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Superterranean posted:what the gently caress is crawl actually trying to be? A platonic ideal of a roguelike where literally every choice you could possibly make is meaningful and can lead to your success or failure. The main problem is that this goal is absurd and every step of the way toward it instead of making the game more fun is making the game worse
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Nov 3, 2017 17:43
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If you're still completely dissatisfied with the direction of crawl develoment, you should either just quit now or make the fork already. The devs have already made their case about the state of crawl development in this thread and it's pretty clear both sides aren't budging on their opinions. There's not really room to complain that forking is too complicated to do either, given that both the developer of WJC and Gnolls have been active in this thread recently. Heck, even Hellmonk, who is apparently a complete idiot at programming made and maintained an online fork for over a year.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:25
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Internet Kraken posted:I won't be, because ghosts are something really unique in Crawl. This game has been losing a lot of its character with recent versions and the removal of ghosts would be another blow in that regard. I'd rather they put in the effort to make a proper reform or just do nothing. Ghosts were introduced first in Nethack I believe but you probably meant online ghosts, and Nethack has the equipment windfall problem too.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:29
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Can Of Worms posted:If you're still completely dissatisfied with the direction of crawl develoment, you should either just quit now or make the fork already. The devs have already made their case about the state of crawl development in this thread and it's pretty clear both sides aren't budging on their opinions. There's not really room to complain that forking is too complicated to do either, given that both the developer of WJC and Gnolls have been active in this thread recently. Heck, even Hellmonk, who is apparently a complete idiot at programming made and maintained an online fork for over a year. If y'all would just release one full version of the game with the fun version of WJC I'd honestly be fine with that. Remove it afterward. Whatever. As it is it feels like it's being withheld out of spite, and "learn to program and make a fork" completely misses the point. Actually it's clearly being withheld out of spite, and that deserves every bit of criticism that it's getting.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:51
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IronicDongz posted:one of the other ideas for player ghost reform in the dev plan is to make ghosts temporary allies that help you fight against other monsters(perhaps specifically the kind of monster that killed them), which is exactly in line with this thread's love of flavor and wanting the game to get easier. but none of you are talking about that because apparently you would all rather bitch about how the devs are ruining your fun before they've done it Because that is absolutely not going to happen and you know that. Can Of Worms posted:If you're still completely dissatisfied with the direction of crawl develoment, you should either just quit now or make the fork already. The devs have already made their case about the state of crawl development in this thread and it's pretty clear both sides aren't budging on their opinions. There's not really room to complain that forking is too complicated to do either, given that both the developer of WJC and Gnolls have been active in this thread recently. Heck, even Hellmonk, who is apparently a complete idiot at programming made and maintained an online fork for over a year. Part of the appeal of Crawl to me is the online aspect. I don't want to play some offline fork. Besides, in what's supposed to be a community developed game the devs should listen to what active players have to say and take it into consideration. From what I can tell if you aren't part of their clique you just get ignored. Like I could make a big post explaining why I like ghosts and what I believe they bring to Crawl. I could propose ideas for how they could be changed to improve the game while maintaining their flavor. None of that will ever be considered so why bother? Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 19:59
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Shame about WJC, but I think a lot of people suspected the god would be axed or have an incomplete form merged unceremoniously a long time ago. I remember "pledging" to add some text about expectations in the development process as a disclaimer to future contributors but I did so expecting it wouldn't be a trainwreck.Can Of Worms posted:If you're still completely dissatisfied with the direction of crawl develoment, you should either just quit now or make the fork already. While I agree with the general sentiment of "do something about it", I actually disagree here about forking as a first reaction. Yes it's an open source project, but someone dissatisfied with the main branch can also support and test other existing forks instead (as long as you feel that fork is going in a direction you like). Ignoring the issue of testing/compiling your own version and distributing it, if too many people actually forked DCSS you'd have an even worse problem than all the politics or "too many cooks" problem: you'd just have too many forks with little to no players, it might as well be an invitation to fail. Internet Kraken beat me to it but there's a community aspect for most people as well; it's pretty lame to play a fork that literally only you play and there's no one else to discuss it with. It's not just an issue of changing a few numbers and re-compiling, it's building a new community from the ground up. I actually like Hellcrawl a lot, it lacks the "polish" from the main game but that much is expected if you make major changes. On the flipside it lacks the enormous amount of inertia of the main branch's development process and Hellmonk seems pretty open to suggestions from what I've seen. The community is nowhere near as active as DCSS's main branch but it's there and you can play it online which is really nice. You can check out the list of changes here: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=21527 If that doesn't sound appealing and no other forks look good to you, then yeah, you're going to have to learn how to create a fork. 
