Fighting Games: the casuals are coming for your niche and you better be afraid

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Fighting Games: the casuals are coming for your niche and you better be afraid

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anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

FanaticalMilk posted:

It's definitely a thing, it's why companies like Tecmo Koei always have launch window titles for every system and why so many launch titles feel lacking in terms of content/polish. Getting the game out there while there is little to spend your money on means a higher chance of a sale.

I think Super Bomberman R had done half a million back in April, and was the best selling game in the series in Japan since 1998. Blaster Master Zero has gotten around 110,000 downloads as of the beginning of October. Both of these are games that would not have sold nearly this much had they been launched on Steam/PS4.

i remmeber getting a launch ps2 and there was nothing on it so i ended up getting orphen, easily one of the weirdest, worst games ive ever played lol

ssx was sick tho

# ? Nov 6, 2017 18:48

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 23:47

Barudak: May 7, 2007

anime was right posted:

i remmeber getting a launch ps2 and there was nothing on it so i ended up getting orphen, easily one of the weirdest, worst games ive ever played lol

ssx was sick tho

Orphen is a magical journey into licensed anime trash badness that probably will never be replicated.

# ? Nov 6, 2017 19:06

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Fruitsnacks posted:

Speaking of bad news, MvCI shipped only 900k according to Capcom: https://gematsu.com/2017/11/marvel-vs-capcom-infinite-worldwide-shipments-top-900000

Capcom's target was 2 million sold by the end of the fiscal year, which was pretty unrealistic considering even SFV couldn't manage it.

Not even a million copies for a Marvel licensed game...

TFRazorsaw posted:

the same fiscal stuff described USFII as a "smash hit" for Capcom.

I don't understand how the world works

USFII had like 1/10th the budget of MvC:I.

TFRazorsaw posted:

Is that even really a thing? The first few months of every console launch are slow.

Being so slow is the main appeal of releasing a game in launch window.

Why release a game on a system that will have possibly less owners than the amount of games you shipped by the end of the week?

Because if the system is a hit, you'll be the only kid on the block and establish your franchise to the userbase early on. Thus having future users purchase the game and eying on future installments.

Capcom did this with the 3DS with Super Street Fighter IV as it sold well over a million copies despite being an old port. Namco had been doing it with Ridge Racer for years since the original was a smash hit on the first Playstation. SEGA always tries to release a Sonic game during launch window for a Nintendo console due to Sonic Adventure 2 being one of the best selling third party games on the Gamecube. Dead or Alive gained such prominence in the West, due to 3 being a launch title for the original Xbox. There are many more examples.

# ? Nov 6, 2017 19:08

Agoat: Dec 4, 2012; I AM BAD AT GAMES; Lipstick Apathy

Injustice 2 PC Beta is live on Steam if you're into that.

# ? Nov 6, 2017 20:09

anime was right: Jun 27, 2008; death is certain
keep yr cool

Barudak posted:

Orphen is a magical journey into licensed anime trash badness that probably will never be replicated.

its so bad, but i have fond memories of its badness

truly it was a wonderful experience. im glad young switch owners can repeat that magic with sf2

# ? Nov 6, 2017 20:20

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

Usf2 is actually 70-100 dollars cause you need to buy a hori pad or a brooks stick converter to even play it comfortably

Real hurthling! fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Nov 6, 2017

# ? Nov 6, 2017 20:21

CRISPYBABY: Dec 15, 2007; by Reene

Getting hyped for a garbage launch title that people forget exists 1 year after its release is pretty close to a universal childhood experience. Or older, iunno. I'm too old and lazy to follow any hype cycles now but there's huge media attention on exclusive launch titles before the wheat and chaff get sorted.

# ? Nov 6, 2017 20:52

dhamster: Aug 5, 2013; I got into my car and ate my chalupa with a feeling of accomplishment.

red steeeeeel

# ? Nov 6, 2017 21:41

CRISPYBABY: Dec 15, 2007; by Reene

Who wanted ExciteTruck with his Wii? This guy.

# ? Nov 6, 2017 21:51

may contain peanuts: Sep 28, 2007; WOW what a grate sports paly by the 49rs (better than seahawks)

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

I feel similarly, except I did devote the time to learn to play it.

