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Rockopolis posted:That looks cool, it's like, a party faction? They're a PAC that supports progressives running as Democrats for Congress and wants to support people who primary centrist/corporatist Democrats from the left.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:34
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Iron Twinkie posted:So if I'm required to vote for the lesser evil, what about my time, what about my money? Campaigns need resources in order to succeed. If a terrible candidate, by virtue of being less terrible than the alternative, has a divine right to my vote, does that also entitle them to my labor and the contents of my wallet? Nope. But not voting leads to corporate control, see the past 40 years. Brony Car posted:Why do you think triangulation happened in the first place, though? Why was the Clinton style popular? Why did Carter and McGovern and Mondale all get blown out? I don't think Americans we thinking about it at all and that's why it's important we develop and support movements that advocate our more "out there" political goals so they become Common Sense. In the examples you asked about they were already giving up on labor in those elections from what I understand, and when labor failed to be energized by them, labor took the blame too. The way we end this is categorical rejection of corporate power in the Democratic party, if you go to Martha's vineyard that should be like going to Wall street for policy advice (it's the same people)
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Nov 3, 2017 15:34
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Your Boy Fancy posted:Again, what you want is going to take a very long time, and it’s a worthy undertaking. I want you to win. I want better candidates than I’ve got. If people put the work in, i think you’ll get those better candidates.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:35
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twodot posted:I feel pretty strongly that part of this work is "Not showing Democratic politicians that they can go out in public, say some racist stuff, and then get elected". If we demonstrate that running on Republican policies is effective, how can we expect them to stop chasing Republican policies? The current crop is going to do that anyway, we need to neutralize the mosquitos before they can spread the malaria.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:37
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RuanGacho posted:Nope. But not voting leads to corporate control, see the past 40 years. Keith Ellison's twitter av
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Nov 3, 2017 15:38
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RuanGacho posted:The current crop is going to do that anyway, we need to neutralize the mosquitos before they can spread the malaria. edit: Is this argument really just "old people are racist, nothing we can do about that, if we wait long enough politicians will be less racist purely through demographic shifts"?
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Nov 3, 2017 15:39
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twodot posted:I feel pretty strongly that part of this work is "Not showing Democratic politicians that they can go out in public, say some racist stuff, and then get elected". If we demonstrate that running on Republican policies is effective, how can we expect them to stop chasing Republican policies? Not showing up to vote gives the gop wins and demonstrates to all politicians that conservative ideals win seats. You have this completely backwards.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:41
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twodot posted:And the future crop is going to deviate from a demonstrated to be effective tactic, because why? Because we've started to put the twodots together and had an epiphany about what's been going on. No, it's primary them now, every time, until theyre purged.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:41
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Potato Salad posted:Not showing up to vote gives the gop wins and demonstrates that conservative ideals win seats. You have this completely backwards. Not voting/write ins - demonstrates conservative ideals win seats Voting for a conservative - demonstrates conservative ideals win seats Voting for a Democratic politician openly endorsing conservative ideals - this one somehow doesn't demonstrate conservative ideals win seats? Did I miss any? Because if those are actually my options, then I'm choosing accelerationism.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:43
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Your Boy Fancy posted:Downticket. I know a good chunk of people that stump for their delegate, or for the LG. I posted a bunch of House of Delegates candidates that you can donate time/money to back last week. And those are the people who get highways widened and such. Oh I agree that that if there's something on the ballot that is beneficial or someone that represents you then vote for it but why should that entitle the top of the ticket to your vote? RuanGacho posted:Nope. But not voting leads to corporate control, see the past 40 years. From where I'm sitting, voting the lesser evil the last 40 years is what got us here.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:44
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The place to pull the party left is the primaries. Not voting cedes ground to conservative ideals and gently caress. Maybe if you get more leftist officers into the DNC, we will be able to keep future Hillary 2.0s from hijacking the party's operations two years in advance of an election again.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:44
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twodot posted:So our options are: Yeah, you still have it completely wrong and probably aren't going to be deprogrammed by a lefty footsoldier like me over the internet.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:45
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I never said this would be easy guys, you're going to have to do more than vote on election day, and make sure there's people who suck less in every race instead of going "oh well someone with a D next to their name is in the race guess I can stop paying attention now" The GOP is literally the party of death cult and entropy, you need to make Dems care about more than that, its not enough to just tut and nod about evil and Nazis are bad.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:46
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And accelerationism, by the way, is a childish coward's way out, every time.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:47
