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Truth Quark posted:My GM is convinced that Bladesinger is brokenly overpowered and refuses to allow it for a PC. His argument is that the main balance checks on wizards are the fact that they can be focused down in combat quite easily if they play incorrectly, which manifests as both just straight up dying and failing concentration saves to maintain spells. Bladesinger removes all of those weaknesses (except you still have a d6 hit die in melee), and in exchange you lose access to other arcane traditions which in his mind don't offer nearly as many bonuses as Bladesinger does. I forgot what exactly Bladesinger looked like in 5E so I did a quick Google search. First result that came up was an EN World thread calling the Bladesinger "the most annoying wizard ever" repeating pretty much what your DM is saying. Is your DM the type that lurks character optimization forums? If that is the case I doubt you'll be able to sway their opinion much. After looking over them again I don't see anything wrong with Bladesinger. They aren't as good in melee as a class designed specifically for melee plus they'll be burning spell slots and actions dancing around in melee while a straight up blaster wizard can use those spell slots and actions to blast things. SwitchbladeKult fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Nov 9, 2017 |
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Nov 9, 2017 20:28
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GFB works alongside War Magic for Eldritch Knights, so they're still getting two attacks: one GFB and one bonus attack. This kinda falls off when they get their third attack, though.
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Nov 9, 2017 20:35
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Malpais Legate posted:GFB works alongside War Magic for Eldritch Knights, so they're still getting two attacks: one GFB and one bonus attack. This kinda falls off when they get their third attack, though. Ah, cool! They just hit level 6 so I hadn't seen that yet. Thanks for the heads up!
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Nov 9, 2017 20:53
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Kaysette posted:It is annoying and that recently came up in the game I'm running for new players since one is a bard.
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Nov 9, 2017 21:04
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Nickoten posted:Bladesinger is fine because at the end of the day it's a Wizard but now you can do some melee and have decent AC when you need to. Cool. Right now I'm thinking of trying it out and seeing how it'll work, assuming Bladesingers are still Wizards at their core. Meaning the ability to find new spells and swap currently memorized ones. I almost want to go the templar route, with one that is looking for answers and is rather brutal about getting them. Either through forced mind control, or through cutting down enemies that stand in their way. I'll have to figure out how to mesh the whole "Can cast spells" thing, as I more wanted a zealot that was capable of terrifying feats. I realize the paladin has a zealot sub type coming with Xanthars. Also a possibility.
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Nov 9, 2017 21:15
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SwitchbladeKult posted:I forgot what exactly Bladesinger looked like in 5E so I did a quick Google search. First result that came up was an EN World thread calling the Bladesinger "the most annoying wizard ever" repeating pretty much what your DM is saying. Is your DM the type that lurks character optimization forums? If that is the case I doubt you'll be able to sway their opinion much. The best way to use bladesinger to me seems like ignoring those mediocre melee options and just being a blaster/control/whatever wizard whose archetype power is "way better AC/concentration than other wizards". Move speed is a boon too. The real tradeoff is the opportunity cost of not getting poo poo like portent.
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Nov 9, 2017 21:35
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:The best way to use bladesinger to me seems like ignoring those mediocre melee options and just being a blaster/control/whatever wizard whose archetype power is "way better AC/concentration than other wizards". Move speed is a boon too. The real tradeoff is the opportunity cost of not getting poo poo like portent. This is only real cost to picking bladesinger, so I guess the question is: outside of things like the Lucky feat etc, how good are the other arcane traditions?
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Nov 9, 2017 21:51
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Illusionists get to make an illusion real, which sounds awesome, but doesn't come until level 14 or something. I haven't read all of them but diviners get portent, which is basically pre-rolling a couple die each day that you can substitute in anywhere. Get a 5 or something? Give it to an enemy on their save-or-suck saving throw.
