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xthetenth posted:That's why I'm pretty fond of the Wargame series, because it uses some pretty gamey mechanics, but it tries to make the decision loop of the gameplay line up with the real life counterpart, and it's got some solid combined arms action as a result. You're right, and it's a good idea if you're making a strategy game, but what I'm most interested in are the cases where compromise is inevitable. How do you go about making a FPS about WW2 that is both fun as a video game but also bears at least a passing resemblance to history? It's basically the modern version of a discussion that's been happening among historians about historical fiction for as long as there have been modern academic historians to wring their hands over what novelists are up to.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:36
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Ainsley McTree posted:Real talk though, pissing history aside, R:TW’s gameplay made for a fun campaign. Rome is a beastly juggernaut whose greatest enemy is itself At least it made sense that Rome was this hegemonic empire. God's knows I've burned enough hours on Medieval I and II, but it's loving stupid when the Scottish empire reaches Jerusalem, and immediately starts raising highland warriors.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:45
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If have archives, find the Darkest or Days LP. A guy who worked on the game posted in the thread. Apparently the person in charge of it thought that WWI was the one with the nazis.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:45
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Stop making me want Wartime Logistics Tycoon. 
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Nov 9, 2017 22:46
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Jobbo_Fett posted:My method for making an amazing shooter game: Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus. HEY GUNS posted:press f to blow up spain's economy Press nothing and Spain's economy detonates anyway.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:50
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Mr Enderby posted:At least it made sense that Rome was this hegemonic empire. God's knows I've burned enough hours on Medieval I and II, but it's loving stupid when the Scottish empire reaches Jerusalem, and immediately starts raising highland warriors. Didn’t Rome 1 have a mechanic where your legions were actually extremely valuable because you could only recruit them in your starting territories? I seem to remember that until you got your conquered provinces built up you were stuck with local less-than troops. But it’s been ages since I played it. Ensign Expendable posted:If have archives, find the Darkest or Days LP. A guy who worked on the game posted in the thread. Apparently the person in charge of it thought that WWI was the one with the nazis. I remember watching that LP and being really confused why the main supporting character seemed to think the Germans were nazis...that uhhh explains it, I guess?
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Nov 9, 2017 22:53
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Mr Enderby posted:At least it made sense that Rome was this hegemonic empire. God's knows I've burned enough hours on Medieval I and II, but it's loving stupid when the Scottish empire reaches Jerusalem, and immediately starts raising highland warriors.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:56
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 Roma est omnis divisa in partes tresIn a semi-milhist related question, is there a name for the region in Germany between the Moselle and the Rhine? I was playing Hearts of Iron IV as France and that's usually what I try to take, though I mostly get my poo poo pushed and retreat to the Maginot Line. Should probably call it the "French Press".
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Nov 9, 2017 23:01
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Rockopolis posted:
It's just the west bank of the Rhine.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:03
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Jobbo_Fett posted:My method for making an amazing shooter game: Press F to stay suppressed. <2 hours later> Press F to stay suppressed. Also, suddenly the Germans show up driving Shermans because the system failed to locate the correct fiddly cardboard chit and had to improvise.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:12
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Isn't it the Eifel?
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Nov 9, 2017 23:12
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Comrade Koba posted:Press F to stay suppressed. You can tell which units are the best by the rounded corners
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Nov 9, 2017 23:37
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StashAugustine posted:there's a neat series of blog posts on how national stereotypes are expressed in games: http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2010/11/05/national-characters/ I remember this, I got distracted only reading half the list by something and never returned.
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Nov 10, 2017 01:37
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Ensign Expendable posted:I'd play Sim Tank Factory. Congratulations, comrade factory director, your shithole tin can workshop is now the host to evacuated personnel and equipment vital to the war effort, hope you don't gently caress up. I feel like we still have so much to scratch deeper in asymmetric games like this. Think about how in EVE-Online they tried to have a FPS side of the game to handle land combat in parallel with space combat. Imagine if Space Book was a completely separate game to be played on a phone. So now imagine if we had a WWII RTS/Grand Strategy game where factory management was handed by other humans playing on mobile devices or the browser; they got bonus points based on good feedback from the front line. "Comrade Ryan's factory produces very reliable tanks, give him a commendation."
