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Mors Rattus posted:Green Ronin has put out a new statement, and one by someone who at least realizes the last one looked bad. The fact that it got so bad speaks to major changes still being needed there, though. If they actually start making some then we'll see.
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Nov 9, 2017 20:58
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The only thing I didn't like there was the "when leadership gets back," which suggests this isn't the official GR posture.
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Nov 9, 2017 21:11
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moths posted:The only thing I didn't like there was the "when leadership gets back," which suggests this isn't the official GR posture.
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Nov 9, 2017 21:13
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moths posted:The only thing I didn't like there was the "when leadership gets back," which suggests this isn't the official GR posture. It said back in-office. As much as their feet should be held to the fire, this is a common issue in all businesses where telecommuting/work from home/etc is a thing. Things don't get communicated to some people as effectively via e-mail as they do in person.
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Nov 9, 2017 21:21
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Bummer that OrcaCon is also managed by douchebags, that sounded like a cool idea. https://twitter.com/_Danicia_/status/928459433369264129
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Nov 9, 2017 21:27
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It's disappointing because she's definitely taken the "GR can't be wrong because they're ~good people~" and is ignoring that to people who don't have her insider knowledge of the situation their ~good people~ behavior has looked a whole lot like everyone else's bad behavior. I expect them to get it right and do better in the future, but I also expect them to analyze their own reaction and identify the issues with it (which that statement did a good job of).
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Nov 9, 2017 21:38
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admanb posted:It's disappointing because she's definitely taken the "GR can't be wrong because they're ~good people~" and is ignoring that to people who don't have her insider knowledge of the situation their ~good people~ behavior has looked a whole lot like everyone else's bad behavior. I expect them to get it right and do better in the future, but I also expect them to analyze their own reaction and identify the issues with it (which that statement did a good job of). That's really what bugs me about GR's handling that left me so sour on the company. They absolutely know what they're saying when they act like the onus is on everyone but them to vet these guys and that hey don't they deserve a pass for being such good folks? They're hiding behind their rep in a really gross way that kinda taints everything about them to me. It's like they think not being a lovely person is what you do to get points that you get to cash out in situations like this. Her going right for the 'they're a bunch of white knights and you're ignoring GR'S women when you believe them!!!!' is just a symptom of this kinda toxic poo poo.
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Nov 9, 2017 21:44
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It's real easy to brand yourself the Woke Good Guy Company whose single highest priority is "a commitment diversity, safety, and respect for all", that requires no effort at all. But they were called upon to act on their oh-so-progressive credentials and they completely and spectacularly poo poo the bed. Words are loving cheap.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:13
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Peas and Rice posted:I'm really disappointed that GR a) didn't just sever and call it good, and b) keeps digging. It almost reads like they're defensively drunk/angerposting at this point. Yeah, all they had to do was say something along the lines of "We were mid-investigation when more information came to light, and in light of that new information, have fired him immediately; we apologize for not being quicker." Take the small hit now for being slow rather the being pissy about it and coming off as dramatically insincere and lovely about it. All their constant bickering and trying to defend themselves have done since then is make them look worse and worse. It is absolutely angerposting. Mostly this is just a fun reminder that the tabletop industry continues not to understand what PR is and continues to generally eschew the idea, to absolutely easily foreseen consequences.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:31
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Also that there's no step back to understand that there's more than one thing going on at once. This is not a pat on our backs because seriously we're posting on Something Awful, but even in this thread there was a distinction made between the bad actors throwing around unsubstantiated accusations for their own ends, AND also a very real problem coming to light. Both can be true at the same time. EDIT: I mean, we're still giving the side eye to the antisemitism part of the accusation, but at this point the harassment is clearly well established and more than enough to justify banishing Suleiman to the nether realms. I'm no PR person but goddamn, just open with: quote:There were prior accusations of a different nature we had looked into and had good reason to believe were unreliable. Today we became aware of a separate set of accusations and have now responded to that. We will be making changes to ensure that should something similar happen in future, we will not allow two separate issues to become conflated. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Nov 9, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 22:34
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I have decided that I, personally, forgive Green Ronin. Not because of any actual effort on their part, but because being holier-than-thou and hypocritical is apparently super normal for lots of people in current discourse, and because I have already long since died inside so I don't feel much anymore when things like this keep on happening. I feel like this might have meant something but I don't buy any products from Green Ronin, either way.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:41
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On a broader scope for the industry as a whole, this whole mess is worrisome even if we were to assume good faith on the part of company dealing with accusations (which I personally am not yet ready to grant in this case). False accusations are a thing that happens. That's what led to Alison Rapp getting terminated by Nintendo, after all, so it's not even a new approach. It's bad when a company doesn't do due diligence and just throws employees under the bus to avoid PR problems. But it's just as bad, maybe even worse, when a company is skeptical of everything and automatically takes an antagonistic view of accusations. That none of these companies seem to be taking a serious, hard look at setting standards to differentiate between the two, and articulating how and why they're making the distinction, is not a good sign.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:49