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Nov 9, 2017 21:54
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I thought portent was really lame until I reread it and discovered it substitutes basically any roll. A 1 is equally as powerful as a 20, the middling numbers are the real letdowns. Using it offensively or to support your allies excites me.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:04
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Divination and Illusion are notably stronger than the other schools but I don't think any of them are bad. That said if you want to play an evoker wizard I'm not seeing much opportunity cost just taking Spellblade over Evocation.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:06
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:The best way to use bladesinger to me seems like ignoring those mediocre melee options and just being a blaster/control/whatever wizard whose archetype power is "way better AC/concentration than other wizards". Move speed is a boon too. The real tradeoff is the opportunity cost of not getting poo poo like portent. Yeah, Bladesinger "suffers" from the fact that their melee abilities will never be as good as the spells they can cast, something familiar to people who played 3.x gishes. Likewise, their HD will always be low. It's kinda like blade pact warlock in that sense - sure, you could use your melee stuff you got from your archtype or whatever they're called...or you could just continue to use your far superior stuff from your base class and just treat your bladesinger abilities as a fun side effect with a defensive boost.
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Nov 9, 2017 22:15
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ProfessorCirno posted:Yeah, Bladesinger "suffers" from the fact that their melee abilities will never be as good as the spells they can cast, something familiar to people who played 3.x gishes. Likewise, their HD will always be low. It's kinda like blade pact warlock in that sense - sure, you could use your melee stuff you got from your archtype or whatever they're called...or you could just continue to use your far superior stuff from your base class and just treat your bladesinger abilities as a fun side effect with a defensive boost. I think the difference is that the "side abilities" are really strong and genuinely hold up to the alternatives in a way blade pact doesn't, at least imo. (Though tbh I'd probably always pick chain, having a little imp buddy sounds amazing.)
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Nov 9, 2017 22:22
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I'm playing a School of Necromancy Wizard and it's pretty neat. It doesn't really start warming up until level 6. What makes it fun for me is equipping your skeletons with gear from things you kill. It is very DM dependant so YMMV depending on how your DM interrupted the bit in the MM that says "A skeleton can fight with weapons and wear armor, can load and fire a catapult or trebuchet, scale a siege ladder, form a shield wall, or dump boiling oil. However, it must receive careful instructions explaining how such tasks are accomplished." A few skeletons with longbows and a few in heavy armor and you got yourself a nice personal escort.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:04
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Basically, caster/fighter types in 3e and 5e will more or less always have strain to deal with because casting is in of itself simply better then fighting. Taking a spellcaster and putting them in melee combat is almost always a mechanical downgrade.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:24
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Truth Quark posted:Well the issue isn't so much Bladesinger vs multiclass options, because you can take both. If you multiclass you are delaying your spells by a level which is a decent drawback. His main issue is that, compared to other arcane traditions (abjuration, divination, etc) bladesinger just seems to offer way too much. Advantage on concentration saving throws is legitimately pretty strong. I don't think its game breaking, but I'm also of the opinion that giving powerful tools to your players is never a bad thing because it makes the game more fun. I bring up multiclassing because if you take a level of Fighter there's very little left to gain from being a Bladesinger. Just take Warcaster and you're done. You don't get an extra attack, but the SCAG cantrips substitute for that anyway. I see Bladesinger as almost exclusively a subclass for people who don't want to lose spell levels to get AC or proficiencies. As far as what the schools have to offer, Abjuration, Divination and Illusion are pretty good schools if you're trying to be a caster who hangs back and controls or blasts. Illusion and Necromancy are good to fit an archetype you might decide to play because their skills are pretty specialized. Conjuration and Enchantment seem largely worse than Bladesinger. Abjurer gets a ward to protect from the few hits they expect to receive, and it's powered by casting spells like Shield which you'd probably be casting anyway. Eventually they can project it onto allies for a moment (more good control) and eventually they become really good anti-Mage mages because they get better at counterspell, dispel, saves versus spells and damage from spells. Divination is good because