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Vote for the lovely Democrat because they're not as bad, then get active and harass them until they give in and behave. Vandalizing their poo poo, jeering at their speeches, be disruptive and make their life hell. It's like a strike. Striking is rude - so be rude.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:49
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Potato Salad posted:And accelerationism, by the way, is a childish coward's way out, every time.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:51
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i hope VA doesn't have a large latino population because supporting Gestapo raids is going to tank Northam's support among that demographic
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Nov 3, 2017 15:52
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how about, racists don't get democratic votes? why is racism not a line in the sand for the democratic party? why are you guys advocating rewarding a racist shitbags with your votes? vote for someone else
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Nov 3, 2017 15:54
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Politicians still respond to base pressure after election. My state's republicans gradually drift ever rightward with their base. Activism and public sentiment got the Dems to formally endorse gay rights and shift left on other issues as well. The Medicaid/Medicare Public Option is now pretty standard among candidates in the Midwest and elsewhere. I'm not saying Northam will don the guise of Pancho Villa and conduct a guerilla war against ICE if elected, but he'll be a hell of a lot easier to push leftward than a Republican gently caress who gets his bread buttered by the denizens of hell.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:54
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twodot posted:I feel pretty strongly that part of this work is "Not showing Democratic politicians that they can go out in public, say some racist stuff, and then get elected". If we demonstrate that running on Republican policies is effective, how can we expect them to stop chasing Republican policies? Here’s the thing - is he racist, or is he a coward? I think he’s a coward. The ads spooked him and he tried to triangulate, not realizing there’s nothing to triangulate to in the last week of an election. It’s really the worst thing he could have done. Now the question becomes whether that erases everything else he did. I’m not sure it will.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:54
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Your Boy Fancy posted:Here’s the thing - is he racist, or is he a coward? a coward who enacts racist policies out of cowardice is cold comfort to the people his racism affects how about sending a strong message to the dems that gwb voting racists are not welcome in the dem party?
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Nov 3, 2017 15:56
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Internal polling might show him pretty far down on that issue as well, which would explain his reaction.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:56
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twodot posted:I'm fine being a coward if I think that's the best way to achieve my goals. If we're discussing cowardice though, I feel like endorsing Republican policies in a general election, because you think your only opportunity to shift the party left is at a primary booth is much higher on the scale. I know you don't get involved with your state or national reps from this post, otherwise you'd know just how much influence a small timer with a coherent message and cultivated progressive allies can wield at local officer, state rep levels, and even with your house rep.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:57
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twodot posted:So our options are: You're being deliberately obtuse and ignoring the fact that this election is a two-step process. You missed the primaries. You're also being a complete loving idiot and equating "openly endorsing some conservative ideals" with "openly endorses all/most conservative ideals". So yeah, even in your loving idiotic point where you skip an integral part of the process, you're still wrong. Voting for a Democratic politician who is openly endorsing some conservative ideals does send a message: that having weaker, or fewer, conservative ideals wins seats over being more radically conservative. Its still a leftward pull of the general election. How people can look at politics in the last two decades and not see that the far-right success of turning out aggressively in the primaries for the far-right candidate and then holding their nose for the less-but-still-right-wing candidate in the general has worked really well at shifting discourse rightward boggles my mind. That they then can see that and refuse to do the same is somehow even worse. Also, I'm glad you're well-off, white, and male enough to do fine under Republican rule.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:57
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how much farther right will northam slide under conservative pressure? he sure as gently caress won't slide left cause you guys will vote for him no matter how racist he becomes
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Nov 3, 2017 15:58
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Grammarchist posted:Politicians still respond to base pressure after election. My state's republicans gradually drift ever rightward with their base. Activism and public sentiment got the Dems to formally endorse gay rights and shift left on other issues as well. The Medicaid/Medicare Public Option is now pretty standard among candidates in the Midwest and elsewhere. McAullife governed more left than he campaigned.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:58
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Rockopolis posted:Vote for the lovely Democrat because they're not as bad, then get active and harass them until they give in and behave. Vandalizing their poo poo, jeering at their speeches, be disruptive and make their life hell. This is the correct opinion. Condiv posted:how about, racists don't get democratic votes? why is racism not a line in the sand for the democratic party? Because handing another governorship to Trump, especially one as horribly racist as Gillespie, is beyond stupid.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:00
