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Your Boy Fancy posted:Don't be shocked if he gets primaried from the center, if only because he makes a point of not talking to party folks. Oh for sure I believe this is true and is the reason he'll be attacked.
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Nov 9, 2017 01:57
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Edit: that's what I get for sitting on the post screen for a bit.
Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Nov 9, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 02:00
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Let he/she who is not enslaved to read the insufferable gnashing of leftists trolls just to keep up with this thread imprison the first liberal.
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Nov 9, 2017 02:26
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WampaLord posted:This shouldn't be a reason to primary someone. Obviously. That said, never underestimate the power of pissing people off.
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Nov 9, 2017 02:30
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Your Boy Fancy posted:Obviously. That said, never underestimate the power of pissing people off. My favorite anecdote about relationships and pissing people off is in the airline industry. Essentially, in the Spring of 1992, American Airlines tried to stabilize pricing in the industry by pioneering a new structure (which was quickly adopted and hailed as a genius move) but ultimately didn't account for some of it's competitor's needs. What ended up happening was a few troubled carriers slashed prices until American essentially 'slapped' them with bottoming out prices along selected routes and forcing them to return to the established structure. Then during the summer Northwest, made up of management and executives who disliked Bob Crandall, the CEO of American, offered an 'adult flies free with a child' discount which is basically a 2-1 with the discount code 'FCKBOB'. Crandall reportedly lost his loving mind and ordered the slashing of route fares by 50% and what resulted was a price war that ended up destroying billions of dollars in the industry over the next year. Relationships, man.
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Nov 9, 2017 02:47
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Lightning Knight posted:Huh. Well, at least we replaced the other guy. The actual wage increase as described in the article gives them an extra couple years before it applies to them, yep. I got the impression from the call that he wasn't really in favor of increasing it for them up to that level at all, but I could be wrong there. Again, kinda irrelevant given the law got passed before the election. Honestly, reading about the election results is the first I'd heard about Andrea Jenkins, so I don't know anything about her policy preferences. When I spoke with Phillipe Cunningham in advance of the primary, he gave me his background, his history as an educator and as a public servant, and his experience as a black trans person. I came away from that conversation feeling like he was a strong progressive, and wish I would have spoken with him again after I had familiarized myself with the election some more, to be honest. I wasn't even thinking about the municipal elections when we had our conversation.
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Nov 9, 2017 02:47
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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Gulag_mortality_rate_1934_1953.PNG It's rather funny how by the time Stalin got likely assassinated by Beria for wanting to do another great purge the mortality rate was about where the American prison system ten years ago. https://www.bjs.gov/content/dcrp/dictabs.pdf (page 15). I mean if you do take some issue with putting away people for having wrong opinions, that's fine but to suggest the GULAG was a death sentence, is literally wrong.
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Nov 9, 2017 02:53
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Democracy Now's breakdown of the recent election results: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRbuKTDkpBc
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Nov 9, 2017 02:56
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King of Solomon posted:The actual wage increase as described in the article gives them an extra couple years before it applies to them, yep. I got the impression from the call that he wasn't really in favor of increasing it for them up to that level at all, but I could be wrong there. Again, kinda irrelevant given the law got passed before the election. That is unfortunate but not strictly surprising, most people have internalized the "minimum wage hikes kill jobs/small businesses" canard and it's sad and stupid. But yeah, it's good that it isn't an issue anymore. I'm glad you got to talk to him and you came away from the conversation with a good impression. 
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Nov 9, 2017 02:59
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https://twitter.com/TheInSneider/status/928434850381553665
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Nov 9, 2017 02:59
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all the money in the world? harsh but fair I suppose
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Nov 9, 2017 03:14
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Flavahbeast posted:all the money in the world? harsh but fair I suppose That's the name of the movie.
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Nov 9, 2017 03:14
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Lightning Knight posted:Comparing the suffering of everyone under capitalism to slavery or segregation is a one-way ticket to getting pilloried and I will feel no sympathy for you if it happens. Idk Frederick Douglass made made that comparison, and he's a man who knows his slavery. Frederick Douglass posted:The fortunate ones of the earth, who are abundant in land and money and know nothing of the anxious care and pinching poverty of the laboring classes, may be indifferent to the appeal for justice at this point, but the laboring classes cannot afford to be indifferent. What labor everywhere wants, what it ought to have, and will some day demand and receive, is an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. As the laborer becomes more intelligent he will develop what capital he already possesses that is the power to organize and combine for its own protection. Experience demonstrates that there may be a wages of slavery only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other. Because capitalists were making the exact same argument then that they were today "well you're not slaves so stop whining that you're compelled by our economic system to work like a dog for the pittance we decide you should get" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Nov 9, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 03:14
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Covok posted:That's the name of the movie. 
