but those things are pretty good
Monsterracer - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
that's gonna stay, right?
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
usk will kieep grand finale, yeah
bhauth - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
Why would you nerf Wu Jian?
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
well, we're not
bhauth - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
Oh you mean you're removing them.
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
I don't think removal is the same as a nerf
bhauth - Last Friday at 6:24 PM
I like them tho. :frowning:
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:25 PM
I mean it technically is
Well every feature has its fans
bhauth - Last Friday at 6:25 PM
What's wrong with them?
gammafunk - Last Friday at 6:25 PM
Wu is not especially well liked in its current incarnation, that's for sure

It was good while it lasted. Can't say I'm surprised.

Honestly, what pisses me off is the intellectual dishonesty. Wu Jian was liked, they nerfed it, refused every idea I gave for possible changes because they had a "different plan" for it, which turned to be letting it rot for a few months with no changes, and now it's getting removed because it is not well liked. Funny that in the conversation that ensues, the only two people that pitch in actually like the god. I really don't know who they mean when they say it's not "well liked" even in its current bad state.

Of course, when people did like it it wasn't because it was good, but because it was overpowered (nevermind that its win rate was below average). There is no pleasing them; getting a sizeable feature in is entirely about politics and being in the inner circle, not about what players like or game balance.

Weird. Weird. Weird! Weird. Weird! Really weird. Strange! Huh, weird. That's so weird. How peculiar. Who coul'dv

# ? Nov 2, 2017 18:54

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

strangling great ideas in the crib on a whim is my crawl dev way

# ? Nov 2, 2017 23:08

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

does gammafunk post here? if so, retire bitch

# ? Nov 2, 2017 23:13

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

We scared away all the devs by actually challenging their terrible decisions.

Floodkiller posted:

Here's the dev plan for 0.21 if anyone is interested (finally created 22 days ago). Dev pace is still glacial at the moment, so probably don't expect a release soon.

I don't see "fix Tomb" on that list :geno:

Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Nov 2, 2017

# ? Nov 2, 2017 23:19

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

Floodkiller posted:

Here's the dev plan for 0.21 if anyone is interested (finally created 22 days ago). Dev pace is still glacial at the moment, so probably don't expect a release soon.

Recent changes on Trunk:
Air Elementals can now cast a mini-Tornado called Vortex. Intended to make them more threatening than the fast weaklings they previously were also it's secretly a fan of gales buff but don't tell the dev team that. Due to this, Sojobo now has rWind to not instantly die when summoning air elementals, and rWind is now displayed in the monster description screen so you can see if Tornado and Airstrike won't work against a target.

The Cloud Mage and Halls of the Hellbinder wizlabs (as well as the Hellbinder itself) got revamps to put them on par in difficulty with the other wizlabs, but also got increased quality of loot to compensate.

Poor Wu Jian, they care so little about it they can't be bothered to even put the writeup into the plan

# ? Nov 2, 2017 23:26

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

cheetah7071 posted:

Poor Wu Jian, they care so little about it they can't be bothered to even put the writeup into the plan

He's getting sent to the farm upstate where the lava orcs frolic freely and perma-hasted.
Anyways I won a catte:

code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.20.1-1-g8b1a95d (webtiles) character file.

1573044 Lawman0 the Sabretooth (level 25, 57/139 HPs)
             Began as a Felid Berserker on Oct 31, 2017.
             Was a High Priest of Trog.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 3 runes on Nov 2, 2017!
             
             The game lasted 04:27:00 (75095 turns).

Lawman0 the Sabretooth (Felid Berserker)           Turns: 75095, Time: 04:27:01

Health: 57/139     AC:  5    Str: 18    XL:     25   Next: 43%
Magic:  23/48      EV: 43    Int: 10    God:    Trog [*****.]
Gold:   1257       SH:  0    Dex: 24    Spells: 24/24 levels left
                                        Lives:  0   Deaths: 8

rFire    + + .     SeeInvis +     - Unarmed
rCold    + + .     Gourm    .   (shield unavailable)
rNeg     + + .     Faith    .   (armour unavailable)
rPois    .         Spirit   +   (helmet unavailable)
rElec    .         Reflect  .   (cloak unavailable)
rCorr    .         Harm     .   (gloves unavailable)
MR       ++++.                  (boots unavailable)
Stlth    ++++......             D - amulet of guardian spirit
Regen    0.4/turn               S - ring "Lotij" {rF++ rN+ Dex+3}
MPRegen  0.4/turn               V - ring "Ulupsuga" {rC+ rN+ MR+ MP+9 Stlth+}

