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I'm assuming NOVA's Democratic base is pretty moderate. Has that changed since the Trumpening? I know several boring Democrats with a bipartisan fetish that have shifted leftward around my parts in response to 2017, but I'm not familiar with that demographic at all.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:12
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twodot posted:Ok, so take away here is that it doesn't matter who you vote for, it's way more effective to influence already elected politicians regardless of their policies? Nope! It's okay, this class is graded on a Pass/Did Not Pass scale, so if you eventually get it you'll do fine
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Nov 3, 2017 16:12
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Condiv posted:so is handing the governorship to a racist fuckstain cause he has a D next to his name. vote for someone else Who? The Libertarian? Because he's all that's left, because voting for Gillespie would be much worse than voting for Northam, and there are only three options. WampaLord posted:Pop quiz, how many minorities and low income people would actually benefit from Northam being elected instead of just getting more of the same status quo? Given a choice, do you think those people would prefer the lovely status quo, or something even worse? And yes, I know the answer is "neither," but in this specific election, that is no longer an option. WampaLord posted:You have to give people a reason to vote FOR you, not just AGAINST the other guy. This is 100% correct. But I think the question now is: what's the right thing for an individual voter to do if nobody has successfully done that? Harrow fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 16:14
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also, it's amazing you guys are now trying to pretend voting for a racist is helping minorities. next you'll claim voting for a KKK member is ok cause his opponent's a nazi
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Nov 3, 2017 16:14
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Condiv posted:how much farther right will northam slide under conservative pressure? he sure as gently caress won't slide left cause you guys will vote for him no matter how racist he becomes If six weeks of ads is all it takes for him to buckle, imagine what a unified left could push him towards.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:15
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Harrow posted:Given a choice, do you think those people would prefer the lovely status quo, or something even worse? And this is the problem in a nutshell, that choice is all we offer them instead of trying to actually develop policies that could help the working class and give them a real choice that might actually get them voting. Harrow posted:This is 100% correct. But I think the question now is: what's the right thing for an individual voter to do if nobody has successfully done that? Obviously if someone asks me "Should I vote or not?" I'm going to say yes, but we're talking about mass turnout issues here, not individual voters.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:15
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Harrow posted:Who? The Libertarian? Because he's all that's left, because voting for Gillespie would be much worse than voting for Northam, and there are only three options. i'd write in perriello
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Nov 3, 2017 16:15
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Condiv posted:so is handing the governorship to a racist fuckstain cause he has a D next to his name. vote for someone else This ideological purity poo poo will get people killed, full stop. There's no proof that Northam is remotely as toxic as he's being painted as.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:16
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Your Boy Fancy posted:If six weeks of ads is all it takes for him to buckle, imagine what a unified left could push him towards. too bad you won't stand against him at any point. cause doing so means threatening him, and doing that means risking his electability in future elections
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Nov 3, 2017 16:17
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Talmonis posted:This ideological purity poo poo will get people killed, full stop. There's no proof that Northam is remotely as toxic as he's being painted as. this lesser evil strategy is getting people killed, full stop it has led us straight into this dumpster fire situation where we have an orange pissbaby idiot in control of the country and it won't stop until people stop enabling it
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Nov 3, 2017 16:18
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WampaLord posted:And this is the problem in a nutshell, that choice is all we offer them instead of trying to actually develop policies that could help the working class and give them a real choice that might actually get them voting. That's all totally fair, and I completely agree that if Northam loses, he has nobody but himself to blame (and if the VA Democratic Party thinks he's doing the right thing, they also have nobody but themselves to blame). I agree that he's likely severely hurt his turnout by appealing to racists, and that it's going to make it a lot harder for people campaigning for him to get people to go vote. I mean the whole thing is an utter bullshit situation and it's relentlessly depressing that we're so often only given the choice between "maintain a status quo that sucks" and "burn it all down and make everything even worse."
