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When the barrier wall is finished everyone barrage all the place walking 10 meters by day. Everyone can run will otherwise bear in rubble or stove and place. Sagaest genesis Wilbur better that evermore. Tillerson under showed olive groved. Elders reminisce tractors the melons hoved. Doom. 
fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 03:02
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fritzgryphon posted:When the barrier wall is finished everyone barrage all the place walking 10 meters by day. Everyone can run will otherwise bear in rubble or stove and place. Sagaest genesis Wilbur better that evermore. Tillerson under showed olive groved. 
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Nov 3, 2017 04:27
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the old ceremony posted:you're all completely mad This is not a place of honor. No highly esteemed deed is commemorated here. Nothing valued is here. This place is a message and part of a system of messages. Pay attention to it! Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture.
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Nov 3, 2017 04:32
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fritzgryphon posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Syria ? Therefore, I suppose, resistance to apartheid was immoral, because the white minority government had greater military might and could have massacred the majority if they so chose. Therefore the only moral course of action for the ANC was to surrender unconditionally and collaborate with the Nats to defeat any movement for democracy or civil rights as swiftly as possible thereby minimizing the number of protesters or dissidents or just ordinary civilians Botha's government had to murder to sustain minority rule.
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Nov 3, 2017 05:22
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It is commendable that people here think that you can reason factually with someone who supports apartheid and literal colonialism in the year 2017. It really shows the degree of faith others still have in the human mind and capacity of improvement, but that is just too far gone for me. As an European whose country loathes the immoral poo poo state that is Israel I obviously am less frustrated with the ongoing situation then an American would be, granted. Honestly, any time you debate and you aren't asking why these people think that racial and/or religious segregation and settler colonialism is alright is a waste. All you do is get drawn into the usual bullshit semantics and whataboutism. Israel falls when America's support for it falls and everyone else, who already literally hate Israel as much as North Korea or Iran, starve it out with sanctions and force it to reform into a democracy and give full and equal national rights to non-Jewish residents and colonial subjects. Thanks to America allowing them to pretend they are part of the West, enabling many Israelis to become accustomated to 1st world lifestyles, I have some faith that process will not be very long (at least in comparison to the one preceding it). The Palestinian State, thanks to decades and decades of continual expansion by the Jewish State, is dead and unviable, geographically, demographically and politically. Due to those same reasons, the Jewish State is dying as well, and will be dead after US pulls its support. The future existence of either is just a fantasy by those who don't see the writing on the wall. There's going to be at least another 30-50 years of horrific poo poo happening before we end up with a binational state that is going to have a good few decades of further trouble, so you know I am not happy about any of this, but it has become a reality that I've accepted. I get that it is not as easy for others here to accept, whether you are a believer in equal rights and Palestinian statehood or one of the resident Jewish supremacists. I get that it is impossible to most of the people in the region itself to accept as well for a long, long time. But what else is there? Nobody in Israel or its colony is packing up and leaving and it isn't really viable to force them to leave. Nobody else in the world than USA gives a poo poo about Israel or actively hates them and USA will not support them to the end of time, if only because it's own demographic and cultural transition. Nothing lasts forever. Though I would be very interested in how others see the future unfolding, even though I am pretty well convinced that this is the only realistic scenario. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 08:00
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White supremacy is so deeply ingrained in society that people can with a straight face tell you they aren't racist while calling for Eternal Racial Holy War and believe it
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Nov 3, 2017 12:20
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In Rare Move, Israel Says Ready to Prevent Occupation of Syrian Druze Town Under Attack by Islamic Militants I'm sure that'll go over well in Damascus, coming days after the attack on that storage facility in Homs.
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Nov 3, 2017 13:22
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I don't understand the reports at all, the initial reports made it sound like Assad forces are trying to take over a rebel held village but now the Israeli media is reporting the opposite, that the village was held by Assad's forces and rebels attempted to take over and were prevented by the IDF. Anyone has an actual clue?
