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Condiv posted:last time i argued for mandatory voting (and mandatory paid holidays for voting) i got yelled at for pages for being unrealistic. maybe that's why Why would that stop you? You literally get that all the time over other things. Mandatory voting is a policy, something concrete and actionable, and in place in other parts of the world. If you believed what you purport I would thinkm you would not give up so easily.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:12
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twodot posted:Yes, demonstrating this is a bad bet is a good idea. We won't get any traction in Democratic circles if our vote is taken for granted. Yes, it's a great strategy to destroy any semblance of party unity and common purpose, so that when the left takes power all the moderate democrats won't feel an ounce of guilt when they vote republican. Condiv posted:the amount of people who think the dems should stick to the center are a tiny minority that are over-represented. hence why we have so many dem voters who don't vote, and so many voters who don't vote. people are hungry for leftist politics right now, and the first roadblock is literally the dem party at the moment. This is laughably false. https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/4eegg8ofj2/econTabReport.pdf#page156 26% of democrats think the Democratic Party isn't liberal enough 49% of democrats think it's about right 11% of democrats think it's too liberal 13% of independents think the democrats are not liberal enough 11% of independents think it's about right 39% of independents think it's too liberal 23% of black voters think the democrats aren't liberal enough 39% of black voters think it's about right 13% of black voters think it's too liberal 16% of Hispanic voters think the democrats aren't liberal enough 23% of Hispanic voters think it's about right 27% of Hispanic voters think it's too liberal
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Nov 3, 2017 19:13
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JeffersonClay posted:I think it's ridiculous to assert that raising the federal minimum wage by 5 dollars is meaningless but raising it by 7.50 is a vital measure to bring out the populist base. I refuse to believe a significant number of democrats are as dumb as you. Given the technocratic emphasis on marketing this shouldn't be too surprising since it is a framing issue. If there is an active movement called Fight for Fifteen and you undercut them by saying "how about 12?" Why would they trust you at all. The mass line is from the people to the people. If you want excited people, listen to what they want. It isn't neoliberal triangulation.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:14
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Potato Salad posted:Holy poo poo that privilege though JeffersonClay posted:Yes, it's a great strategy to destroy any semblance of party unity and common purpose, so that when the left takes power all the moderate democrats won't feel an ounce of guilt when they vote republican.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:17
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Maybe you should stop conflating "not moving left fast enough" and "not moving left". We can argue about the former but the latter just ain't true.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:19
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How many DSA members think the Democratic Party should be more liberal?
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Nov 3, 2017 19:21
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Potato Salad posted:It did not. Labour did well because Corbyn is Upbeat Charismatic Generational Statesman Obama.co.uk. Corbyn's hobbies are literally jam making and photographing manhole covers, ya monumental dingus. The man's the most boring dude on the planet, and the reason Labour is resurgent is its ideas and not because jam grandpa is some kind of supercharismatic smooth operator. People are responding to him because it turns out that Socialism is popular once you're not afraid of actually pitching it to people. Also the only way to really be accelerationist from the left in US politics is to support the dem establishment, and hence the continued dominance of the GOP.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:23
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If you are trying to negotiate away from a $15 minimum wage and free college before it even makes first contact with Republicans, then you fundamentally don't believe in those things and are pretending otherwise for electoral reasons.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:26
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It's really scary how much easier it is for Republicans to fall in line behind people they ostensibly hate to get their policies through and stack the state and federal courts/districts in their favor. I was raised in that environment and told to ignore Palin for that reason. It terrifies me that if chips had fallen differently I would have been voting Trump for the good of the party and justifying it by the Democrats being simultaneously "just as bad" and "too idealistic". I still see this with people I grew up with who look for any failing on the part of the democrats as an excuse to vote republican, even if they disagree with 90 percent of what the GOP actually does in office. I guess it helps that everyone in that environment gets their marching orders from a very select few media sources fueled by a singular resentment against the vague Mainstream Media and colleges.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:29
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Boon posted:Why would that stop you? You literally get that all the time over other things. because there's a lot more basic stuff we have to agree on before we get to mandatory voting being something people agree on. i haven't given up on it, its just other things are higher priority
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Nov 3, 2017 19:32
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Iron Twinkie posted:If you are trying to negotiate away from a $15 minimum wage and free college before it even makes first contact with Republicans, then you fundamentally don't believe in those things and are pretending otherwise for electoral reasons. Same but for $20 minimum and getting paid to go to college.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:38
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Condiv posted:because there's a lot more basic stuff we have to agree on before we get to mandatory voting being something people agree on. i haven't given up on it, its just other things are higher priority In the context of the conversation, this is such a cop out
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Nov 3, 2017 19:40
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JeffersonClay posted:Same but for $20 minimum and getting paid to go to college. "lol US isn't Scandinavia there's only four people there" and all that, but you do realize this is a thing some industrialized nations do, right?