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Nov 10, 2017 01:48
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Nov 10, 2017 03:14
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Rockopolis posted:
That's the Rhineland. The bit north of the Moselle is the Eifel, the bit south of it the Hunsrück, presumably you're grabbing the Saarland and the Pfalz as well, which are to the south of the Hunsrück. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland
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Nov 10, 2017 03:35
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Raenir Salazar posted:I feel like we still have so much to scratch deeper in asymmetric games like this. Think about how in EVE-Online they tried to have a FPS side of the game to handle land combat in parallel with space combat. If it's anything like my experience in Foxhole, it'll probably result in a horrible shitshow where the respawn point has maximum security, the resource sites surrounded by a convoluted maze of walls, and some useless fart has suddenly declared that he is the quartermaster and is spamming the team chat. Meanwhile the people holding the frontline have to share a single rifle and a hand grenade. The rifle is out of ammo.
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Nov 10, 2017 04:31
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Was there any point during the Napoleonic Wars where Napoleon could have 'cashed out' and retained control of France to at least its natural frontiers? (Belgium, the Alps, west bank of the Rhine, etc)? Or were the British and other continental powers absolutely dead set on knocking France back to its pre-Revolutionary borders and restoring the monarchy?
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Nov 10, 2017 05:41
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The British government were always going to be determined to put the boot into Napoleon no matter what and well the man had certainly made more enemies than friends by 1810. And no, Russia doesn't count. The Tsar is a starfucker.
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Nov 10, 2017 05:44
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Raenir Salazar posted:I feel like we still have so much to scratch deeper in asymmetric games like this. Think about how in EVE-Online they tried to have a FPS side of the game to handle land combat in parallel with space combat. I thought they tried RTS/FPS games where a PC player gives orders and console players duke it out. From what I hear, it didn't work too well. From my experience of World of Tanks, even matches where a guy with a top down view (playing artillery or spectating) trying to command the battle works poorly even when everyone has real time voice comms and are committed to victory together.
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Nov 10, 2017 05:55
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You'd have to have an alternate universe where Napoleon was a better diplomat and either party wanted the war to end. There was a whole thing where France itself got a better deal that it could've cashed out with, but then Napoleon went for his round 2 and the rest of Europe felt like it needed to really make sure that didn't happen again. Napoleon was pretty good at some things, but politicking around to make a sustainable peace was not one of them. At some point he was basically just trying to take over all of Europe, which was a real overreach.
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Nov 10, 2017 06:24
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Can anyone identify what this green hanging orb on this Luftwaffe Field Division dude's belt is? I'm assuming it's some sort of grenade but I'm so used to seeing the stielhandgranate that I don't know what any other German grenades look like.
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Nov 10, 2017 06:25
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Class Warcraft posted:Can anyone identify what this green hanging orb on this Luftwaffe Field Division dude's belt is? Model 39 hand grenade.
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Nov 10, 2017 06:26
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Nenonen posted:I can already play Panzer General/Corps and ejaculate over my Maus columns attacking Washington D.C. and getting a Rugged Defense result. But strategy games are for sophisticated scholarly players! Which installment is this?  StandardVC10 posted:They could license The Clash to play over the ending credits. There's actually a ton of good music from the period. I have a double CD of songs by the CNT-FAI youth choirs. Only bummer is that everyone singing on it probably died horribly 
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Nov 10, 2017 07:25
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Cyrano4747 posted:You're right, and it's a good idea if you're making a strategy game, but what I'm most interested in are the cases where compromise is inevitable. How do you go about making a FPS about WW2 that is both fun as a video game but also bears at least a passing resemblance to history? I remember there being talk about strategy gaming stuff like the Winter War (since I'm Finnish and people here have a really weird relationship with our WW2 experience), and really the only way to do something like that is to make it seriously asymmetrical. I haven't played it myself but apparently DC: Barbarossa is pretty good at making asymmetry playable.
