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Lord_Hambrose posted:How much would requiring a Detachment to be totally full before another one can be chosen from the same codex help the 8th Edition scene. Getting an 2000 point list in one detachment is pretty easy. I worry when I see lists that are a hyper optimised blend of three different Space Marine Chapters (or currently Hive Fleets) that all the good things from 8th will be overshadowed by becoming even more toxic than the worst excesses of 7th. This would completely neuter all allied armies. As in make them practically impossible.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:21
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Lord_Hambrose posted:How much would requiring a Detachment to be totally full before another one can be chosen from the same codex help the 8th Edition scene. Getting an 2000 point list in one detachment is pretty easy. I worry when I see lists that are a hyper optimised blend of three different Space Marine Chapters (or currently Hive Fleets) that all the good things from 8th will be overshadowed by becoming even more toxic than the worst excesses of 7th. Like typical GW, they didn’t think this through. They committed to a more streamlined, easier to penetrate game (which is good imho) but didn’t spend enough time evaluating how that would effect the game when you apply a power gaming mindset to it. 7th already had a big problem with people having to enforce “fun, casual” armies in their opponents and 8th is in danger of making that worse. The players shouldn’t have to balance the game.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:24
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The detachments aren't really a problem - the broken units are. Twin Asscans, Imperial Lascannons, Stormravens, and Hurricane Bolters are too cheap. Bobby G is too good, especially in conjunction with the aforementioned things. Smite is too good when its unlimited and on sub-50 point models. If you fix those things, the fact that you can bring a Marines detach, an IG detach, and some Sisters isn't a big deal.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:26
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Ran 3k of Nids this afternoon against Marines and DG. Tabled them by round three. Absolutely insane firepower in this book. Had a Malanthrope babysitting a Tyrannofex, two Exocrines and three Hive Guard with a dakka Flyrant, thirty Devilgaunts, OOE and three screamer Killers up the middle. Smashed so much face that I left my Genestealers and Deathleaper in reserve and never bothered to deploy them. Ran Leviathan, and the 6++ was constantly useful.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:28
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JoshTheStampede posted:The detachments aren't really a problem - the broken units are. Twin Asscans, Imperial Lascannons, Stormravens, and Hurricane Bolters are too cheap. Bobby G is too good, especially in conjunction with the aforementioned things. Smite is too good when its unlimited and on sub-50 point models. If you fix those things it won't be a big deal to mix in marines as allies because vanilla marines won't have anything left that's competitive with the other codexes. Marines are limping along on the backs of lascannons and twin assault cannons with rerolls, it's so common to see because outside RG infiltrating shenanigans it's all we've got.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:31
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JoshTheStampede posted:The detachments aren't really a problem - the broken units are. Twin Asscans, Imperial Lascannons, Stormravens, and Hurricane Bolters are too cheap. Bobby G is too good, especially in conjunction with the aforementioned things. Smite is too good when its unlimited and on sub-50 point models. It's not people bringing detachments of different armies that people have issues with. It's people taking a detachment of Raven Guard to sit in the backfield, a detachment of Ultramrines to get buffed by Guilliman and another detachment of Black Templars for assaulting or some other bullshit like that chutche2 posted:If you fix those things it won't be a big deal to mix in marines as allies because vanilla marines won't have anything left that's competitive with the other codexes. Yeah, it's pretty tough to argue that marines san-guilliman need nerfing.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:31
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Pendent posted:It's not people bringing detachments of different armies that people have issues with. Even though I got completely crushed by an army doing just this, I like that it's a viable thing and you get rewarded for doing it. It makes narrative play a lot of fun. Then again, I don't partake in tournaments, so there's that.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:36
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Guillman might need nerfing but marines as written don't work without heavy use of reroll bubbles. With pedro kantor and an Lt I finally found something that works for me, rerolling all misses and rerolling wound rolls of 1 for a few key units makes up for my lower volume of fire and lower body count than the other armies by greatly upping my quality of shooting. It's gone from me getting blown out most games with my Iron Hands to doing really well against most lists with my Crimson Fists. Reroll auras are the backbone of the marine codex, Guilliman has a really strong one with his reroll wounds bubble but there's several other sources of rerolling hits. That's just the playstyle they chose to give marines, and nerfing those plus nerfing key heavy weapons that make marine shooting worthwhile would cripple the army. Yeah it'd stop the guilliman/asscan/lascan spam at the highest levels but it'd also shut down all the mid-level marine players.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:38
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TKIY posted:Ran 3k of Nids this afternoon against Marines and DG. Tabled them by round three. How did the Tyrannofex fare compared to the Exocrines? Beside the range, I can't image their plasma being less useful. Basically I want to avoid buying a Tyrannofex because I already have two of the gun beasts and love them so.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:39