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Nov 3, 2017 19:42
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Boon posted:In the context of the conversation, this is such a cop out This is a really weird line of argument and it doesn't work very well. Feel free to start arguing for mandatory voting, I don't think you are gonna get a lot of pushback.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:44
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Cerebral Bore posted:Corbyn's hobbies are literally jam making and photographing manhole covers, ya monumental dingus. The man's the most boring dude on the planet, and the reason Labour is resurgent is its ideas and not because jam grandpa is some kind of supercharismatic smooth operator. People are responding to him because it turns out that Socialism is popular once you're not afraid of actually pitching it to people.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:47
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I would love to see a “mandatory response” proposition. You get sent a postcard, and have the option of not voting, but you are required to check a box to that effect below your candidate choices. At least in a Downsian sense this is nearly equivalent to mandatory voting since you’ve removed the costs associated with the act, and it’s far more politically marketable in the US.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:48
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twodot posted:If it turns out that Republicans actually have a supermajority, and the moderate Democrats have just stuck in the party out of tradition, then I guess that's democracy, but I don't think it's true. My point here is "democrats need to do what I want or I'll throw elections to the Republicans" is a strategy moderates could just as easily use against a Democratic Party which has moved away from the center, and their threat would actually be twice as effective because votes flipping from D to R are twice as harmful as votes that fip from D to 3rd party. Rappaport posted:"lol US isn't Scandinavia there's only four people there" and all that, but you do realize this is a thing some industrialized nations do, right? Yes, I realize this, which is why I think it's dumb to point to compromised policies like free college and a $15 minimum as examples of pure dedication to principle. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 19:49
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Nevvy Z posted:This is a really weird line of argument and it doesn't work very well. Feel free to start arguing for mandatory voting, I don't think you are gonna get a lot of pushback. edit: JeffersonClay posted:My point here is "democrats need to do what I want or I'll throw elections to the Republicans" is a strategy moderates could just as easily use against a Democratic Party which has moved away from the center, and their threat would actually be twice as effective because votes flipping from D to R are twice as harmful as votes that fip from D to 3rd party. twodot fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 19:49
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That said, when making comparisons between the Tea Party and their influence on the GOP, and doing something similar on the left with the Democrats, that the Tea Party's platform largely aligns with that of capital, or can be made to. You can't really say the same for the left. For all the belly-aching the Tea Party was and is very status quo.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:49
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Boon posted:In the context of the conversation, this is such a cop out how so? like what do you want from me right now boon? Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 19:53
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twodot posted:I don't think anyone is ever really opposed to mandatory voting, just that for it to work at all, we would need to do a bunch of other stuff (real voting holidays, better mail in voting, undo literally all voter suppression laws) which we should do independent of mandatory voting, so it doesn't really make any sense to advocate for mandatory voting before doing the rest of it. Also if we do do all that, it's very possible that participation rates will raise high enough that it's not worth chasing the X% of people still not voting. This is true of all sweeping structural change though, it's not unique. UHC, trade agreements, et... nothing is in a vacuum. The difference is that such a structural chaange affects all the rest but the opposite is not true.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:54
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quote:16% of Hispanic voters think the democrats aren't liberal enough  I blame my uncle, people like him are that 27% and they are The Worst. Mandatory voting seems like it would be a nightmare in a country with going on 350 million people, millions of whom are poor and afraid of authority. How do you punish not voting? You can’t force people to be a part of the process unless you have a method of punishing them for refusing. Are we willing to fine or jail poor people who don’t want to vote? Doesn’t Oregon do some business where they mail you your ballot, some informational material, and a stamp to mail it back with and get great numbers? You’d have to figure out how to engage with the homeless but that seems like a better system imo.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:56
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Boon posted:This is true of all sweeping structural change though, it's not unique. UHC, trade agreements, et... nothing is in a vacuum. edit: Lightning Knight posted:Doesn’t Oregon do some business where they mail you your ballot, some informational material, and a stamp to mail it back with and get great numbers? You’d have to figure out how to engage with the homeless but that seems like a better system imo. twodot fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 19:57
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Lightning Knight posted:
tbh, i'm more on the side of mandatory paid voting holidays everyone has those days off to vote or not vote, but it's illegal to pull them into work. too many people right now have to choose between working and voting
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Nov 3, 2017 19:58
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Condiv posted:tbh, i'm more on the side of mandatory paid voting holidays I mean, that would work. I just don’t see the wisdom in requiring people to vote as opposed to lower the barrier to entry as much as possible and focusing more on a civic culture that helps people understand politics and voting from a young age. Creating a system where advanced voting and mail-in voting is as accessible as possible would also help those tied to work.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:03
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australia has mandatory voting, and also tons of poor people with horrible educations who live in the outback, and they are sitting around 90% participation. you can mail-in vote but you need to apply in advance
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Nov 3, 2017 20:12
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Wife is sending me articles about Brazile backtracking and how they got the years wrong. Apparently, they're saying that the public has already seen the Joint Fundraising Agreement because it was in the Wikileaks dump. I know some shady poo poo happened in the primary, but I don't know what to think. I doubt Brazile's publishers would've gone through the hassle over something so easily disprovable, but Cruz and Huckabee get to publish bullshit all of the time. I just don't know. What am I missing? https://www.dailykos.com/stories/1712377 This one had waaay too much venom for me. https://deepstatenation.com/primary-error-donna-brazile-mixed-up-two-different-clinton-dnc-agreements/ https://twitter.com/ahumorlessfem/status/926249997376638976
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Nov 3, 2017 20:16
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes, it's a great strategy to destroy any semblance of party unity and common purpose, so that when the left takes power all the moderate democrats won't feel an ounce of guilt when they vote republican. Ah yes, so what does liberal actually mean though? If the question is "is xparty too liberal/conservative, Or is it just right". Nothing added to like "Do you think party x should support a change to healthcare system". "Do youthink party x should fight for dual use bathrooms in schools. "Do you think x party should fight for more leniant/stringest laws governing wallsreet banks."