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Nov 3, 2017 16:18
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Condiv posted:i'd write in perriello Yeah vote for the pro-life candidate, that'll drag the dems left
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Nov 3, 2017 16:18
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Talmonis posted:This ideological purity poo poo will get people killed, full stop. There's no proof that Northam is remotely as toxic as he's being painted as. I mean, depending on how twisted your media consumption has become in the last two years, you could absolutely believe 💯% that he's among the worst people alive. The theory I've developed on the really, really bad wolves in sheep's clothing itt is that they're reading just enough toxic waste that they instinctively think of a certain framing to find when reading news from outside their waste foundries such that their analysis of events is essentially preordained. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 16:19
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Condiv posted:next you'll claim voting for a KKK member is ok cause his opponent's a nazi  I love how being willing to sign a ban on sanctuary cities is somehow equivalent to being a KKK member.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:20
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Office Pig posted:Putting aside any talk about accelerationism or new parties or the plethora of other abstracts and hypotheticals to take our minds off the depressing realities of this awful country, it's entirely possible that the democratic party is collapsing in upon itself for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with the way people do or do not vote. If what the allegations Brazile makes about allocation of DNC funds under Obama rings true, then the party's been hosed on a very basic level for a while, now. For obvious reasons people focus on how this relates to the Democratic presidential primaries, and it belies a much more massive problem that no one has any idea how to deal with. Pretty much. We now know that the DNC was operating as a wholly owned subsidiary of the Clinton campaign before the primary even began. How am I supposed to have any faith in any future Democratic primaries? At what point is the party too gnarled and rotted to save? The other day, the AFL-CIO made a break with the Democrats and are withdrawing support. I know that this will go over well, but maybe that's the direction we need to go. The DNC is already on the ropes so maybe we should encourage other unrepresented groups to follow suit until the DNC either actually represents those groups or completely dies out and something new takes it's place.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:20
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Talmonis posted:
no it's equivalent to being a racist shitstain. and you're perfectly fine with that, and will keep voting dems forever no matter how awful they become.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:22
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WampaLord posted:Pop quiz, how many minorities and low income people would actually benefit from Northam being elected instead of just getting more of the same status quo? AND YET HERE WE ARE.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:24
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Talmonis posted:
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Nov 3, 2017 16:26
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DACK FAYDEN posted:If you had asked this about T-Mac before he was elected, the answer we gave would not have been "approximately 200,000 convicted felons will get their voting rights restored". Yes. Virginia Democrats tend to campaign to the center and govern to the left. And while how you campaign matters and you should make your voices heard about it, how you govern matters more. Ask any leftist about Campaign vs President Obama.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:27
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Your Boy Fancy posted:If six weeks of ads is all it takes for him to buckle, imagine what a unified left could push him towards. making him switch party affiliation to the republicans?
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Nov 3, 2017 16:30
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Condiv posted:no it's equivalent to being a racist shitstain. and you're perfectly fine with that, and will keep voting dems forever no matter how awful they become. It's saying stupid, racist poo poo in a campaign in a sad attempt to get VA independants to vote for him. So long as he responds to pressure (which involves more than pithy snubs from tankies or poetry slams) from the party and his base and does what he's told by the base, I don't give a gently caress what he said to get elected. But enjoy the Gillespie using the state police to round up immigrant families, I'm sure everyone will appreciate your moral stand in convincing people to not vote for Northam.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:31
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Raskolnikov38 posted:making him switch party affiliation to the republicans? remember when a recently elected, lesser-evil democrat did exactly that? whoops
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Nov 3, 2017 16:32
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Genuine question for YBF and anyone else who's been on the ground in VA: has there been specific targeted effort towards those 200k restored righters to get them registered? How were they even informed, a letter saying 'grats you have voting rights again?' Seems like a place where organizing could fall through the cracks since those folks probably weren't in any existing outreach database.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:32