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Nov 9, 2017 03:20
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Gulag =/ Jail the gulag was a reformation jail system complicated by the harsh realities of the war. don't @ me
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Nov 9, 2017 03:50
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Pretty sure a Gulag is what Google is because they fired that nazi.
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Nov 9, 2017 03:52
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VitalSigns posted:Idk Frederick Douglass made made that comparison, and he's a man who knows his slavery. I specifically said, if black people want to make that argument, black people are free to make that argument. I laid out my reasons later in the conversation for why I don't think that non-black leftists should be making it, however.
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Nov 9, 2017 03:54
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Lightning Knight posted:I specifically said, if black people want to make that argument, black people are free to make that argument. I laid out my reasons later in the conversation for why I don't think that non-black leftists should be making it, however. Yeah but even making it a tactical question concedes that the underlying argument is in fact true, and the question is only about in what situations using this true argument would be effective. If that line of reasoning is used to try to dismiss the evils of segregation and slavery well then that's obviously bad, but it's also a strawman because that is a (a) not argument Douglass was making, and (b) is easily shown to be false without discrediting the actual true argument that wage slavery is another (less bad, but still pernicious) form of slavery. On the other hand, if the argument used to educate white people about the ways in which the system oppresses them and to show them that they actually have more in common with the black people that they're taught to hate and fear than with the rich fucks paying them nothing then blaming them for being to poor to afford health care and to convince them that they ought to join a rainbow coalition of working class voters united against exploitation and white supremacy, well that's a bit different and there may be some benefit to a white person making that argument when trying to convince other whites.
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Nov 9, 2017 04:16
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Lightning Knight posted:black people are free Just to make that one argument  I kid, carry on. KickerOfMice fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Nov 9, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 04:28
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but even making it a tactical question concedes that the underlying argument is in fact true, and the question is only about in what situations using this true argument would be effective. I don't think it's a tactical question, I'm just not about to tell black people they can't make the analogy about their own history. If you think that's an extremely arbitrary moral standard, then that's fine, but that's how I feel on the matter. The highlighted part is the other problem I have with this, insofar as I think that this is an extreme understatement. Chattel slavery and its associated systems were orders of magnitude worse than anything any other group in American history has experienced before or since with perhaps the sole exception of Native peoples. It's very difficult to deploy an effective comparison of class oppression to slavery that threads the needle on explaining exactly how awful slavery was without reducing its limited analogous value to basically zero. I'd argue it's possible to argue that "white people [...] actually have more in common with black people that they're taught to hate and fear" without directly comparing class struggle to chattel slavery, as well. And I agree, we need a rainbow coalition of working class workers that practice true solidarity. The other big problem here, however, is that I think the comparison to slavery has a chance to backfire on you if its misinterpreted, and because we do not teach people about how bad slavery actually was and how deep and long-lasting its effects have been on the country, and I think that chance is unpleasantly high. Lightning Knight posted:I mean, ok, you want a political reason? Because it promotes a soft white grievance narrative that implies that white people can feel justified in feeling like they've been oppressed by the system as much as black people due to capitalism, and consequently deny that specific redress is needed to combat the inequality between black and white workers. It undermines the two-way nature of solidarity by implying that white people don't need to take extra steps to ensure solidarity with black people to address how even working class white people have participated in racial hierarchies. Like I said, I don't think the argument is inherently racist in and of itself, or that Ytlaya (and other people who make this argument) aren't making a worthwhile point. I just think that morally, rhetorically, and historically, it is at best a severe oversimplification and at worse a minimization of chattel slavery and the ensuing historical racism that followed it. ^ yes they are, and we are better off. Now we need to make that freedom more meaningful by eliminating racism. Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Nov 9, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 04:28
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Yes it seems very arbitrary to me to say that white people aren't allowed to agree with Frederick Douglass because someone somewhere might do so in bad faith.
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Nov 9, 2017 04:41
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VitalSigns posted:Yes it seems very arbitrary to me to say that white people aren't allowed to agree with Frederick Douglass because someone somewhere might do so in bad faith. Frederick Douglass was coming from the perspective of having his life shaped by slavery, of having lived it, of knowing exactly the magnitude and reprehensibility of it and from a position of dong whatever it took to make the world a better place for people like him. People in the 21st Century, especially people whose lives have not been shaped by the deep, unrelenting racism that black people experience every day, using the experience of people like Douglass as a tentpole in a broader argument - especially in a way that will minimize what slavery actually was to many people, intentionally or not - is pretty hosed up imo. There are a million different ways to promote solidarity between white and black workers and discuss the effects of modern capitalism without jumping right to the slavery comparison.