@: quick
A: no armour, no weapons or thrown items, stealth, claws 1, fangs 3, horns 1,
molten scales 1, see invisible, carnivore 3, speed 1, robust 1, screaming 1,
shaggy fur 3, slow metabolism 1, sharp paws
0: Orb of Zot
}: 3/15 runes: barnacled, abyssal, gossamer
a: Berserk, Trog's Hand, Brothers in Arms, Burn Spellbooks, Renounce Religion

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Lawman0/morgue-Lawman0-20171102-230923.txt

First win as a felid and first win in about two years. Trog is still Trog I guess and felids are still a trash garbage species that I'm glad I never have to play again.
Dunno lot of stuff changed, some QoL is still there and I don't have to worry about certain things now.
Just want to say that holy crap is the orb run more brutal now since the removal of resist mutation and cure mutation potions and the stengthing of the effects of the orb. I splatted both an ogre and human on the orb run recently so it's been a bit of a pain.
Felids feel a little better than when I last tried to ascend one since evocables have mostly gone handless.
Otherwise I don't really have that much to say about it. :toot:

Just 4 more species until greatplayer.

# ? Nov 3, 2017 00:34

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

Floodkiller posted:

Here's the dev plan for 0.21 if anyone is interested (finally created 22 days ago). Dev pace is still glacial at the moment, so probably don't expect a release soon.

Recent changes on Trunk:
Air Elementals can now cast a mini-Tornado called Vortex. Intended to make them more threatening than the fast weaklings they previously were also it's secretly a fan of gales buff but don't tell the dev team that. Due to this, Sojobo now has rWind to not instantly die when summoning air elementals, and rWind is now displayed in the monster description screen so you can see if Tornado and Airstrike won't work against a target.

The Cloud Mage and Halls of the Hellbinder wizlabs (as well as the Hellbinder itself) got revamps to put them on par in difficulty with the other wizlabs, but also got increased quality of loot to compensate.

This mostly looks really bad.
Food values could be reduced definitely though, maybe give carnivorous species an inefficient digestion mutation so they don't always run at engorged.

# ? Nov 3, 2017 00:43

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Wu jian upset the delicate balance of Crawl. We can't have powerful gods. *speedruns the game with Trog in less then an hour*

# ? Nov 3, 2017 00:45

Devlan Mud: Apr 10, 2006; I'll hear your stories when we come back, alright?

Internet Kraken posted:

We scared away all the devs by actually challenging their terrible decisions.

I don't see "fix Tomb" on that list

Right behind "Malmutate Reform," can't you see it???

# ? Nov 3, 2017 00:49

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

Internet Kraken posted:

Wu jian upset the delicate balance of Crawl. We can't have powerful gods. *speedruns the game with Trog in less then an hour*

Wu seemed weak to me

# ? Nov 3, 2017 01:09

Serephina: Nov 8, 2005; 恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー

Floodkiller posted:

Here's the dev plan for 0.21 if anyone is interested (finally created 22 days ago). Dev pace is still glacial at the moment, so probably don't expect a release soon.

Recent changes on Trunk:
Air Elementals can now cast a mini-Tornado called Vortex. Intended to make them more threatening than the fast weaklings they previously were also it's secretly a fan of gales buff but don't tell the dev team that. Due to this, Sojobo now has rWind to not instantly die when summoning air elementals, and rWind is now displayed in the monster description screen so you can see if Tornado and Airstrike won't work against a target.

The Cloud Mage and Halls of the Hellbinder wizlabs (as well as the Hellbinder itself) got revamps to put them on par in difficulty with the other wizlabs, but also got increased quality of loot to compensate.

My local version of crawl is .19.5, didn't even know .20 was out. Not that I particularly care, but I decided to take a skim of what they have planned:
-Removal of monster respawns, increased initial monsters with some awake
-Gui improvements regarding 'training targets' (?)
-Don't call Gnolls Gnolls, and also why is strong nose in the game (thankfully gammafunk's arguing against all of this)
-Wand stacking/merging. Remove scrolls of recharging.
-Swamp revamp via removal of frogs etc and stronger plant theme, new water generation
-Removal of Player Ghosts being discussed
-Removal of Food being discussed. Regardless, new UI for autoeating
-Council God still not good enough to add

All in all, it's really reinforcing the stereotype of streamlining the GUI while trying to find what can be cut. Also, as other just mentioned, those bigger reformation projects seem to be abandoned husks =/

# ? Nov 3, 2017 01:15

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# ? May 15, 2024 22:12

Yngwie Mangosteen: Aug 23, 2007

Lawman 0 posted:

Wu seemed weak to me

Yeah it was, but it was a cool idea that didn't come from within so it had to be taken out back and shot.

# ? Nov 3, 2017 03:31

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