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Nov 3, 2017 20:17
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Internet Kraken posted:Part of the appeal of Crawl to me is the online aspect. I don't want to play some offline fork. Besides, in what's supposed to be a community developed game the devs should listen to what active players have to say and take it into consideration. From what I can tell if you aren't part of their clique you just get ignored. Also, the decisions of the devs are not done in a vacuum. They're still guided by crawl's community, and like any community there are going to be opinions that fundamentally different. If this thread is going to label people who think ghosts are bad or mutagenic chunks should be removed things like autists or idiots, why do you think the devs should bother listening?
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Nov 3, 2017 20:35
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Fitzy Fitz posted:If y'all would just release one full version of the game with the fun version of WJC I'd honestly be fine with that. Remove it afterward. Whatever. As it is it feels like it's being withheld out of spite, and "learn to program and make a fork" completely misses the point. This is from March, but I made this fork and this Windows compilation for pre-nerf WJC when someone asked for it. Since WJC hasn't really been touched since March aside from messaging updates, you (should) be able to just take all the changes from this commit (do both the additions and subtractions) and apply them to the files in the current master branch if you want to play pre-nerf WJC with Gnoll v3.0 and no monster spawns.
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Nov 3, 2017 21:00
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Can Of Worms posted:I specifically mentioned the existence of an online fork. Hellcrawl is a radical fork with lots of changes that likely will never be implemented by devs, and it still has online support. There is very little stopping a fork hosted on github from being online since the several server maintainers are more than happy to help. You're missing the point. By creating a fork you are seperating yourself from the main community of the game and that takes a lot of fun out of it. One of the reasons I got so much playtime out of Crawl was because I could watch and compare myself to other players. That inspired me to to try new stuff myself and talk about it with others. Once you start playing separate versions, that community aspect falls apart. You end up playing a different game from most people so you no longer have that connection. Frankly, the design of the game shouldn't of deviated so much from what made it enjoyable that a fork is even necessary. quote:Also, the decisions of the devs are not done in a vacuum. They're still guided by crawl's community, and like any community there are going to be opinions that fundamentally different. If this thread is going to label people who think ghosts are bad or mutagenic chunks should be removed things like autists or idiots, why do you think the devs should bother listening? No I'm pretty sure they are guided by what the devs want to do, selectively listening to the parts of the community that agree with them. You keep talking about this thread as if we're one hivemind but I've never insulted the devs on a personal level. They still have disregarded all the feedback I've provided. I mean if the devs want to pursue their own pet projects that's ultimately up to them but don't act like its the will of the community.
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Nov 3, 2017 21:17
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If there were no ghosts, I don't think I would have started playing online. They aren't something I care much about now in either direction, but I'm glad they were there for that reason!