it gets to change dice rolls, including enemy saves. Basically you get to decide reality a couple times per day (later three) on an even greater level than a wizard normally would, because it means their save or die spell becomes just a die spell. This would be enough, but they also get really good buffs to intelligence gathering spells that let them do things like regain slots after casting Scrying or just decide for the day that they will see all invisible creatures or read any language. Evocation Wizards aren't super powerful but they fill a really good niche: they let you be a wizard who's just casting fireballs willy nilly into crowds that include your friends and not hurt them at all. You also get better at blasting general because you get to add your ability modifier to spells, and later you can maximize the damage of your spells once per day and more times if you let yourself take damage. Again, not a necessary suite of features for many players, but the Evocation School offers some genuinely useful features that many players would be happy with. Illusion School's 14th level feature (make illusions partially real) is super cool, but the rest is mostly going to be a question of how much you use illusions (which is legit, illusions can be really powerful depending on the game). They get a combat feature that lets you make an attack miss once per short rest which is fine I guess. The Necromancy School is not bad; it increases most of the numbers you'd want to have increased if you want to be a Necromancer: higher hp on skeletons, more skeletons, better to-hit on skeletons, etc. Eventually you can steal skeletons from other wizards. If you make a character whose schtick is specifically necromancy, you'll probably pick this subclass. The Transmutation school has a suite of miscellaneous versatility-related abilities if you want to feel like Batman. The big one is that you get a stone that can grant benefits you can change every day, like damage resistance or a speed increase. It's okay, but it only gets really cool at level 14 when you can use it to cast raise dead or restore youth to people without using spells. You also get to transform into a CR 1 creature once per short rest for utility purposes. This school seems like it's supposed to be for people whose schtick is being ready for anything, but then every subclass kinda gets that already because they're loving wizards. Enchantment and Conjuration get some spell-like effects reproducing things they can largely already do, so they can save spell slots. They're just okay, and probably the schools I'd think of first when I think of Bladesinger obviating anything. The thing is, I think these schools were already kinda unremarkable on release compared to the cool poo poo you get in the schools above.
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Nov 9, 2017 23:52
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ProfessorCirno posted:Basically, caster/fighter types in 3e and 5e will more or less always have strain to deal with because casting is in of itself simply better then fighting. Taking a spellcaster and putting them in melee combat is almost always a mechanical downgrade. Pour one out for the 4e fighter 
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Nov 10, 2017 00:03
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The gish type subclasses are more for fun and flavor than being combat superstars. Nothing I've seen so far that's been published has been game breaking except maybe the Observant feat. Maybe some Unearthed Arcana stuff but that's play-test stuff. 5E has been good at making sure everyone gets to shine. It is really silly to ban Bladesinger imho just cause they have good AC. There are plenty of fun and interesting ways to challenge PCs with high AC.
SwitchbladeKult fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Nov 10, 2017 |
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Nov 10, 2017 00:23
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Truth Quark posted:This is only real cost to picking bladesinger, so I guess the question is: outside of things like the Lucky feat etc, how good are the other arcane traditions? Abjurers have a fair amount of temp HP to hand out, are the second best counterspellers (behind Lore Bards), and at high levels, gain both advantage on saves against spells, as well as resistance to any damage they deal. Fairly high-tier overall, in my opinion. Conjurers offer a utility belt and a cheap short range teleport, both of which are decent but not fantastic. Focused Conjuration removes the risk from getting hit with Conjure Elementals active, though a single CR 5 elemental isn't nearly as powerful as a few dozen buffed up skeletons that the Necromancer brings to the table. Fun fact: Durable Summons affects Find Familiar, as that's a Conjuration spell, so your 2 HP familiar becomes a 32 HP familiar at level 14. Still vulnerable, but less one-shottable. Divination has Portent which makes them automatic top tier, despite the below-average usefulness of their other features. Enchanters don't have great low level features, but their level 10 and 14 features are amazing, and I think they're very underrated for mid to high level games. At level 10, they can twin-cast any enchantment spell that hits a single target, which includes all Charm/Hold X spells (when cast at their base slot), Otto's Irresistable Dance, and Power Word Stun/Kill. They also get some serious narrative power