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Nov 3, 2017 14:14
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VitalSigns posted:Therefore, I suppose, resistance to apartheid was immoral, because the white minority government had greater military might and could have massacred the majority if they so chose. Therefore the only moral course of action for the ANC was to surrender unconditionally and collaborate with the Nats to defeat any movement for democracy or civil rights as swiftly as possible thereby minimizing the number of protesters or dissidents or just ordinary civilians Botha's government had to murder to sustain minority rule. I don't know anything about that issue. I guess If the ruling group gave up control, it was because the cost of maintaining control wasn't worth it? Like when Britain gave up India when they realized they could just buy spices for less than the cost of occupation, or how chattel slavery ended in the US when small paychecks became more efficient than literal chains. DarkCrawler posted:The Palestinian State, thanks to decades and decades of continual expansion by the Jewish State, is dead and unviable, geographically, demographically and politically. Due to those same reasons, the Jewish State is dying as well, and will be dead after US pulls its support. The future existence of either is just a fantasy by those who don't see the writing on the wall. Totes the Israel standard of living is artificially high, and they'll get a military haircut eventually, but are you sure about binational state? They got no-joke holy war with 100 years of resentment. PA is fractured and desperately poor, and Israel is p ok. They live in wasteland but at least have some economy that isn't diamonds or oil, good education, high GDP per capita and internal unity. If they don't have to please the US, straight-up genocide/expulsion of Palestinians becomes an option, and hot conflict gets more likely the weaker Israel gets. They'll never agree to live together, and the Arab powers wouldn't allow it. The show might start getting good again.  edit: Palestinian GDP per capita is closer than I thought ($29k to $37k). edit2: Off by factor of 10. $2.9k lol. fritzgryphon fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 19:56
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fritzgryphon posted:Like when Britain gave up India when they realized they could just buy spices for less than the cost of occupation, or how chattel slavery ended in the US when small paychecks became more efficient than literal chains. These are both highly inaccurate historical summations.
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Nov 3, 2017 20:43
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Disinterested posted:These are both highly inaccurate historical summations. Over simplistic, but true. If India had some value that could only be extracted by actual, physical imperial presence, and the value that exceed the cost of the presence, and Britain had the means and will to do it, it would be the case. Sure, Gandhi can take credit, but he was just in the right place at the right time (and because he was 'peaceful' Britain could deal with him without losing face). And in the world where slaves pay off in significant excess of their maintenance and control, slavery is still common.
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Nov 3, 2017 21:01
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fritzgryphon posted:I don't know anything about that issue. Oh, word? Color me surprised.
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Nov 3, 2017 21:52
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DarkCrawler posted:It is commendable that people here think that you can reason factually with someone who supports apartheid and literal colonialism in the year 2017. It really shows the degree of faith others still have in the human mind and capacity of improvement, but that is just too far gone for me. As an European whose country loathes the immoral poo poo state that is Israel I obviously am less frustrated with the ongoing situation then an American would be, granted. Unless American attitudes toward Islamist terrorism change, the status quo with American support for Israel is not going to change. It's possible that American attitudes toward the middle east could change the way American attitudes toward Japan and Germany did, but I don't know how likely that is. There would probably have to be big material changes first, on par with how we conquered Japan and Germany. I don't think it's going to happen. Alternatively, a generation or more of nonviolent Palestinians might be able to break the strong perceptual link between their cause and terrorist attacks in the US and Europe, maybe. Anyway aside from that there isn't going to be a magical day where the USA stops supporting Israel. I'm not sure that the consequences of the US not supporting Israel would be as good for the Palestinians as you imagine, either. An Israel surrounded and cornered without friends could be very dangerous for its enemies, since they do mean "never again" when they say it.
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Nov 3, 2017 22:08
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I don't understand the reports at all, the initial reports made it sound like Assad forces are trying to take over a rebel held village but now the Israeli media is reporting the opposite, that the village was held by Assad's forces and rebels attempted to take over and were prevented by the IDF. Israel has been accused of helping Nusra front, in some cases by certain elements in the Druze community. This came to a head when a Nusra front/Fatah a-Sham suicide bombing killed 9 people in a Druze village in Syrian-controlled territory, who have relatives on the Israeli side, like this MK. So some Druze tries to cross the border in protest before being stopped by the IDF. Israel is trying to reassure the Druze in Israel that no, it is not supporting an Islamic militia that is the enemy of their coreligionists and in many cases relatives across the border, and went as far to say that they would intervene militarily to make sure that Hader does not fall.
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Nov 4, 2017 01:27
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fritzgryphon posted:Over simplistic, but true. No, it's both overly simplistic and wrong. In the case of the slavery example you're arguing the opposite of the historical reality.
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Nov 4, 2017 01:33
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Even he were right about the economics (like you said he's not, slavery was incredibly profitable and the South was terrified of losing the free labor their plantation economy depended on), the """moral""" conclusion he's drawing is that the African American slaves should have submitted and policed each other into submitting and never tried to resist or run away in order to minimize the number of unruly slaves the plantation owners reluctantly had to torture and kill to maintain the institution.