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Nov 3, 2017 20:16
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twodot posted:I don't think anyone is ever really opposed to mandatory voting, just that for it to work at all, we would need to do a bunch of other stuff (real voting holidays, better mail in voting, undo literally all voter suppression laws) which we should do independent of mandatory voting, so it doesn't really make any sense to advocate for mandatory voting before doing the rest of it. Also if we do do all that, it's very possible that participation rates will raise high enough that it's not worth chasing the X% of people still not voting. It's me, I'll say that mandatory voting is bad. You force people into the booth but you can't force them to learn about any of the candidates or policies, and you give idiots with big soapboxes a way to force their way into offices that they aren't remotely qualified for. It's best to make election day a national holiday and give people early voting / enough voting time so they have the capability to make that choice themselves.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:18
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Calibanibal posted:australia has mandatory voting, and also tons of poor people with horrible educations who live in the outback, and they are sitting around 90% participation. you can mail-in vote but you need to apply in advance What is the penalty for not voting?
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Nov 3, 2017 20:19
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Grapplejack posted:It's me, I'll say that mandatory voting is bad. You force people into the booth but you can't force them to learn about any of the candidates or policies, and you give idiots with big soapboxes a way to force their way into offices that they aren't remotely qualified for. It's best to make election day a national holiday and give people early voting / enough voting time so they have the capability to make that choice themselves.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:21
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its $20 for the first offence, and then increases to $50
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Nov 3, 2017 20:21
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Calibanibal posted:its $20 for the first offence, and then increases to $50 See this is the part I don’t agree with. That’s a lot of money for poor people, and in the US that would disproportionately affect POC and women. I stand by my position that lowering the barrier to entry for voting is better than making it mandatory.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:26
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thank g*d those arent mutually exclusive
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Nov 3, 2017 20:28
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The existence of the modern Republican Party should disavow people of the notion that underinformed voters are weeded out of voluntary voting systems in any significant way, it simply amplified the power of motivated uninformed voters.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:29
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If it's a holiday and you don't get a to a local polling place or early vote by mail or whatever then I don't care how the gently caress it effects you  If all else remained equal but we just started sending out fine notices to people then yeah, that's not ok.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:30
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Calibanibal posted:thank g*d those arent mutually exclusive For something to be mandatory requires there be some form of punishment for not doing it. Punishing people, especially poor people, for not wanting to vote or liking the available candidates or whatever, is dumb. Half this thread doesn’t want to vote and now you want to charge them money for being mad at the system? People ought to vote, but we shouldn’t punish them legally for choosing not to.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:31
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No Butt Stuff posted:If it's a holiday and you don't get a to a local polling place or early vote by mail or whatever then I don't care how the gently caress it effects you A national holiday would not meaningfully benefit most working class people, you'd need a national day where businesses are required to offer people the whole day off, which isn't impossible but would be a staggeringly huge endeavor.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:31
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Lightning Knight posted:For something to be mandatory requires there be some form of punishment for not doing it. Punishing people, especially poor people, for not wanting to vote or liking the available candidates or whatever, is dumb. you dont have to vote for anyone you dont like, you just have to fill in the ballot. just write in daffy duck or w/e
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Nov 3, 2017 20:32
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Calibanibal posted:you dont have to vote for anyone you dont like, you just have to fill in the ballot. just write in daffy duck or w/e Then what have you accomplished outside of inconveniencing anti-establishment citizens and making your civic engagement statistics hollow and meaningless?
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Nov 3, 2017 20:33
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