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Nov 3, 2017 21:32
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Internet Kraken posted:You're missing the point. By creating a fork you are seperating yourself from the main community of the game and that takes a lot of fun out of it. One of the reasons I got so much playtime out of Crawl was because I could watch and compare myself to other players. That inspired me to to try new stuff myself and talk about it with others. Once you start playing separate versions, that community aspect falls apart. You end up playing a different game from most people so you no longer have that connection. Frankly, the design of the game shouldn't of deviated so much from what made it enjoyable that a fork is even necessary. Internet Kraken posted:No I'm pretty sure they are guided by what the devs want to do, selectively listening to the parts of the community that agree with them. You keep talking about this thread as if we're one hivemind but I've never insulted the devs on a personal level. They still have disregarded all the feedback I've provided. I mean if the devs want to pursue their own pet projects that's ultimately up to them but don't act like its the will of the community. You may have posted well-reasoned criticism and feedback but this is still a niche thread in the crawl community; I don't think there are any devs actively reading this thread. They won't bother sorting through the thread to see who said what, especially if it starts getting bloated by a lot of pointless complaints. The other thing is that feedback is just that, feedback. It doesn't instantly create new code the devs can use. Even if you have the perfect solution to all of Crawl's problems, someone still needs to write up the code, put it in, make sure nothing breaks and then test it, which is another reason forking is encouraged. apple posted:While I agree with the general sentiment of "do something about it", I actually disagree here about forking as a first reaction. Yes it's an open source project, but someone dissatisfied with the main branch can also support and test other existing forks instead (as long as you feel that fork is going in a direction you like). Ignoring the issue of testing/compiling your own version and distributing it, if too many people actually forked DCSS you'd have an even worse problem than all the politics or "too many cooks" problem: you'd just have too many forks with little to no players, it might as well be an invitation to fail. Internet Kraken beat me to it but there's a community aspect for most people as well; it's pretty lame to play a fork that literally only you play and there's no one else to discuss it with. It's not just an issue of changing a few numbers and re-compiling, it's building a new community from the ground up. apple posted:While I agree with the general sentiment of "do something about it", I actually disagree here about forking as a first reaction. Yes it's an open source project, but someone dissatisfied with the main branch can also support and test other existing forks instead (as long as you feel that fork is going in a direction you like). Ignoring the issue of testing/compiling your own version and distributing it, if too many people actually forked DCSS you'd have an even worse problem than all the politics or "too many cooks" problem: you'd just have too many forks with little to no players, it might as well be an invitation to fail. Internet Kraken beat me to it but there's a community aspect for most people as well; it's pretty lame to play a fork that literally only you play and there's no one else to discuss it with. It's not just an issue of changing a few numbers and re-compiling, it's building a new community from the ground up. Can Of Worms fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 22:31
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I posted my feedback on the crawl forums before and had it been ignored there too. Devs also used to post in this thread, got feedback, and consistently ignored it. Its also hypocritical to say the devs should ignore us all because some posters were rude when the devs have been quite toxic in this thread as well. The ultimate point is this; I don't buy that the changes being made in Crawl are actually the will of the overall community. The devs are doing what they want and think is right for the balance of the game. I don't want to have to create a fork just because the devs are too focused on their own visions rather than preserving the original spirit of the game. No amount of forking is going to convince the current devs to stop removing content.
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Nov 3, 2017 22:49
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Can Of Worms posted:Forking I'll be honest: I don't get the emphasis on forks. It's not trivial, you're severely understating the challenge involved for a non-programmer to even change 1 number, compile it and test it. Beyond that you need to learn actual syntax and programming concepts. If devs are unsure about making a change and the option of an easy merge can put them over the fence then that in itself is a sign it's not trivial. You can't have your cake and eat it too, as they say. Plus you can provide merge material anyway by simply supporting other forks like hellcrawl and devs can always decide to pull what they like from it.
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Nov 3, 2017 23:15
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I have yet to see a method of compiling C on Windows that isn't a pain in the rear end for someone who isn't intimately familiar with linux concepts, either though I could be just missing one
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Nov 3, 2017 23:19
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Internet Kraken posted:I posted my feedback on the crawl forums before and had it been ignored there too. Devs also used to post in this thread, got feedback, and consistently ignored it. Its also hypocritical to say the devs should ignore us all because some posters were rude when the devs have been quite toxic in this thread as well. Pretty much this, really. As someone who has no idea how to code, I often vaguely hope someone will step up with gooncrawl, fun edition, but my other viable option is vote with my feet. I check in on the thread from time to time, but I don't think I've actually played since the last tournament. There's entirely too many roguelikes out there now with devs who don't sneer at anyone posting in here.