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Nov 4, 2017 01:39
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hakimashou posted:Anyway aside from that there isn't going to be a magical day where the USA stops supporting Israel. I'm not sure that the consequences of the US not supporting Israel would be as good for the Palestinians as you imagine, either. An Israel surrounded and cornered without friends could be very dangerous for its enemies, since they do mean "never again" when they say it. Christ, stop trying to pretend you care about Jewish people. It's obvious you're just trying to use it as some sort of rhetorical bludgeon. I can assure you that Israel and their actions do no favors for the Jewish diaspora and that having Jewish ancestry doesn't randomly give you more of an excuse to commit atrocities out of a misguided sense of self-preservation. Even accepting your bizarre "literal might = right" logic, attitudes would never change in a positive way if everyone was like you and spent all their effort defending the status quo using an is-ought fallacy*. The hakimashou in 1820s America would be arguing against abolitionists about how it obviously isn't feasible to end slavery. *Just in case you weren't aware, there's actually a term ("is-ought fallacy") for the specific type of bad logic you're using here. It means that you're confusing "the way things are" with "the way things should be."
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Nov 4, 2017 01:47
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Ytlaya posted:Christ, stop trying to pretend you care about Jewish people. It's obvious you're just trying to use it as some sort of rhetorical bludgeon. I can assure you that Israel and their actions do no favors for the Jewish diaspora and that having Jewish ancestry doesn't randomly give you more of an excuse to commit atrocities out of a misguided sense of self-preservation. I'm not pretending I care about Jewish people, I really do care. I don't believe that Israel causes anti-semitism, or that anti-semitism has gotten worse since the formation of Israel. Anti-semitism is much weaker now than it was before Israel. I don't believe that just winning a war should should always give one group of people the right to displace another, but that is how pretty much all the land in the world got divvied up at one point or another. It's certainly how the US and Britain came to be. The world probably should stop it from happening anymore, but I don't think it's right to draw the line right before the Jews got Israel. "It was alright for us to do this, but not for you" doesn't seem appropriate in this case. If anything, the west has a special obligation to the wellbeing of the Jews, as a way of making up for all the horror inflicted on them. It would be more appropriate in the case of Israel to say that we are making a special exception in their favor, that they can do this but it ends there and we won't permit it again. All this isn't to say that I have anything against Arabs. I would be thrilled if we spent as much money as we do on Israel, or even much more money, helping resettle the Palestinians and giving them a good life somewhere else. I'd be very happy if the US welcomed them all here in fact, and would enthusiastically support someone in an election if that was a plank of his or her platform. Immigrants make America great.
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Nov 4, 2017 03:04
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Keep in mind that hakimashou thinks that back when America was the sole nuclear power it would have been good for us to nuke most of Eurasia and poison half the world with radioactive fallout, this would have been righteous by definition because the people with the power to do it would have been the ones doing it. It's like arguing with Zorg from the fifth element, there's no way to come to an agreement because he's starting from a fundamentally incompatible moral premise totally alien to humanity. O'Brien from 1984 might be a more exact analogy actually, the ideal existence is a boot stomping on the face of humanity, forever.
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Nov 4, 2017 03:12
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hakimashou posted:All this isn't to say that I have anything against Arabs. I would be thrilled if we spent as much money as we do on Israel, or even much more money, helping resettle the Palestinians and giving them a good life somewhere else. I'd be very happy if the US welcomed them all here in fact, and would enthusiastically support someone in an election if that was a plank of his or her platform. Immigrants make America great. You're just another coward who tries to hide their support of ethnic cleansing behind a proposal they know they don't have to support in any meaningful way
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Nov 4, 2017 15:36
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If Palestinians immigrants would be so good for America, why don't you support Israel by proposing to resettle Palestinian refugees there? Make Israel Great Again.
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Nov 4, 2017 15:58
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Happy Rabin Assassinationversary! 
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Nov 4, 2017 18:49
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Yitzhak Rubitzov, a Ukranian racist who ethnically cleansed the Palestinians then illegally occupied several arab countries and finally ate poo poo and died 50 years later than he should've. Nothing to cry over.
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Nov 4, 2017 18:59
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Al-Saqr posted:Yitzhak Rubitzov, a Ukranian racist who ethnically cleansed the Palestinians then illegally occupied several arab countries and finally ate poo poo and died 50 years later than he should've. Nothing to cry over. I shouldn't be surprised that you'd find your interests aligned with those of the Jewish religious right.