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Nov 10, 2017 09:13
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Was there any point during the Napoleonic Wars where Napoleon could have 'cashed out' and retained control of France to at least its natural frontiers? (Belgium, the Alps, west bank of the Rhine, etc)? Or were the British and other continental powers absolutely dead set on knocking France back to its pre-Revolutionary borders and restoring the monarchy? Napoleon could definitely have cashed out in 1813 had he wanted to. He probably would never have gotten the British to agree, but if the other continental powers could've been satisfied by France giving up a few things, the British could probably have been given something. But then, this was Napoleon, and his thing was not really being satisfied. Ensign Expendable posted:I thought they tried RTS/FPS games where a PC player gives orders and console players duke it out. From what I hear, it didn't work too well. From my experience of World of Tanks, even matches where a guy with a top down view (playing artillery or spectating) trying to command the battle works poorly even when everyone has real time voice comms and are committed to victory together. The main problem is that it's really not fun in the slightest to be an RTS unit, and it's not really fun to try to command FPS players. It's not a good mix. Trying to mix up the genres often kinda results in mish-mashes like this. Kemper Boyd posted:I remember there being talk about strategy gaming stuff like the Winter War (since I'm Finnish and people here have a really weird relationship with our WW2 experience), and really the only way to do something like that is to make it seriously asymmetrical. I haven't played it myself but apparently DC: Barbarossa is pretty good at making asymmetry playable. The Soviet gameplay is a lot more of a simple counter pusher with leader-shuffling and dealing with the Threat/Competence dynamic, whereas the Axis gameplay has all the interpersonal/supply/etc. disputes. It's still an interesting game.
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Nov 10, 2017 11:27
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The Luftwaffe's panzer division is my favorite bit of WW2 trivia, because nothing encapsulates better the incompetency and petty infighting at the heart of the 3rd Reich. "Hitler?" "Yes, Göring?" "I want a tank division" "But you are in charge of the air force?" "Yes, but I want a tank division" "..." "...so am I getting a tank division or what? I'll call it the Para-Tank division" "Göring, that doesn't even make any goddamn sense" Geisladisk fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Nov 10, 2017 |
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Nov 10, 2017 12:22
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Panzeh posted:The main problem is that it's really not fun in the slightest to be an RTS unit, and it's not really fun to try to command FPS players. It's not a good mix. Trying to mix up the genres often kinda results in mish-mashes like this. C&C Renegade multiplayer and its successor Renegade X are a lot of fun, and Battlezone 2 was also a lot of fun and could probably be tweaked into a decent multiplayer game.  Though I like a review's summation of why the hybrid genre doesn't usually work: "FPS players don't want to think; RTS players don't want to die." 
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Nov 10, 2017 13:04
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FAUXTON posted:Model 39 hand grenade. Fun fact: IMA sells inert reproduction Model 39 grenades and I currently have one sitting in a US mess kit on a shelf.
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Nov 10, 2017 13:11
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chitoryu12 posted:Fun fact: IMA sells inert reproduction Model 39 grenades and I currently have one sitting in a US mess kit on a shelf. Show us!
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Nov 10, 2017 13:16
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my dad posted:C&C Renegade multiplayer and its successor Renegade X are a lot of fun, and Battlezone 2 was also a lot of fun and could probably be tweaked into a decent multiplayer game. Renegade didn't really have much in terms of the RTS side other than being based off the property. Most notably, no commander(which is probably for the best). I mean, would you, as an RTS player, want your units doing whatever they decided to want to do? As an FPS player, do you literally want to stand around and pick your nose, doing nothing but exactly what someone else wants?
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Nov 10, 2017 13:18
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Tias posted:Show us! When I get home from work! It’s sitting in front of part of my canteen collection.
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Nov 10, 2017 13:19
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Panzeh posted:Renegade didn't really have much in terms of the RTS side other than being based off the property. Most notably, no commander(which is probably for the best). Really the only RTS elements were hitting a building with a spanner as an engineer, pressing a button on console to get vehicle and well having some poor sucker collect the resource needed to make stuff. But if you've been playing Foxhole recently with some of us goons, my dad's theory seems correct as rarely nobody bothers with the basics of logistics and they dump it onto one guy who's more interested in building the perfect well fort and truck parking space than providing what is needed from the front.