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JoshTheStampede posted:The detachments aren't really a problem - the broken units are. Twin Asscans, Imperial Lascannons, Stormravens, and Hurricane Bolters are too cheap. Bobby G is too good, especially in conjunction with the aforementioned things. Smite is too good when its unlimited and on sub-50 point models. All this stuff is yesterday's news my dude. The SM book is miles behind. The simplest fix I can think of if you wanted to get rid of mixed-tactic detachments would be something like "any ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit included in a Battle-forged army must select a <CHAPTER>. All such units in the army must select the same <CHAPTER> even if they are in separate Detachments." Doesn't stop you taking some Cadians and Ultramarines together and getting the benefits if they're in separate detachments, but no more RG+UM+CF or whatever. I think like lots of things in 8th, GW actually intended you to be able to mix traits in a single army, they just didn't think through what that would look like when optimisers got their hands on them. Living Image fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Nov 13, 2017 |
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Nov 13, 2017 22:40
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I can see why its annoying, since you're taking the tradeoffs of the detachment system and making it less impactful. If Jormundagr is supposed to be sneaky, subterranean life forms with little fliers, throwing in an Outrider detachment of all your flying units replaces the Jorm drawback with, say, the Gorgon firepower bonus. Its the same reason why Space Marines are hampered by chapter tactics not counting for vehicles, when every other faction's does: what started as a trade off of something vs nothing became a tradeoff of something vs something, often in a way that heavily reduces the limit part. Like, it goes from "I'm Hydra, so my gribblies are best" to "my Gants and Stealers are Hydra, but my Fexes and Warriors are Behemoth, and I've got a Kronos Flyrant ready in the wings just in case I need firepower . . ." The Bee fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Nov 13, 2017 |
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Nov 13, 2017 22:44
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chutche2 posted:Guillman might need nerfing but marines as written don't work without heavy use of reroll bubbles. With pedro kantor and an Lt I finally found something that works for me, rerolling all misses and rerolling wound rolls of 1 for a few key units makes up for my lower volume of fire and lower body count than the other armies by greatly upping my quality of shooting. It's gone from me getting blown out most games with my Iron Hands to doing really well against most lists with my Crimson Fists. Reroll auras are the backbone of the marine codex, Guilliman has a really strong one with his reroll wounds bubble but there's several other sources of rerolling hits. That's just the playstyle they chose to give marines, and nerfing those plus nerfing key heavy weapons that make marine shooting worthwhile would cripple the army. Yeah it'd stop the guilliman/asscan/lascan spam at the highest levels but it'd also shut down all the mid-level marine players. Isn't this all of 8th, though? I can't think of any armies that don't need reroll or buff auras. It's a pretty central component. It's certainly the case for my AdMech, and is definitely the case for Chaos Daemons.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:49
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Had my first game of 40K since early 2012 yesterday, having never played 6th or 7th edition. I was up against my friend who has also started getting back into it and had started a small Chaos Space Marines army. We kept it to a small playing area and a power level of 50, and no vehicles. I lost narrowly, but even with both of us starting out again it’s a vast improvement on the old editions. I painted my army between late 2009 and late 2013, and aim to resume painting this winter. Apologies for the lighting and dust.         I still have a squad of Lychguard, Immortals, Imotekh, shitloads of scarabs and a Night Scythe to paint. I also have a Doomsday Ark to build and some warrior to immortal conversions to finish. No more buying models for me, at least not for a long time.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:56
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I like the idea of Ultramarines and Imperial Fists working together or whatever, it's my favorite art piece in 40k: I can see how it feels off for Nids to mix hive fleets as that almost never happens in the fluff, but it seems like sour grapes to try and stop it from happening.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:58
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I'm personally fine with mixing chapters if each chapter is fully painted and distinct If you're playing a grey horde army (Not that I'm much better since only my infantry is painted) then you can gently caress off if you want to use multiple chapter tactics
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Nov 13, 2017 23:01
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PierreTheMime posted:How did the Tyrannofex fare compared to the Exocrines? Beside the range, I can't image their plasma being less useful. Basically I want to avoid buying a Tyrannofex because I already have two of the gun beasts and love them so. Honestly it was very good. I didn't even realize that it was S: User, and the spray doesn't care when the BS degrades. It was beastly. AP -1 is middling but when you can consistently throw 12 hits on a target plus the stinger salvo it's a great centerpiece. I realize the thing that Tyranids do best: target saturation. I had three big spores behind his line at the bottom of turn one plus ripper swarms and Raveners. They drew so much fire that my front line basically just had to roll up and wreck poo poo. The only thing that really hurt me was a dual charge from a Helbrute and Prince. They messed up one screamer killer and really hurt OOE but he managed to claw them both to death.
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Nov 13, 2017 23:04
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chutche2 posted:I'm personally fine with mixing chapters if each chapter is fully painted and distinct This x 100. Don't loving tell me your Blood Angels Tanks are White Scars. You want to take advantage of the chapter tactics, you paint them accordingly. I only use Mars for my AdMech cause that's what they're painted as.