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Nov 4, 2017 19:21
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I shouldn't be surprised that you'd find your interests aligned with those of the Jewish religious right. Not really, I oppose racism and apartheid no matter who does it, and hate everybody who commits it no matter what their personal religious or political affiliation is , Yhitzak was personally non-religious or whatever passes as 'secular' in Israel, but in deeds and actions he was every bit a religious fanatic racist piece of poo poo racist who ethnically cleansed people and illegally occupied other peoples countries, the only real tragedy about him is that he got to live as long as he did to do the damage he did. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Nov 4, 2017 |
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Nov 4, 2017 19:29
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Al-Saqr posted:Not really, I oppose racism and apartheid no matter who does it, and hate everybody who commits it no matter what their personal religious or political affiliation is , Yhitzak was personally non-religious or whatever passes as 'secular' in Israel, but in deeds and actions he was every bit a religious fanatic racist piece of poo poo racist who ethnically cleansed people and illegally occupied other peoples countries, the only real tragedy about him is that he got to live as long as he did. He wasn't assassinated for "racism and apartheid", though. He was assassinated for bringing Israel the closest it ever was and the closest it's ever likely to be to allowing Palestinians to have a separate state in the West Bank and Gaza. By a religious nationalist Jew.
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Nov 4, 2017 19:37
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Al-Saqr posted:Yitzhak Rubitzov, quote:died 50 years later than he should've. Oh yeah. If only a certain total and convincing victory in October actually solved the Middle East's Jew problem. What a shame.
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Nov 4, 2017 19:42
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Absurd Alhazred posted:He wasn't assassinated for "racism and apartheid", though. He was assassinated for bringing Israel the closest it ever was and the closest it's ever likely to be to allowing Palestinians to have a separate state in the West Bank and Gaza. By a religious nationalist Jew. so he was killed by someone more right wing than him, so? He led a long life fighting and securing for Israel its apartheid regime and racial superiority and imprisonment and cleansing of the Palestinian people and actively and illegally invaded and occupied other people's countries, he's a complete right wing nutcase who murdered a poo poo ton of people. Being sad about him dying is the same thing as being sad that apartheid South Africa's best general died, gently caress him. Maybe if he had half a conscience he wouldn't have enslaved and destroyed the Palestinians in the first place? Or maybe not illegally conquered Egyptian and Syrian land and killed a ton of people? You judge people by what they actually did, not by what they said. Xander77 posted:Oh yeah. If only a certain total and convincing victory in October actually solved the Middle East's Jew problem. What a shame. Actually I was saying that he should've died the moment he decided to pick up a gun to kill and cleanse and enslave the Palestinians in 1948. Funny you mentioned the October war, since it wasn't about any 'Jew problem', the specific military and political goals of that war, was to liberate Egyptian and Syrian lands conquered by Rabin in the first place, maybe he shouldn't have been a piece of poo poo and shouldn't have started an illegal war to enslave other people? Just a thought. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Nov 4, 2017 |
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Nov 4, 2017 20:00
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Al-Saqr posted:Actually I was saying that he should've died the moment he decided to pick up a gun to kill and cleanse and enslave the Palestinians in 1948. Al-Saqr posted:What the gently caress did you say to me, you little bitch? Al-Saqr posted:LOL ok sweetie pie seeing as how you're so intellectually dishonest that I point out the clear hypocrisy of racist right wing reactionary zealots who founded israel and point out that calling themselves socialists is a load of poo poo you automatically move to the tired tropes of painting me as an anti-semite, I'm not even going to bother giving you any kind of halfway answer if you're already going to approach what I say with this type of garbage, like try for once in your life to not to be a complete idiot child when you respond to people smarter and better read than you. Either quote me honestly in full or dont expect a response.
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Nov 4, 2017 20:42
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Al-Saqr posted:so he was killed by someone more right wing than him, so? He led a long life fighting and securing for Israel its apartheid regime and racial superiority and imprisonment and cleansing of the Palestinian people and actively and illegally invaded and occupied other people's countries, he's a complete right wing nutcase who murdered a poo poo ton of people. Being sad about him dying is the same thing as being sad that apartheid South Africa's best general died, gently caress him. You know, if Zionism, and particularly Israeli policy in and around the 6 Day War, had failed, I would be worried, as a Jew, at someone being so blind and spiteful against another Jew, ignoring any specifics of what they did, and for which they were murdered - among other things, for being in charge of the first Israeli government depending on the majority-Arab parties to keep going because of his policies - to fit them into your antisemitic (sorry, "anti-Zionist") worldview. But Zionism succeeded, and now the idea that people like you are a threat to me or my kind, that Jews are at a constant threat of genocide, an idea entirely tenable not 50 years ago, is laughable. So, you know, go gently caress yourself.