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Quorum posted:Yes. Virginia Democrats tend to campaign to the center and govern to the left. And while how you campaign matters and you should make your voices heard about it, how you govern matters more. Ask any leftist about Campaign vs President Obama. This is what you don't understand about the dead-ender leftist crowd. For them, how you campaign matters much MORE than boring poo poo like how many felons get their voting rights back. These people are motivated exclusively by opportunities for self righteous caterwauling, and these opportunities are created mostly by superficial nonsense like campaigns. What matters is getting to feel morally superior and telling others about that feeling. A leftist would rather have a "pure" candidate who does nothing than a less pure candidate who does a lot of good things because of how the pure candidate makes them feel.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:32
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Iron Twinkie posted:Pretty much. We now know that the DNC was operating as a wholly owned subsidiary of the Clinton campaign before the primary even began. How am I supposed to have any faith in any future Democratic primaries? At what point is the party too gnarled and rotted to save? The other day, the AFL-CIO made a break with the Democrats and are withdrawing support. I know that this will go over well, but maybe that's the direction we need to go. The DNC is already on the ropes so maybe we should encourage other unrepresented groups to follow suit until the DNC either actually represents those groups or completely dies out and something new takes it's place. I should probably make it clear that a whole lot of this could be cleared up if Perez were more open with the DNC's finances, but I get the feeling that isn't about to happen any time soon.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:33
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DACK FAYDEN posted:If you had asked this about T-Mac before he was elected, the answer we gave would not have been "approximately 200,000 convicted felons will get their voting rights restored". Did he ever spout nativist bullshit like always having opposed sanctuary cities? Because from what I remember, his anticipated bad aspect was being overly business-friendly. Talmonis posted:But enjoy the Gillespie using the state police to round up immigrant families, I'm sure everyone will appreciate your moral stand in convincing people to not vote for Northam. This is exactly what Northam said he'd also do, you utter dipshit.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:33
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Talmonis posted:It's saying stupid, racist poo poo in a campaign in a sad attempt to get VA independants to vote for him. So long as he responds to pressure (which involves more than pithy snubs from tankies or poetry slams) from the party and his base and does what he's told by the base, I don't give a gently caress what he said to get elected. But enjoy the Gillespie using the state police to round up immigrant families, I'm sure everyone will appreciate your moral stand in convincing people to not vote for Northam. ah so it's ok for dems to say a whole bunch of racist poo poo in their campaigns now as long as it gets them elected and yeah, i'm sure he'll bow to your pressure, since you're willing to vote for him no matter what. hell, i bet he could do a bunch of racist poo poo in office and you'd still vote for him in the next election
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Nov 3, 2017 16:36
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Voting is the floor of Civic engagement. It's the bare minimum. If that's all you do, you can't expect much but if you do nothing else then vote. You can note vote if you are engaged in other areas. But lesser evilism is fine if you are doing the bare minimum since the Republicans are such a clown show of evil.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:36
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Talmonis posted:
Yes?? It's racist as hell
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Nov 3, 2017 16:37
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Condiv posted:this lesser evil strategy is getting people killed, full stop Condiv posted:and yeah, i'm sure he'll bow to your pressure, since you're willing to vote for him no matter what. hell, i bet he could do a bunch of racist poo poo in office and you'd still vote for him in the next election Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 16:38
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Condiv posted:too bad you won't stand against him at any point. cause doing so means threatening him, and doing that means risking his electability in future elections The governor is term limited to one and done. You’re assigning future actions on the basis of assumptions and bad data. You’re kinda showing your rear end here.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:39
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Your Boy Fancy posted:The governor is term limited to one and done. You’re assigning future actions on the basis of assumptions and bad data. You’re kinda showing your rear end here. lol so there's literally no incentive for him to change tracks based on protesting
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Nov 3, 2017 16:40
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Ravenfood posted:Hey, how did not voting for Clinton as a protest vote work out for you? beautifully. i don't have to say i voted for clinton, my vote didn't cause her to lose, and i sent a message to the dems by voting for gloria la riva. i also got to vote for a socialist for once instead of voting for a lesser evil poo poo dem, and it felt real good
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Nov 3, 2017 16:41