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Nov 4, 2017 00:04
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FulsomFrank posted:How many people lamented that [item destruction] removal and are begging for its return today? Me, for one. I miss it, I thought it was good tension, rewarded careful play, punished ppl who hoard consumables instead of using them, etc etc. I miss it. I also play cogmind, so... Fitzy Fitz posted:No amount of balancing can make item destruction fun because it's fundamentally bad. A lot of RLs have item destruction and degradation, and I actually can't think of any one that I've played extensively that doesn't have the mechanic. Nethack (albeit briefly), Powder, DCSS, Brouge, Sil, and now Cogmind. I won't defend Nethack and I barely touched it, but otherwise DCSS is the only one that has people with a stick up their arse about the game effecting their equipment. Honestly, a lot of the song and dance about it encouraging poor behavior is probably due to how in Crawl there's a very large aspect of being "Safe and in Control". We have cleared out areas, that when combined with a food clock that's easy to sidestep with sustenance rings, result players trying very hard not to step outside their comfort zone and risk having negative power progress. So having enemies that dare to damage the player in a way that's more than trivially transient is considered horrendous. I'll state it again, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with Item degradation/destruction, but DCSS's philosophy regarding player behavior, "optimal play" (lol), etc is what's at fault.
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Nov 4, 2017 01:44
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There are already so many ways of dying in a roguelike, I don't feel like item destruction ever adds anything but the tedium and frustration of trying to circumvent the mechanic. Crawl isn't the only roguelike that has removed or reduced item destruction and I hope a lot more follow suit.
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Nov 4, 2017 02:45
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This only became a "niche" thread in the Crawl community when the devs got upset people weren't bowing down to them and took their ball and went home. If you've forgotten, the SA thread used to be linked to on the Crawl homepage until what, 0.16?
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Nov 4, 2017 02:53
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Serephina posted:Me, for one. I miss it, I thought it was good tension, rewarded careful play, punished ppl who hoard consumables instead of using them, etc etc. I miss it. I also play cogmind, so... Basically having to drop all your potions or scrolls when an icy/freezy enemy showed up if you didn't have Conservation was kinda crap though, this is like the one instance where eliminating something instead of reforming it was a net gain to the game IMO.
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Nov 4, 2017 04:09
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Wait are they really removing ghosts? What the gently caress.
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Nov 4, 2017 04:24
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Was it the Will of the Community to remove boulder beetles?
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Nov 4, 2017 05:40
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0.21 notes: Removed players
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Nov 4, 2017 11:22
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Floodkiller posted:People have been using VPNs to run bots that populate the online servers with awful player ghosts (CeCK, which gives them fast speed and a chaos brand), so it's become a situation of fix it or get rid of it because haven't been able to wall out the griefers as of yet. This sounds like exactly the sort of poo poo I would expect from Minmay/Duvessa. They know how to write a bot and are unhealthily invested in their ideal vision of crawl and forcing other people to play "their way"
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Nov 4, 2017 22:41
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Speleothing posted:This sounds like exactly the sort of poo poo I would expect from Minmay/Duvessa. They know how to write a bot and are unhealthily invested in their ideal vision of crawl and forcing other people to play "their way" Minmay wouldn't do that. cbus would though 
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Nov 4, 2017 22:56
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I realized that they were going to remove ghosts a little while ago because of the opposite, actually - someone posted a formicid bot whose only purpose was to dive down as many floors as possible and then die, in order to force and therefore deplete ghost spawns. Since that IS the optimal way to play online, and is stupid, SOMETHING'S gotta change... and when I say "change" I mean "go".
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Nov 5, 2017 09:10
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A few quick tweaks come to mind that could solve a lot of these problems : 1) Don't mark a ghost for deletion until it's been spotted. 2) Don't mark a ghost for deletion until it's been spotted AND you're at least the same XP level as it. So if a level 1 character met a level 10 ghost, the ghost wouldn't be marked for deletion. If you lived long enough to get to level 10, that level 10 ghost you'd previously met would become marked for deletion. 3) Ghosts don't spawn unless you're within X levels of them. E.g. if X was 50%, and a floor had a level 24 ghost, then a level 3 character reaching that floor wouldn't cause it to be spawned. If that character revisited that floor at level 12+, the ghost would spawn. You could easily dress this up as saying "powerful ghosts don't waste time on weaklings" or something similar. X should undoubtedly be a more complicated formula but you get the idea. 4) A character's ghost is left in one of the Y deepest floors that character saw. No more 15-rune ghosts in early D. 4a) This doesn't apply if you're carrying the Orb. These ideas doesn't solve things like draconian-ghost-breath or the above-mentioned CeCK, but those are special cases and can be handled separately.