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Nov 9, 2017 04:46
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Lightning Knight posted:Now we need to make that freedom more meaningful by eliminating racism. Literally "but will it solve racism?" You know what helps out minorities? More money. I'm not saying it's a panacea, but I am saying being poor and black is way worse than being middle class and black.
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Nov 9, 2017 04:47
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WampaLord posted:Literally "but will it solve racism?" Of all the different ways to interpret that statement, "we shouldn't make changes that don't lead to the immediate end of racism" is a legitimately creative one. And I agree, but I don't see how my statement implied opposition to economic change. I literally just said, black people are free [from slavery] and that's good, but that is not enough. How can you possibly interpret that as being against leftism in any way?
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Nov 9, 2017 04:48
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Lightning Knight posted:People in the 21st Century, especially people whose lives have not been shaped by the deep, unrelenting racism that black people experience every day, using the experience of people like Douglass as a tentpole in a broader argument - especially in a way that will minimize what slavery actually was to many people, intentionally or not - is pretty hosed up imo. This is a strawman though. Douglass' essays on the subject were directed at people who didn't have direct experience of slavery, it is odd to say that he wouldn't have wanted those people to agree with him.
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Nov 9, 2017 04:53
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VitalSigns posted:This is a strawman though. I don't agree that it is a strawman, because framing arguments so that they can't be easily misinterpreted is an important aspect of good rhetoric. Also Douglass was writing in a time when slavery still existed or had recently existed and most people were directly familiar with it culturally. We are writing in a time when slavery has been gone for many generations and knowledge of it for the vast majority of the population comes from bad history textbooks.
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Nov 9, 2017 04:55
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R. Guyovich posted:the gulag was a reformation jail system complicated by the harsh realities of the war. Page 2 quote:By the time the Gulag system was abandoned as a major instrument of Soviet industrial policy, the primary distinction between slave and free labor had been blurred: Gulag inmates were being paid wages according to a system that mirrored that of the civilian economy described by Bergson By the end, there wasn't much difference between the Gulag and the Soviet civilian labor market. This paper is seriously fascinating but I don't think we'd agree on the reason why.
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Nov 9, 2017 04:56
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Lightning Knight posted:And I agree, but I don't see how my statement implied opposition to economic change. I literally just said, black people are free [from slavery] and that's good, but that is not enough. How can you possibly interpret that as being against leftism in any way? Your entire argument with VitalSigns is "Don't try to promote class consciousness (in this specific way), because it might come across as racist." This is basically the entire divide between centrists/leftists as I see it now. Someone on the leftist side proposes an idea and the centrist side goes "But will it solve racism?"
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Nov 9, 2017 04:57
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WampaLord posted:Your entire argument with VitalSigns is "Don't try to promote class consciousness (in this specific way), because it might come across as racist." That is directly contrary to what I've been saying. I did not say "do not promote class consciousness." I am saying "this specific argument is not a good one, and here are the reasons I think why." If "promoting class consciousness is bad because it's racist" is what you're getting from my posts, or that I am a self-identified centrist, your reading comprehension may be poor.
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Nov 9, 2017 04:59
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Lightning Knight posted:I don't agree that it is a strawman, because framing arguments so that they can't be easily misinterpreted is an important aspect of good rhetoric. Also Douglass was writing in a time when slavery still existed or had recently existed and most people were directly familiar with it culturally. We are writing in a time when slavery has been gone for many generations and knowledge of it for the vast majority of the population comes from bad history textbooks. He was writing to people who never experienced it and who were saying "slavery is gone so why are you still poor" I agree that "framing arguments so they can't be easily misinterpreted is an important aspect of good rhetoric" obviously, but (a) that has no bearing on whether the underlying argument is actually true, only whether it's being effectively communicated and (b) just because someone somewhere might state the argument badly doesn't justify accusing anyone making it of being a secret slavery apologist or applying a weird reverse paper-bag test to who is allowed to agree with what opinions.
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Nov 9, 2017 05:00
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Lightning Knight posted:If "promoting class consciousness is bad because it's racist" is what you're getting from my posts, or that I am a self-identified centrist, your reading comprehension may be poor. Fair enough, I apologize, it's been a somewhat heated day.
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Nov 9, 2017 05:01
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In that case the Gulag mirrored our own system, it is just at least according to that paper (based on a fond from GARF), Gulag prisoners were being paid 50-70% of civilian wages. Also, during the late 1940s, there was a severe famine in the Soviet Union, exacerbated by the loss of manpower and the end of lend-lease. I also theorize that there was also a silent collapse of the Soviet oil industry during this era in the Caucasus (which is why the transition to the Western Siberian fields was prioritized to the extent it was).