To advance from where I am now to an actual tournament-caliber player -- well, I would need to tighten up my execution by a lot, first and foremost -- but also I'd have to learn like 4-5 resets for Fortune instead of 2-3, and start recognizing the primary resets of every other character in the game, so basically I'd have to know their BnB combos and then the telltale couple of moves that indicate they're about to deviate from it to do something tricky. I was slowly getting to this point (at least with the original cast) pre-Encore but of course Encore changed absolutely everything.

I might get there eventually. I might also ditch this game the minute someone comes out with another airdasher with in-client GGPO, though, whenever that finally happens.

You don't need 4-5 resets. You don't even need 2-3. Just one is fine, if it's good enough. I only ever did one reset with Peacock and Double, and it was fine if you knew exactly what the reset was and where it was coming because no one could block it on reaction, except for SonicFox. I had a few resets with Big Band but that's more because Big Band's resets are bad and I tried to make up for it with misdirection. I don't think Fortune really has that problem. Just L Fiber > j.LK j.MK (1 hit) j.HP fastfall crossunder should be fine. A meaty jab out of that beats any button they push and can't be double jumped out of, and you can react to most invincible air supers with H Fiber post-flash cause invincible air supers don't have hitstop (except for Painwheel and Big Band, who you still sort of need to respect). When you get them to respect that you mix in air grabs or let them actually touch the ground then high/low them.

You are right that you have to learn everyone else's resets and practice defending against them. That's the part that actually takes a lot of work. A lot of the poo poo people do is jank, but it's only jank if you know how it works.

# ? Nov 6, 2017 22:34

Saint Freak: Apr 16, 2007; Regretting is an insult to oneself; Buglord

If you only move half the copies you though you would, just sell double the dlc. Maybe get lootboxes involved. EZ

# ? Nov 6, 2017 22:40

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

may contain peanuts posted:

You don't need 4-5 resets. You don't even need 2-3. Just one is fine, if it's good enough. I only ever did one reset with Peacock and Double, and it was fine if you knew exactly what the reset was and where it was coming because no one could block it on reaction, except for SonicFox. I had a few resets with Big Band but that's more because Big Band's resets are bad and I tried to make up for it with misdirection. I don't think Fortune really has that problem. Just L Fiber > j.LK j.MK (1 hit) j.HP fastfall crossunder should be fine. A meaty jab out of that beats any button they push and can't be double jumped out of, and you can react to most invincible air supers with H Fiber post-flash cause invincible air supers don't have hitstop (except for Painwheel and Big Band, who you still sort of need to respect). When you get them to respect that you mix in air grabs or let them actually touch the ground then high/low them.

You are right that you have to learn everyone else's resets and practice defending against them. That's the part that actually takes a lot of work. A lot of the poo poo people do is jank, but it's only jank if you know how it works.

Wait, it's actually possible to get the crossunder on that L. Fiber setup? I thought it was high/low/throw only!

# ? Nov 6, 2017 22:53

RichterIX: Apr 11, 2003; Sorrowful be the heart

Is the Skullgirls driver for PS3 sticks (I'm assuming DBZF will use it since Xrd does) a good enough option or should I get a PS3/4 Fighting Board and drop it into my old PS3 TE?

# ? Nov 6, 2017 23:07

NuclearPotato: Oct 27, 2011

It's plenty good as long as it's implemented properly (sup SF5), though I'd probably grab the PS3/4 Fighting Board anyways, just to be safe rather than sorry. But yeah, if you don't want to shell out the money for the board, the legacy drivers should work without any problems.

# ? Nov 6, 2017 23:27

Mad Lupine: Feb 18, 2011; all the things you said
running through my head

So I watched "Logan" yesterday and wanted to play as Wolverine in a fighting game. As I played marvel 3, I thought to myself, "I would have bought MVC:I if it had the xmen in it."

Logan just came out on Netflix. I'm pretty sure there are others like me who thought the same. Capcom/Disney are dumb.