from their level 14 feature, allowing them to selectively mess around with NPC memories. Evocation Wizards are self-explanatory. Their usefulness depends on how many fights a DM throws at you that includes lots of mooks on the field. At 14, Overchannel lets them deal respectable damage to even single targets 1/day. Potent Cantrip is some hot garbage, though. The only evocation cantrip that forces a save isn't even in the PHB. When I played one of these as my first foray into elfgaming, I misread Sculpt Spell to say that my allies still had to roll and pass my save to get 0 damage instead of half, so I think I risked friendly fire all of one time that whole campaign. Gotta love natural language  Illusion's usefulness depends on how the DM handles illusions. Could be amazing battle circumventers, but they could also be low-tier. Once they can temporarily make illusions real at 14, a creative player can do some pretty awesome stuff. A less creative one can still get some walls/cages on a battlefield for a cheaper slot cost than other options. Necromancers were probably the original source of conversation in this thread about why spellcasters are OP due to the Undead Thralls feature, which adds the Wizard's level to all undead minions' HP and the proficiency bonus to all damage rolls from said minions. Despite their inaccuracy, even the 30 or 40 skeletons accessible by level 10 can still end a lot of enemies in a round or two. If every encounter takes place in an open field where all of those skelemans can bring their bows to bear every round, they're top tier. However, their biggest enemies (apart from anyone with a non-counterspellable AoE) are the narrow corridors in this game's titular dungeons, the "humanoid" requirement on corpses to animate which makes replacing losses ethically complicated outside of evil campaigns, and needing digital assistance to roll 30+ attack rolls per round without grinding the table to a halt. Transmuters can get proficiency in con saves via the transmuter stone, so no need to multiclass or grab Resilient to get it. Moreover, they can hand that proficiency to anyone in the party. The level 14 feature can fully heal/restore or raise dead in a pinch, though it breaks your transmuter stone which takes some time to replace.
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Nov 10, 2017 00:31
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Admiral Joeslop posted:After talking to the current GM, my three shot has turned into a mini campaign that will go through November and most, if not all, of December. What do people use to keep notes and write things out for a IRL session? I don't want to drag my laptop along if I can help it, so something besides Notepad that I can print out would be great. From last page, but maybe Trello? It’s basically virtual index cards and can be accessed via a web browser or app, so you could type up what you need on a laptop and then reference it in-session on your phone or tablet.
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Nov 10, 2017 00:49
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SwitchbladeKult posted:The gish type subclasses are more for fun and flavor than being combat superstars. Nothing I've seen so far that's been published has been game breaking except maybe the Observant feat. Maybe some Unearthed Arcana stuff but that's play-test stuff. 5E has been good at making sure everyone gets to shine. It is really silly to ban Bladesinger imho just cause they have good AC. There are plenty of fun and interesting ways to challenge PCs with high AC. ...Uh, nobody here is saying you should ban the Bladesinger. We've said the opposite - that the Bladesinger is frankly not that powerful, and indeed gets less powerful the more you actually try to play them as a fighter of some type. For the same reason the blade pact warlock suffers, though less so - because their core chassis not only has very few tools to assist them in melee, and because their base chassis comes with far stronger options baked into it.
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Nov 10, 2017 05:10
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The conversation started because someone's DM wanted to ban Bladesinger, not because anyone here suggested it.
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Nov 10, 2017 05:42
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Banning Bladesinger is dumb but Bladesinger is a dumb archetype anyways so nothing of value is lost.
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Nov 10, 2017 05:45
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ProfessorCirno posted:...Uh, nobody here is saying you should ban the Bladesinger. We've said the opposite - that the Bladesinger is frankly not that powerful, and indeed gets less powerful the more you actually try to play them as a fighter of some type. For the same reason the blade pact warlock suffers, though less so - because their core chassis not only has very few tools to assist them in melee, and because their base chassis comes with far stronger options baked into it. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse things. I was responding to Truth Quark saying his DM banned people from playing Bladesinger because it was "too powerful". I agree with everything you and others have said about it. mango sentinel posted:The conversation started because someone's DM wanted to ban Bladesinger, not because anyone here suggested it.