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Nov 4, 2017 21:09
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Nebalebadingdong posted:You're just another coward who tries to hide their support of ethnic cleansing behind a proposal they know they don't have to support in any meaningful way Well if someone ran with that as a plank of their platform I'd have to support them by donating some money and voting. I dunno how much more "meaningful" support can be than that.
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Nov 4, 2017 21:34
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hakimashou posted:The world probably should stop it from happening anymore, but I don't think it's right to draw the line right before the Jews got Israel. "It was alright for us to do this, but not for you" doesn't seem appropriate in this case. If anything, the west has a special obligation to the wellbeing of the Jews, as a way of making up for all the horror inflicted on them. It would be more appropriate in the case of Israel to say that we are making a special exception in their favor, that they can do this but it ends there and we won't permit it again. Interestingly the Nuremberg trials included charges against the Germans for waging aggressive war going back to the invasion of Poland in 1939, and since a settled maxim of the law is that you can't punish people for actions that weren't illegal until after they did them, the only logical solution, if you believe in the Nuremberg verdicts, is that waging war to acquire territory was already illegal in 1939. At any rate, it certainly was by 1945, or 1948 when al-Naqba happened. So the Israelis have the Germans to thank for the fact that they can't just annex the West Bank.
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Nov 4, 2017 22:19
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You know, if Zionism, and particularly Israeli policy in and around the 6 Day War, had failed, I would be worried, as a Jew, at someone being so blind and spiteful against another Jew, ignoring any specifics of what they did, and for which they were murdered - among other things, for being in charge of the first Israeli government depending on the majority-Arab parties to keep going because of his policies - to fit them into your antisemitic (sorry, "anti-Zionist") worldview. Being afraid of a genocide is not a valid excuse to perpetrate a genocide e: Also "people like you" seriously? Jfc you racist piece of poo poo where do you get off?
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Nov 4, 2017 23:05
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420 Gank Mid posted:Being afraid of a genocide is not a valid excuse to perpetrate a genocide "People like you" = "someone being so blind and spiteful against another Jew, ignoring any specifics of what they did, and for which they were murdered - among other things, for being in charge of the first Israeli government depending on the majority-Arab parties to keep going because of his policies - to fit them into your antisemitic (sorry, "anti-Zionist") worldview", as stated in previous paragraph. Learn to read.
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Nov 4, 2017 23:10
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Absurd Alhazred posted:"People like you" = "someone being so blind and spiteful against another Jew, ignoring any specifics of what they did, and for which they were murdered - among other things, for being in charge of the first Israeli government depending on the majority-Arab parties to keep going because of his policies - to fit them into your antisemitic (sorry, "anti-Zionist") worldview", as stated in previous paragraph. Learn to read. So Arabs are "blind and spiteful" because of having to suffer through a colonialist apartheid state in their backyard? Yeah why cant people realize how kind-hearted and good-intentioned all those Israeli government leaders are who have led the non-stop march towards ethnic cleansing in Palestine? 420 Gank Mid fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Nov 4, 2017 |
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Nov 4, 2017 23:12
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Being against genocide and apartheid is not "Antisemitism" you fuckin moron
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Nov 4, 2017 23:12
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ariel says al-saqr is the only real man in this thread
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Nov 4, 2017 23:20
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420 Gank Mid posted:Being against genocide and apartheid is not "Antisemitism" you fuckin moron Al-Saqr is an antisemite and all his posting about Israel/Jews makes that very clear. You seem to also be one, considering, again, you're not even bothering to engage with the context of the incident I am talking about, Rabin being assassinated for daring to try and push Israel away from the Occupation. A one-dimensional view of a person and extraction from context to fit a hateful narrative sounds like bigotry to me. So you, too, make me glad Zionism was successful, and I invite you, as well, to go gently caress yourself. 
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Nov 4, 2017 23:28
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I've been informed we're all antisemitic cunts here, actually
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Nov 4, 2017 23:30
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Al-Saqr is an antisemite and all his posting about Israel/Jews makes that very clear. You seem to also be one, considering, again, you're not even bothering to engage with the context of the incident I am talking about, Rabin being assassinated for daring to try and push Israel away from the Occupation. A one-dimensional view of a person and extraction from context to fit a hateful narrative sounds like bigotry to me. You're a racist piece of poo poo who supports genocide, you have no standing to be calling others out and no one with a lick of sense would listen when you do.  At first I thought you thought that anyone who is against apartheid was an antisemite, but now I guess its just you hate Arabs and think they are all antisemites?
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Nov 4, 2017 23:35
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