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Nov 9, 2017 05:01
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VitalSigns posted:He was writing to people who never experienced it and who were saying "slavery is gone so why are you still poor" Yes, but that lack of experience was still coupled with a fundamental understanding and experience of what slavery meant in the broader culture, and often what slavery looked like at least in part. I also don't agree that the argument is true, as I've already said. Wage slavery and class oppression are bad and pervasive but I don't think that chattel slavery is a good comparison for them, both because chattel slavery was generally much more severe and because the mechanics of chattel slavery were different from general class oppression in significant ways. Chattel slavery has more in common with feudal serfs (especially in say, pre-revolution Russia) than it does with modern class oppression, and even that comparison isn't very good. I don't think that people making the argument are slavery-apologists, I just think that the argument itself runs the risk of minimizing what slavery was and this is compounded by it being deployed by people who haven't experienced racism for themselves. I don't think black people have some inherent right to the argument by virtue of race, I merely think that their direct experience with the consequences of racism intersecting with class oppression means that they are much better equipped than most of the rest of us to decide how comfortable they are with deploying the argument and less likely to misrepresent exactly how awful slavery actually was without thinking. WampaLord posted:Fair enough, I apologize, it's been a somewhat heated day. 
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Nov 9, 2017 05:06
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I'm with Lightning Knight only because my primary thought about the comparison is "who the hell are you trying to convince?" Throw that at someone who is economically privileged and bought into the system and it only looks like minimizing chattel slavery. It's not my read on it, but I'm already a commie.
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Nov 9, 2017 05:09
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Lightning Knight posted:Yes, but that lack of experience was still coupled with a fundamental understanding and experience of what slavery meant in the broader culture, and often what slavery looked like at least in part. Anyway American capitalism historically has operated more similarly to chattel slavery than it does now (because of the success of the twentieth century labor movement in abolishing those similarities). Freedmen sharecroppers still had the majority of their labor stolen by landowners and while it was an undeniable improvement that they could no longer be sold, is the "freedom" to choose which plantation owner will be the unearned beneficiary of your sweat and tears really freedom? Abolishing slavery was obviously a necessity, but it's not the end of the road. Are you free if you work in a company town where your employer controls every aspect of your private life and ensnares you into debt by charging higher prices for food and housing than he pays you in wages. Lightning Knight posted:I don't think that people making the argument are slavery-apologists, I just think that the argument itself runs the risk of minimizing what slavery was and this is compounded by it being deployed by people who haven't experienced racism for themselves. I don't think black people have some inherent right to the argument by virtue of race, I merely think that their direct experience with the consequences of racism intersecting with class oppression means that they are much better equipped than most of the rest of us to decide how comfortable they are with deploying the argument and less likely to misrepresent exactly how awful slavery actually was without thinking. Just because a black person is better equipped to make the argument without loving it up somehow and thus is more likely to be successful with it, doesn't mean it's impossible for any white person to ever do it, it just means that white people should be extra vigilant that the cognitive biases created by their experiences aren't leading them astray. The other side of the coin is that white people often have more success getting through to fellow white people in discussions about race issues. If a white person is trying to minimize or whitewash slavery sure shut that down, but if they're trying to convince fellow white people to reject white supremacy and join an anticapitalist coalition I don't think we should declare such an argument automatically off limits.
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Nov 9, 2017 05:38
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Edit: are y'all seriously talking about chattel slavery like it was purely an economic injustice???
Der Waffle Mous fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Nov 9, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 06:41
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Edit: are y'all seriously talking about chattel slavery like it was purely an economic injustice??? If one declares that all of history is explained by the categories of class struggle, then one has to explain history in terms of class struggle. They should more closely look at Hegel. In a lot (but certainly not all!) of protestant theology, the demonic is the false perfect idea mistaken for the ineffable Real.
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Nov 9, 2017 07:02
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that dad fucks
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Nov 9, 2017 07:51
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Ardennes posted:In that case the Gulag mirrored our own system, it is just at least according to that paper (based on a fond from GARF), Gulag prisoners were being paid 50-70% of civilian wages. the work credit system outlined in the second paper combined with the "moral incentive" system and rehabilitative culture neither document goes into detail about shows the system was very different than what most americans think of as prison labor
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Nov 9, 2017 07:55
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Ardennes posted:In that case the Gulag mirrored our own system, it is just at least according to that paper (based on a fond from GARF), Gulag prisoners were being paid 50-70% of civilian wages. 
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Nov 9, 2017 08:11
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