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Comrade Gorbash posted:But it's just as bad, maybe even worse, when a company is skeptical of everything and automatically takes an antagonistic view of accusations. It's also just stupid. Stupid, to respond at all beyond "we're looking into this", until you as a company have reached a conclusion about what you think happened and how you are going to respond to it. Like, I don't run a company, I'm not qualified to do that, but it's loving obvious as hell to me that the wrong response 100% of the time is to let your employees post their immediate kneejerk reactions to anything of a serious nature. Whatever the intent of Green Ronin, good or bad, it speaks very poorly to the basic level of intelligence of the people involved so far that they didn't immediatley go "woah this is serious" and then shut the gently caress up (publicly) until it'd been discussed at length internally.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:00
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Comrade Gorbash posted:On a broader scope for the industry as a whole, this whole mess is worrisome even if we were to assume good faith on the part of company dealing with accusations (which I personally am not yet ready to grant in this case).
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Nov 9, 2017 23:01
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ProfessorCirno posted:Mostly this is just a fun reminder that the tabletop industry continues not to understand what PR is and continues to generally eschew the idea, to absolutely easily foreseen consequences. It's alternatively a reminder that they understand exactly what PR is, and this is an example of catering to the extremely wrong crowd.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:07
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sexpig by night posted:Bummer that OrcaCon is also managed by douchebags, that sounded like a cool idea. quote:Hi all! e: corrected pronoun FMguru fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Nov 9, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 23:14
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The real victim here is Nicole Lindroos, who had her out-of-state vacation ruined by all this hubbub!
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Nov 9, 2017 23:17
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FMguru posted:She just popped up in RPGnet to do some damage control on that tweet. Uhh.. is their argument "Since he was a part of the industry it was his duty to keep it in the industry and rather than letting us handle it quietly he forced GR to act openly and that's terrible." cause.... yeah gently caress that. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Nov 10, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 23:28
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Kurieg posted:Uhh.. is her argument "Since he was a part of the industry it was his duty to keep it in the industry and rather than letting us handle it quietly he forced GR to act openly and that's terrible." No, they are claiming people have told them about Wendig being a dick, I think??? And now everyone should sit down and wait for Green Ronin to release their timeline of events because everyone of importance is out of town, despite the massive activity GR's been having the past few days.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:32
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I don't know, the idea that he should have gone to GR first rather than "muckraking", when by GR's own admission they had known for a long while and were doing their own investigation (and only acted now because Wendig forced their hand) is bullshit. Companies hide and protect bad actors all the goddamn time. Especially where claims of sexual assault are concerned. The alternate reading is 'Ignore what Wendig says because he's a dick' when even dicks can be right sometimes. They're just usually dicks about it.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:36
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And that dumb rear end response is rightfully being hammeredquote:I don't know Wendig from Adam and I can't speak to that.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:39
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(You can criticize Danicia without getting their pronouns wrong; they're right there in the quoted text) I'm willing to give Danicia slack for a ragepost made on twitter while on a train. I think from their perspective, it really does look like some guy with a pre-existing beef barging in to disrupt an active investigation and throw industry women under the bus. For someone who went through some of the worst GG had to offer, that's got to be a raw nerve. The fact that it seems like the supposed investigation was kind of a crock and GR was instead spending their efforts on attacking the accusers for their choice of allies isn't really something Danicia had any control over or likely any knowledge of.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:45
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At this point it's less the ragepost and more the continued defense of GR and the urging people to wait for this timeline and saying how all the big names were out of town so they need time.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:46
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She's straight up lying though. They weren't investigating poo poo because Lindroos had already decided that she did all the investigating she needed and was confident CAS was a saint. Or do words not mean what they usually mean any more? How can you be ''investigating'' if you just said ''I have investigated and decided everything is fine.'' e: Wendig doesn't have any ''beef'' and the victims chose him as a trusted ally to confide in and go public with the information. Let's not throw the victims under the bus.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:49
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Yea the ragepost was dumb but excusable in context, but they just keep running in to defend GR and say 'guys guys the timeline is coming any day now' without actually adding anything.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:50
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Tendales posted:The fact that it seems like the supposed investigation was kind of a crock and GR was instead spending their efforts on attacking the accusers for their choice of allies isn't really something Danicia had any control over or likely any knowledge of. They're speaking from authority about an issue they don't have perfect knowledge of and that's just  personified at this point.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:52
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sexpig by night posted:Yea the ragepost was dumb but excusable in context, but they just keep running in to defend GR and say 'guys guys the timeline is coming any day now' without actually adding anything.  If you zoom in you can clearly see the relationship between "Chuck Wendig", the Trilateral Commission, Gladio Lodge P2, and the Executive Committee of the Horror Writers of America.