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Nov 5, 2017 10:45
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Ferrinus posted:I realized that they were going to remove ghosts a little while ago because of the opposite, actually - someone posted a formicid bot whose only purpose was to dive down as many floors as possible and then die, in order to force and therefore deplete ghost spawns. Since that IS the optimal way to play online, and is stupid, SOMETHING'S gotta change... and when I say "change" I mean "go". Since when is botting optimal play and not just cheating like in any other game
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Nov 5, 2017 15:10
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On positive changes, has anybody else played Ash recently? The skill targets actually take your skill boost into effect, it's very convenient to train the amount you want now. Currently playing a DsNe (got stuck with claws, sadly) - found an early shadow dragon armour and decided to go for it (was pretty usable at 10-12 str, after Lair I had the necro spells and Mana Viper working), Orc had the En book to go with it and D:12s elec dagger.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:47
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Fitzy Fitz posted:Since when is botting optimal play and not just cheating like in any other game bots have been something people have had fun with in crawl for a long time, writing them to make them go as fast and as efficiently as possible etc. kinda encouraged in a way that they aren't in other games. particularly most games where bots are considered a form of cheating are some kind of pvp games. also you can just play offline to not have a bunch of player ghosts. but then you don't get a stats page, so people don't want to do that.
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Nov 5, 2017 19:58
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IronicDongz posted:bots have been something people have had fun with in crawl for a long time, writing them to make them go as fast and as efficiently as possible etc. A cool idea is a bots-only server, you could even track stats and stuff. And then the other servers for players wouldn't be able to be trolled the same way.
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Nov 6, 2017 04:52
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I missed the ghost discussion, and it's a sad thing to say, but any interesting topic is probably better left undiscussed, given the current atmosphere. I'll risk adding my opinion that I will miss ghosts if they go, the "multiplayer" aspect of them is really cool and they are an excellent flavor enemy. People coming onto the forum to call out another poster on their awful ghost adds to the experience. And at high levels, they can make interesting challenges, since they're completely unpredictable, very powerful enemies. But I completely understand the complaints most players have about them. I think most of them could be solved by the proposal in the development plan of removing them from the early game except for occasionally occurring in vaults. The fact that they would be trivial for characters with berserk or fast movement speed is more of a problem with berserk and fast movement speed than ghosts. Other special cases, like FeCK ghosts or Dr ghosts could be special cased by... eliminating the bullshit special cases that create those problems, as has already happened with Dr ghost drain breath. I'm surprised there was so much negative sentiment here against the removal of ghosts, since they are some of the worst bullshit enemies in the game and add a lot to the frustration and tedium of the early game. There are legitimately good reasons to keep them in, and as I said, I would be sad to see them go. But, I think there are a lot of posters here who only come in and post angry, negative poo poo about the developers whatever the reason. Three versions later when ghosts are added back in, I wouldn't be surprised to see the same posters complaining about that. It's not a good thing that we chased the devs out of this thread. Pleasing Fungus and SKULL.GIF were really cool and weren't "the bad guys" anyway; they had lots of cool stuff to say and were generally chill. Gammafunk's design largely philosophy runs counter to what most of us here like, but he had interesting things to say that enabled discussion, rather than the mere shouting going on now. Dpeg can really be a prick sometimes, but he also had a lot to contribute to the discussion: for the people sad about Wujian, remember dpeg was a major proponent and pushed hard among the devs to get it added in the first place. Now the thread goes without posts for days and can't even discuss a single change without rancor. I'm disappointed in the direction the game's going too, but I still think cool things are being added to it, and I don't think the way to influence it is by shitposting. There are posters here with clearly thought out, meritorious opinions that deserve being listened to. But no one will ever here them with the state of the conversation now. We are the ones who have taken our ball and gone home.