# ? Nov 6, 2017 23:50

In Training: Jun 28, 2008

I guarantee you there are many many people at Capcom pissed that one of the most iconic characters for their long running marvel FG series wouldn't be let in due to licensing crap

# ? Nov 6, 2017 23:55

A.o.D.: Jan 15, 2006

Mad Lupine posted:

So I watched "Logan" yesterday and wanted to play as Wolverine in a fighting game. As I played marvel 3, I thought to myself, "I would have bought MVC:I if it had the xmen in it."

Logan just came out on Netflix. I'm pretty sure there are others like me who thought the same. Capcom/Disney are dumb.

That may change soon!

# ? Nov 7, 2017 00:50

SethSeries: Sep 10, 2013

If anyone is looking for a Qanba Obsidian for like 140 plus shipping, DM me. I�m looking to sell mine.

# ? Nov 7, 2017 01:17

PaletteSwappedNinja: Jun 3, 2008; One Nation, Under God.

Saint Freak posted:

If you only move half the copies you though you would, just sell double the dlc. Maybe get lootboxes involved. EZ

That only works if you're good at online. Capcom is loving awful at online.

# ? Nov 7, 2017 01:23

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

It's interesting how many of Ms. Fortune's better gimmicks depend on launching someone (whether it's with c. hp or fiber upper or whatever), and then delaying the air string until they've reached a certain height or it won't work -- and yet no guide I've ever seen mentions this. I guess it must be too obvious to someone who's already got it down.

# ? Nov 7, 2017 01:46

Broken Loose: Dec 25, 2002; PROGRAM
A > - - - LR > > - - LL > - - -

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

It's interesting how many of Ms. Fortune's better gimmicks depend on launching someone (whether it's with c. hp or fiber upper or whatever), and then delaying the air string until they've reached a certain height or it won't work -- and yet no guide I've ever seen mentions this. I guess it must be too obvious to someone who's already got it down.

This isn't unique to SG, although SG highlights it due to how openly available most information about the game is. There are loads of intuitive aspects to fighting games that aren't properly documented.

For example, another mechanic that SG highlights but is featured in every fighting game and nobody talks about is "guaranteed range," a topic which Skullgirls treats incredibly loving poorly.

Caggar did a video talking about how range is altered due to SFV's increased input delay. It's a good video and definitely worth a watch, as having moving hitboxes will make visualizing these examples a lot clearer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CBEVIDwge0

Basically, the hitbox of a move is not equivalent to the range of a move, because startup frames allow opponents who were in range when the move was executed to exit that range before the move is active. In SFV, this problem is exacerbated by input lag which adds to the effective startup of all moves. In SG, this problem is exacerbated by overly granulated hitboxes attached to animations on random timers.

https://twitter.com/broken_loose/status/853349167409836032

Now, "footsies is magic" and "combos are sometimes inconsistent for weird reasons" are things people just accept, but the truth is this: the human body is great at figuring out the right solutions for these sorts of problems before the brain can even deduce that there's any sort of math involved. If you play enough of a game, you'll feel out the distances where each button most consistently connects over time and commit it to muscle memory without ever realizing that you can't use the entire hitbox. If you're sensitive to visual information, it'll feel "janky" when the underlying systems of the game conflict in a way that forces you to whiff a move that was theoretically in range when you pressed the button.

Whether you play Injustice 2 or Battle Arena Toshinden, this is the type of poo poo that probably should be spelled out clearer before you develop bad habits. Of course, it's also part of the great journey of discovery that is Fighting Games.

# ? Nov 7, 2017 02:35

CRISPYBABY: Dec 15, 2007; by Reene

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

It's interesting how many of Ms. Fortune's better gimmicks depend on launching someone (whether it's with c. hp or fiber upper or whatever), and then delaying the air string until they've reached a certain height or it won't work -- and yet no guide I've ever seen mentions this. I guess it must be too obvious to someone who's already got it down.

I mean poo poo like this happens with all sorts of combos tbh. I liked the way Aris phrased it in some video I saw once, where he said something along the lines of "Most really hard combos are hard because they've got some sort of trick to them. And everyone writes down the buttons to do the moves, but no one writes down the loving trick."