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Nov 10, 2017 00:00
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Comrade Gorbash posted:20 days, 21 hours, 15 minutes. No. The fact that this silence is being broken is good. It's not pleasant, but a lot of hobbies and their industries are have some growing up to do. It sucks hearing about some of these guys knowing their acquaintances and fans. It's goddamned awful that these things have happened, but the world where women were just subjected to this kind of behavior without recourse was an objectively worse one. But it's also going to take a lot of honesty and constant vigilance going forward. And just remember there are a lot of fine and decent people in the hobby, and the hobby is great. There are just some poo poo people in it. Always are, really, it's just a matter of figuring out how we face that.
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Nov 10, 2017 00:01
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FMguru posted:A photograph of an early draft of The Timeline has been leaked: I knew Pepe Sylvia was a trouble case!
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Nov 10, 2017 00:02
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Alien Rope Burn posted:No. Otherwise yeah I agree, if this poo poo is going on, it must be brought into the light and dealt with.
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Nov 10, 2017 00:11
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Christ, this whole thing is like some sort of educational skit about why using social media to hash out serious poo poo is the worst loving idea. And the only one who seems to have figured that out without sticking their face right in the fecal explosion appears to be guy who raped a minor. EDIT: I mean, I'm glad social media is available for the actual victims to air their grievances. But all the venting of spleens by third parties who are mixing up communications about who said what and where ends up eating up a good chunk of that benefit by turning the whole thing into a muddled mess most people won't be able to sort through and probably won't want to try. Desiden fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Nov 10, 2017 |
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Nov 10, 2017 00:12
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Comrade Gorbash posted:Otherwise yeah I agree, if this poo poo is going on, it must be brought into the light and dealt with. "Let all the poison that lurks in the mud, hatch out." - I, Claudius
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Nov 10, 2017 00:13
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I only hope that this current wave actually leads to 'don't let bad actors get away with poo poo anymore' being a cultural norm, as opposed to just cutting out the most visible scapegoats and pretending like the whole system is magically fixed now.
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Nov 10, 2017 00:19
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In about 3 days we’re due to find out Greg Stolze ate a guy and John Wick is the same guy as those movies.
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Nov 10, 2017 00:21
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FMguru posted:A photograph of an early draft of The Timeline has been leaked: There's been an addition to the timeline. 
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Nov 10, 2017 00:22
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rumble in the bunghole posted:and John Wick is the same guy as those movies. That would actually be a marked improvement though.
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Nov 10, 2017 00:27
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Alien Rope Burn posted:The fact that this silence is being broken is good. This is where I'm at. I'm blessed in that I've only witnessed a minimum of toxicity of this kind in the hobby, but I know the hobby at large has some serious problems that, in the past, it's only tried to address in fits and starts. Everything that's going on is absolutely a good sign, and the fact that it seems like the voices decrying this behavior are so much louder than the voices defending or excusing it is great. Sucks that it happened in the first place, but maybe we can work toward an environment where toxic behavior will be kept at a minimum from here on out (and called out when it does happen.)
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Nov 10, 2017 00:27
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Kai Tave posted:That would actually be a marked improvement though. turns out the player characters killed his dog.
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Nov 10, 2017 00:44
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Can't be a dog killer if you didn't take Skill Focus: Killing the Dog.
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Nov 10, 2017 00:47
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Tendales posted:I only hope that this current wave actually leads to 'don't let bad actors get away with poo poo anymore' being a cultural norm, as opposed to just cutting out the most visible scapegoats and pretending like the whole system is magically fixed now. It worked for antisemitism after WWII and racism in the 1960s, so I'm confident this too will be done away with for good.
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Nov 10, 2017 00:49
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