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my bony fealty posted:Yeah vote for the pro-life candidate, that'll drag the dems left I'm going to add to your point here. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/tom-perriello-is-not-bernie-sanders/ quote:A central question of the primary campaign will be whether he can overcome that record. While in Congress representing the conservative Virginia 5th (Perriello beat a longtime incumbent, a Republican, to get to Congress, and since he lost, the seat has returned to GOP hands), he voted for the Stupak-Pitts Amendment to the Affordable Care Act, which would have banned using federal funds to subsidize health care plans that covered abortions. In a January Facebook post, published the day after he entered the race, Perriello said he regretted the vote. “I have always been pro-choice and a supporter of Roe v. Wade,” he wrote. “[I] pledged at dozens of public meetings that I would support health care reform only if it was consistent with the Hyde Amendment. I believed at the time that voting for the Stupak amendment was the only way to meet that pledge.” You see, defence of human rights deserves a pragmatic pass, guys, there's no way that we can actually stand up for your rights in this world, amrite? (huge /sarcasm tag here for the guys so programmed thay they would gleefully quote this as a face-value endorsement of monstrously awful moral compromise) It's so telling that Condiv would post saying he's write this guy in...as part of an ongoing rhetorical thrust about purity. Talk a big talk, then write in a candidate with a record for doing what you criticize the Dems for doing. Maybe he doesn't actually believe what he says, or hasn't put in enough objective thought and introspection on this to stand up to even a little scrutiny before inconsistencies start eeking out. If the defence Condiv pulls out here is, "Well I didn't know that, you can't expect me to put in that much research for a candidate I agree with so thoroughly that I want to write him in," maybe he should consider doing a little research outside his loving awful pool of media intake.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:42
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lol so there's literally no incentive for him to change tracks based on protesting Actually the opposite; basically all governors run for senator down the line, but they don't get the benefits of incumbency when doing so and are thus incentivized to govern well and have something to run on, since they can't just avoid rocking the boat and coast. (This is basically why T-Mac has been so good, he wants to be popular when he runs for Senate.) It's about the only good argument I've seen for this dumb system.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:42
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Your Boy Fancy posted:The governor is term limited to one and done. You’re assigning future actions on the basis of assumptions and bad data. You’re kinda showing your rear end here. he's gearing up for a senate run after this and you'll back him there too cause he's electable and i'm basing what i've said off of interactions with lesser-evil cowering dems in the past. i've brought up primarying bad dems who were doing lovely things and i got a bunch of "no it'll weaken them and then the republican will get elected  ". criticizing dems is also frowned upon cause trump has to be beaten at all costs. and you guys will keep on doing the same thing. claim you'll vote for the racist and then hold him to account, then shy away from doing later
Condiv fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 16:42
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Tiberius Christ posted:Yes?? It's racist as hell You folks are certifiable. A lovely policy that enforces federal law, which has bad effects on people is terrible enough on its own. But if you keep equating it to advocacy for ethnic cleansing and cross burning white supremacy, you just make yourselves look loony. Ravenfood posted:Hey, how did not voting for Clinton as a protest vote work out for you? I'm guessing a raging chub that hasn't gone down since the election, due to the self righteous sense of pride.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:43
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Talmonis posted:You folks are certifiable. A lovely policy that enforces federal law, which has bad effects on people is terrible enough on its own. But if you keep equating it to advocacy for ethnic cleansing and cross burning white supremacy, you just make yourselves look loony. lmfao its not like ICE has been trying their damnedest to become the next Einsatzgruppen since Trump was elected
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Nov 3, 2017 16:44
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Condiv posted:so it's ok for dems to say a whole bunch of racist poo poo in their campaigns now as long as it gets them elected No one is saying it's ok
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Nov 3, 2017 16:44
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Condiv posted:remember when a recently elected, lesser-evil democrat did exactly that? whoops This is a bad example. West Virginia’s party situation and voter make-up is not the same as what you find in Virginia. West Virginia as a whole is way more conservative and Democrats are solidly in the minority there. Also, Justice was a Republican before 2015 and switched since he could not run as a Republican against Bill Cole and he ran as a first time “outsider”. Northam, for all his faults, is not the same kind of politician and not beholden to the same kind of pressures. He has more to lose by displeasing his own party. He’s not going to switch or turn into a mainstream Republican and he’s limited to one term anyway so a party switch would be pretty meaningless.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:44
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