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Harrow posted:I can't go in for accelerationism, so the school of thought that says the Democratic Party should just collapse to nothing so a new party can take its place really doesn't appeal to me. The decades of nearly-unchallenged Trump/GOP rule that would cause just aren't worth it for the vague hope that maybe a true labor party would rise from the ashes some day. Putting aside any talk about accelerationism or new parties or the plethora of other abstracts and hypotheticals to take our minds off the depressing realities of this awful country, it's entirely possible that the democratic party is collapsing in upon itself for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with the way people do or do not vote. If what the allegations Brazile makes about allocation of DNC funds under Obama rings true, then the party's been hosed on a very basic level for a while, now. For obvious reasons people focus on how this relates to the Democratic presidential primaries, and it belies a much more massive problem that no one has any idea how to deal with.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:00
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Talmonis posted:Because handing another governorship to Trump, especially one as horribly racist as Gillespie, is beyond stupid. so is handing the governorship to a racist fuckstain cause he has a D next to his name. vote for someone else
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Nov 3, 2017 16:01
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Rockopolis posted:Vote for the lovely Democrat because they're not as bad, then get active and harass them until they give in and behave. Vandalizing their poo poo, jeering at their speeches, be disruptive and make their life hell. This is basically how you make change real and improve lives.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:01
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Rockopolis posted:Vote for the lovely Democrat because they're not as bad, then get active and harass them until they give in and behave. Vandalizing their poo poo, jeering at their speeches, be disruptive and make their life hell. It's this! Though I'd add also, don't just use a stick. Reward them for good actions. Call in and express your thanks. Show up and cheer. Use both tools, because they do 100% notice. A republican in office? Will tell you to gently caress off every single time. Even the shittiest Democrat who only listens to popular base pressure one time in ten is still a huge gain, and they listen a lot more than that, when you and people like you, gentle thread reader, bother to stay engaged beyond a half hearted vote or failure to vote in the general election.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:02
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Quorum posted:It's this! why am i rewarding them for being bad then
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Nov 3, 2017 16:03
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Raskolnikov38 posted:why am i rewarding them for being bad then Voting isn't a reward, it's the bare minimum action to put someone in who is capable of being influenced, as the post I'm responding to made quite clear.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:05
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Your Boy Fancy posted:Here’s the thing - is he racist, or is he a coward? Ravenfood posted:You're being deliberately obtuse and ignoring the fact that this election is a two-step process. You missed the primaries. You're also being a complete loving idiot and equating "openly endorsing some conservative ideals" with "openly endorses all/most conservative ideals". So yeah, even in your loving idiotic point where you skip an integral part of the process, you're still wrong. Voting for a Democratic politician who is openly endorsing some conservative ideals does send a message: that having weaker, or fewer, conservative ideals wins seats over being more radically conservative. Its still a leftward pull of the general election. Potato Salad posted:I know you don't get involved with your state or national reps from this post, otherwise you'd know just how much influence a small timer with a coherent message and cultivated progressive allies can wield at local officer, state rep levels, and even with your house rep.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:06
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Raskolnikov38 posted:why am i rewarding them for being bad then the people advocating for "using a stick and carrot approach" will never do so because they are drat afraid to use the stick. primarying? no, too scary, might let a republican win. criticizing? no too scary, we need to stay unified or trump wins. protesting? no, too scary, people protesting is how trump won. the posters advocating toeing the party line will never stop advocating for toeing the party line. and the party line will drift further rightward with their help
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Nov 3, 2017 16:07
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Pop quiz: how many minorities and low income people is it worth hurting to show your distaste with a dumb Democrat? Show your work.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:09
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Potato Salad posted:This is basically how you make change real and improve lives. At the expense of hurting others
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Nov 3, 2017 16:10
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my bony fealty posted:Pop quiz: how many minorities and low income people is it worth hurting to show your distaste with a dumb Democrat? extra credit: how many minorities should democrats allow to be rounded up before they should no longer be voted for
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Nov 3, 2017 16:10
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my bony fealty posted:Pop quiz: how many minorities and low income people is it worth hurting to show your distaste with a dumb Democrat? Pop quiz, how many minorities and low income people would actually benefit from Northam being elected instead of just getting more of the same status quo? You have to give people a reason to vote FOR you, not just AGAINST the other guy. How in the gently caress have you all not figured this out yet? You can't just assume you have the voter base out of some sense of obligation, you have to inspire them. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 16:11
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my bony fealty posted:Pop quiz: how many minorities and low income people is it worth hurting to show your distaste with a dumb Democrat? how many minorities and low income people is it worth hurting to enable the dems to drift further rightward? oh yeah, it's hurt a ton of loving low income people and minorities and now we have the fascist orange in charge of the country
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Nov 3, 2017 16:12
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