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Nov 6, 2017 05:34
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What the hell are you talking about? Skull.gif and Pleasing Fungus posted in this thread for tons of versions and never had a problem with the atmosphere here. Dpeg is the one who sauntered in, acted like an rear end in a top hat, and then somehow it was all our fault when people responded in kind. Any discussion he created was pointless because he never listened to anything said here. I can't think of a single change that seems like it was influenced by feedback here in recent versions. You point out that there is barely any recent discussion, but that's because there's barely anything going on. The most substantial change to the game is the possible addition of Gnolls, which plenty of people have talked about. What else was there to talk about? Development has slowed down to a glacial pace and most of the upcoming changes are the removal of content or reworks of existing stuff, and there's only so much you can say about that. Especially when its almost entirely theoretical at the moment, like the supposed swamp rework. The general plan for Crawl has shifted away from adding new content to reworking or removing the existing features. This can be for the better, but a lot of the time its for worse. Don't act like this thread is negative just for the sake of it when the atmosphere was mostly positive and enthusiastic up until the recent versions.
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Nov 6, 2017 05:44
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I'm too lazy to go point for point with you because time off is rare now, and I'd rather spend it playing video games than arguing on the internet about something nobody else cares about. And I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. I remember pleasingfungus' last post in this thread was something like: "you all are complaining about changes that haven't even happened yet, I'm going to take a break, maybe I'll come back later". He explicitly said he was leaving because the environment in the thread was getting really bad. Maybe he can come and correct me if I'm wrong. I lurked in ##crawl-dev for a while early this year, and I frequently saw devs posting from this thread with the purpose of seriously discussing them (particularly Brannock). Of course, they also made fun of us and posted stupid things we said to laugh at them, but we do that to them too. Yes, development is extremely slow and the direction it's going is worrisome. And dissatisfaction with the way the game is going is primarily to blame for the low effort poo poo posts. But they are still low effort poo poo posts. They're not doing anything to make the game or the thread better. Yeah, people like gnolls, but even half of the comments about how gnolls are good were backhanded insults of the dev team, when the fact that gnolls are fun is partly because the devs have gone through iteration after iteration of them trying to get them into an enjoyable state. If people tried to present their ideas coherently and as good ideas, instead of quips or emotional rants, maybe they'd be listened to more often.
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Nov 6, 2017 06:07
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How am I supposed to NOT get emotional when I talk about boulder beetles
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Nov 6, 2017 06:45
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That's an extremely good point.
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Nov 6, 2017 06:47
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This can be resolved with a simple solution. That solution is the Crown of Eternal Torment.
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Nov 6, 2017 06:49
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I love Crawl, but I haven't played it much recently. Probably some fresh new changes to the game would get my attention, but the direction the game has gone recently has mostly taken out features I enjoyed. I'll always have the hundreds of hours enjoyably spent on various iterations of crawl from 0.6+, but the game I fell in love with is barely there. My favorite race was Sludge Elf, my favorite spell was Evaporate, my favorite class was Reaver, and my favorite god was Pakellas. It used to be when they got rid of something I liked, something new would come in to replace it. I lost evaporate and reavers, but the changes to conjurer and the elementalists, along with all sorts of new conjugations like Battlesphere helped dull the pain. But then they got rid of Battlesphere too, and replaced it with: You know how they say if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything? It's no surprise the thread's quiet. Eela6 fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Nov 6, 2017 |
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Nov 6, 2017 07:13
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Kraken's retelling is entirely correct. We had devs and contributors in here for YEARS who could take some criticism and some jokes (you know like the entire forums have operated for nearly two decades) and it was all gravy. Then dpeg came in and posted a load of holier-than-thou screeds about how bad things are actually good, and when the thread acted in the exact same way it always does, he got his feelings hurt and took his ball and went home. There's no simple way to fix this, it will take years o- World Famous W posted:This can be resolved with a simple solution. -hoorayyyyyy
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Nov 6, 2017 07:48
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Also, as a side note, I would love for my avatar to be canon again.
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Nov 6, 2017 08:02
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tote up a bags posted:Kraken's retelling is entirely correct. We had devs and contributors in here for YEARS who could take some criticism and some jokes (you know like the entire forums have operated for nearly two decades) and it was all gravy. Then dpeg came in and posted a load of holier-than-thou screeds about how bad things are actually good, and when the thread acted in the exact same way it always does, he got his feelings hurt and took his ball and went home. Just to add to this, it's not just the Goons here; I can remember occasions of dpeg being a prick on the Tavern before I ever even read this thread. At some point you just have to accept this is who he is, but I don't think it's a particular dislike of goons. But yeah, fair play to PleasingFungus and co.
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Nov 6, 2017 08:07
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