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Nov 10, 2017 15:47
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SeanBeansShako posted:nobody bothers with the basics of logistics and they dump it onto one guy who's more interested in building the perfect well fort and truck parking space than providing what is needed from the front.
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Nov 10, 2017 15:48
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Panzeh posted:The main problem is that it's really not fun in the slightest to be an RTS unit, and it's not really fun to try to command FPS players. It's not a good mix. Trying to mix up the genres often kinda results in mish-mashes like this. There's a Source engine mod called Empires that has a lot of neat features and is a full fledged RTS/FPS hybrid. It can be a really good game but much like with Natural Selection of old, it mostly results in people screaming at each other and having meltdowns. And the optimal way to play it is to be a complete dickhead and undermine the enemy's resource production instead of actually fighting them. You spend a lot of time shooting at harvesters which does not a great FPS make.
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Nov 10, 2017 16:21
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FAUXTON posted:Model 39 hand grenade. This led me down a grenade wikihole and quote:However, it became apparent that the Mk 1 grenade was quite difficult to use in the field. The grenades were often not ignited properly before being thrown, and enemies would return the grenade, this time properly lit. The MK 1 was immediately recalled and production stopped.
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Nov 10, 2017 16:45
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SeanBeansShako posted:Really the only RTS elements were hitting a building with a spanner as an engineer, pressing a button on console to get vehicle and well having some poor sucker collect the resource needed to make stuff. I'm honestly shocked that anything happens at all in foxhole.
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Nov 10, 2017 17:15
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aphid_licker posted:That's the Rhineland. The bit north of the Moselle is the Eifel, the bit south of it the Hunsrück, presumably you're grabbing the Saarland and the Pfalz as well, which are to the south of the Hunsrück.
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Nov 10, 2017 17:21
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The problem with RTS/FPS hybrids is that they won't at all work with interchangeable players/PUGs and pretty much would only work in a more disciplined setting like a Clan/Corporation/Alliance ala EVE or the more hardcore raid guilds in WoW in a 'natural' sense. You'd have to otherwise design the game from the ground up to account for the fact that people are assholes and want to Lone Wolf it to heavily discourage behavior detrimental to the team while encouraging beneficial behavior. The way that games reward points for teamwork could be worked in to allow a RTS Player to possibly kick or transfer uncooperative players while also insuring that they couldn't abuse that feature along with other safe guards. It'd take a lot of design work to create a system where the players that end up in Command roles mostly deserve to be there and won't egregiously gently caress it up for everyone and foot soldier players feel like they're appreciated, contributing, and motivated. I *can* see it work, but it couldn't be half assed. One thing I'd put in would be that the FPS mode you might not play a conventional shooter, but instead you command a squad of NPC grunts and only have limited access to weapons (i.e a pistol) in something more similar to a MOBA; but players who do want to play a regular shooter need to join your squad/fire team and you as team leader can kick them if they aren't being helpful. Basically keep the mechanics consistent and scaleable. But that wasn't really what I was thinking in terms of an asymmetrical cooperative transgame. Suppose an RTS like Close Combat or Men of War, but you're the available equipment you pick prior to the start of the mission is dependent on what another player, playing on his phone, build in their "Factory". The Factory player doesn't actually see or is at all a part of the front line (outside of some special exception like a Stalingrad scenario); he's just connecting nodes together, upgrading the skills of his workers, purchasing licenses/blueprints to produce newer stuff, improving quality/quantity, and then putting it all in a box and sending it to you/the market, like EVE but you never the station.
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Nov 10, 2017 17:22
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Honestly the best RTS/FPS ish thing I've ever done is the ArmA gamemode where it picks towns you have to assault and the server just has to work out how to do that. You can play it with a command structure, but it also works quite well just as cooperative companies of people trying to do it in their own little groups. It's like anarcho-syndicalist warfare and it's pretty great
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Nov 10, 2017 17:42
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