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Nov 10, 2017 06:06
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mango sentinel posted:Divination and Illusion are notably stronger than the other schools but I don't think any of them are bad. That said if you want to play an evoker wizard I'm not seeing much opportunity cost just taking Spellblade over Evocation. Spellblade?
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Nov 10, 2017 17:30
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Ferret posted:Spellblade? Bladesinger. Sorry mixing up a bunch of generic Gish-type names.
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Nov 10, 2017 17:36
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Magicutlass Hocus Pokers Mage Guisarme
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Nov 10, 2017 17:43
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mango sentinel posted:Bladesinger. Sorry mixing up a bunch of generic Gish-type names. Ah! I just wanted to make sure I hadn’t missed some official content somewhere. Thanks!
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Nov 10, 2017 17:44
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Wizspike. Chargadin. Bardbarian. Wait poo poo this isn't the Diablo 2 thread
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Nov 10, 2017 17:57
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What does "Gish" mean anyway?
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Nov 10, 2017 18:02
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Soylent Pudding posted:What does "Gish" mean anyway? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gish It has never made much sense to me as a term.
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Nov 10, 2017 18:04
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Splicer posted:Magicutlass 
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Nov 10, 2017 18:05
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Manawrassler Hexenboxer Spelloeira Mestre
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Nov 10, 2017 20:15
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A class specialized in piloting special magical strength-augmenting magical armor: Hexoskeleton.
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Nov 10, 2017 20:25
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unseenlibrarian posted:A class specialized in piloting special magical strength-augmenting magical armor: Hexoskeleton. this class exists in far superior game Shadow of the Demon Lord
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Nov 10, 2017 20:27
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Serf posted:this class exists in far superior game Shadow of the Demon Lord You're gonna have to either tell me some more details about this, or link me to the post with more details in the SotDL thread.
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Nov 10, 2017 20:37
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Serperoth posted:You're gonna have to either tell me some more details about this, or link me to the post with more details in the SotDL thread. There is an path called Engineer you can take at Master tier that gives you a robot warrior buddy, but then at max level you install a cockpit in it and can pilot it around like a mecha. Here's the F&F post where I discuss it
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Nov 10, 2017 20:46
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unseenlibrarian posted:A class specialized in piloting special magical strength-augmenting magical armor: Hexoskeleton. There's also the Fate-based game Iron Edda, where you play Viking warriors piloting "mecha" made out of enchanted giant bones to fight dwarf-made clockwork machines.
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Nov 10, 2017 21:20
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Splicer posted:Mage Guisarme
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Nov 10, 2017 21:21
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Truth Quark posted:I guess the real question I'm asking is, what does a bladesinger have to give up that other wizards bring to the party? Because it seems to me that it is stronger than the other traditions, but not by enough to merit banning from a campaign imo. I think that the Bladesinger does have some power creep going on, particularly for low-level parties, but I also think that a Gish Wizard isn't really a significant threat to game balance because defeating a high AC is more doable than dealing with many of the high level wizard abilities. As a DM, if I wanted to gently caress with a Bladesinger character I'd throw surprise ranged attacks at them followed by withdrawals when they activated their Blade Song. At higher levels I'd use magical incapacitation spells like Blindness/Deafness or Entangle that have saves that the Wizard is weak to, or else sensory deprivation spells to zone out the Bladesinger during combat (Silence or Darkness). To my mind, the Bladesinger can be defeated fairly easily because it has poor synergy between its features. That being said, allowing multiclassing does change things significantly here since the class is so front-loaded. But 5e doesn't have great multi-classing balance so that's just part of that Pandora's Box.
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Nov 11, 2017 00:52
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I'm confused by Hex Warrior in Xanathar's. It starts "Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property," and then it continues, "if you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type." Does the "no matter the weapon's type" imply that you can Hex Warrior a two-handed weapon? I can't think what else it would be referring to, as there are no other restrictions on what weapon you can use with Hex Warrior.
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Nov 11, 2017 01:20
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