# ? Nov 7, 2017 05:04

The Kins: Oct 2, 2004

https://twitter.com/FightCade/status/927543537591312384

# ? Nov 7, 2017 05:31

Reiley: Dec 16, 2007

Zand,

# ? Nov 7, 2017 05:57

In Training: Jun 28, 2008

CRISPYBABY posted:

I mean poo poo like this happens with all sorts of combos tbh. I liked the way Aris phrased it in some video I saw once, where he said something along the lines of "Most really hard combos are hard because they've got some sort of trick to them. And everyone writes down the buttons to do the moves, but no one writes down the loving trick."

I like the way Tekken plays little sounds with the strings to help you with timing the individual hits. Putting together screws and extenders are a matter of practice but at least it explicitly tells you the timing of the individual pieces

# ? Nov 7, 2017 06:55

Zand: Jul 9, 2003; ~ i'll take you for a ride ~ ride on a meteorite ~

now everyone whos anyone can play sokonuke taisen

# ? Nov 7, 2017 07:15

may contain peanuts: Sep 28, 2007; WOW what a grate sports paly by the 49rs (better than seahawks)

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Wait, it's actually possible to get the crossunder on that L. Fiber setup? I thought it was high/low/throw only!

Might not work on the heavyweights but I have definitely crossed under people by doing that setup.

High/low/throw isn't a 3 way mixup btw. It's a 2 way mixup, because highs and throws both lose to upback.

may contain peanuts fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Nov 7, 2017

# ? Nov 7, 2017 14:51

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

may contain peanuts posted:

Might not work on the heavyweights but I have definitely crossed under people by doing that setup.

Yeah once I knew that it was possible I could do it in training mode like 3 minutes later, although I still need to work on consistency. That's what prompted my "wow everything comes down to height" observation.

# ? Nov 7, 2017 16:38

Coca Koala: Nov 28, 2005; ongoing nowhere; College Slice

In Training posted:

I like the way Tekken plays little sounds with the strings to help you with timing the individual hits. Putting together screws and extenders are a matter of practice but at least it explicitly tells you the timing of the individual pieces

Guilty Gear Rev does this as well; when you watch a combo in the trials mode, you can see the inputs happening and it plays a little tone for each button press, so you get both visual cues (do the input when the screen looks like this) and audible cues (you should be pressing the buttons in exactly this rhythm). It's great.

# ? Nov 7, 2017 19:43

mysterious loyall X: Jul 8, 2003

FanaticalMilk posted:

It's definitely a thing, it's why companies like Tecmo Koei always have launch window titles for every system and why so many launch titles feel lacking in terms of content/polish. Getting the game out there while there is little to spend your money on means a higher chance of a sale.

I think Super Bomberman R had done half a million back in April, and was the best selling game in the series in Japan since 1998. Blaster Master Zero has gotten around 110,000 downloads as of the beginning of October. Both of these are games that would not have sold nearly this much had they been launched on Steam/PS4.

seems like the launch window for my ps4 has lasted about 3 years now 👏👏👏

# ? Nov 7, 2017 20:14

mysterious loyall X: Jul 8, 2003

CRISPYBABY posted:

Who wanted ExciteTruck with his Wii? This guy.

excite truck looks pretty fun 2me dunno about tilt controls tho

# ? Nov 7, 2017 20:15

DLC Inc: Jun 1, 2011

In Training posted:

I guarantee you there are many many people at Capcom pissed that one of the most iconic characters for their long running marvel FG series wouldn't be let in due to licensing crap

isn't it mainly due to pettiness and not so much licenses? I thought it only pertained to films, not games. Wolverine and the XMEN are still in Marvel Heroes.

# ? Nov 7, 2017 20:28

DoubleDonut: Oct 22, 2010; Fallen Rib

DLC Inc posted:

isn't it mainly due to pettiness and not so much licenses? I thought it only pertained to films, not games. Wolverine and the XMEN are still in Marvel Heroes.

it's because the films are way more profitable than anything else and Marvel/Disney/etc. doesn't want to put money and effort into advertising things that aren't in their own films

# ? Nov 7, 2017 20:33