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Nov 13, 2017 23:05
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Lord Ludikrous posted:Had my first game of 40K since early 2012 yesterday, having never played 6th or 7th edition. I was up against my friend who has also started getting back into it and had started a small Chaos Space Marines army. We kept it to a small playing area and a power level of 50, and no vehicles. I lost narrowly, but even with both of us starting out again it’s a vast improvement on the old editions. Almost missed this, welcome back and love the alabaster Necrons! Mine are painted similarly and it's a great scheme.
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Nov 13, 2017 23:15
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Zuul the Cat posted:This x 100. Don't loving tell me your Blood Angels Tanks are White Scars. You want to take advantage of the chapter tactics, you paint them accordingly. I don't really give a poo poo if someone wants to run their ultramarine painted dudes as white scars, but they're not running half as white scars and half as ultramarines.
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Nov 13, 2017 23:17
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MasterSlowPoke posted:I like the idea of Ultramarines and Imperial Fists working together or whatever, it's my favorite art piece in 40k: Yes, this looks awesome. It looks way less awesome if you make all the space marine gray instead. Or even if they're all blue or yellow. I have a mixture of biel tan and iyanden painted dudes, where the latter are exclusively wraiths. And I'll run them together because that looks cool and it's even fluffy, since those two craftworlds used to be best buds until biel tan went a little too elf supremacy and iyanden got slaughtered by space bugs.
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Nov 13, 2017 23:22
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chutche2 posted:I don't really give a poo poo if someone wants to run their ultramarine painted dudes as white scars, but they're not running half as white scars and half as ultramarines. What if they paint the rims different?
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Nov 13, 2017 23:24
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chutche2 posted:I don't really give a poo poo if someone wants to run their ultramarine painted dudes as white scars, but they're not running half as white scars and half as ultramarines. Playing that lovely BA player just left a bad taste in my mouth and I refuse to let anyone proxy armies unless they're visually distinct and I can tell the difference while playing. Lord Ludikrous posted:Awesome as hell Necrons This is a really cool paint scheme. At some point I'd like to have 1 xenos army. I'm on the fence between Necrons or Dark Eldar, but either I do I want them to have a white armor scheme like this. mango sentinel posted:What if they paint the rims different? This would be totally cool with me. Actually, forums user JesusisTehCool did this for his 'Nids to differentiate between squads. It was very much appreciated.
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Nov 13, 2017 23:27
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That is great art but every time I see terminators that aren't wearing a helmet I want them to be court-martialed
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Nov 13, 2017 23:27
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mango sentinel posted:What if they paint the rims different? Screams power gamer to me. That's the lowest effort thing to let them min-max their army.
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Nov 13, 2017 23:32
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bonds0097 posted:Yes, this looks awesome. That's less of a rules issue, and more of a low effort one. I'd be in favor of a factions must be distinct clause for matched play, but let's not throw out everything because lazy people are lazy.
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Nov 13, 2017 23:36
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I don't get why you'd have to pass a "you must be this invested to play" test to use an army you like the synergy of. Especially when paint pots can get expensive fast at certain army sizes, and when 99% of the color schemes possible in the setting are fabricated out of whole cloth. Don't get me wrong. I think it's a little silly having the ability to double dip on tactics like that in the first place, due to the aforementioned erasure of any trade-offs. But I think it's even sillier to say it's allowed, but only if you have more money and free time than the other player. The Bee fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Nov 13, 2017 |
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Nov 13, 2017 23:38
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"Sorry, this specific set of ultramarines devastators you're trying to shoot at are raven guard, you're at -1 to hit" "Sorry, this specific set of ultramarines devastators you're trying to melee are actually ultramarines, so they're going to fall back and shoot now" "I don't know what the problem is, I told you during deployment" Make the models distinct or don't field them. quote:and when 99% of the color schemes possible in the setting are fabricated out of whole cloth. What does this even mean? What bearing does that have on the discussion of not fielding two detachments with the same appearance and different rules?
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Nov 14, 2017 00:10
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The Bee posted:I don't get why you'd have to pass a "you must be this invested to play" test to use an army you like the synergy of. Especially when paint pots can get expensive fast at certain army sizes, and when 99% of the color schemes possible in the setting are fabricated out of whole cloth. I don't care if someone's army is painted or not when it comes to tournament play or community standards. I just don't like the mix up of "these grey dudes are Ultramarines, this group is White Scars, this group is x." it's their money, if they don't want to paint them they don't have to. It's unfair to an opponent to try to keep track of all your stuff. The same goes for an army that's all painted together the exact same without anyway to keep track of differences aside from a person saying "no, these Blood Angels are Ultramarines." It's a nightmare to keep track of during a game. It's not that hard to make them stand out at least a little. Different colored rims would be fine with me, even if the rest were all bare plastic as a bare minimum. That being said, I strongly prefer to play against fully painted armies, or armies people are at the very least putting effort into. It just looks cooler, but it's by no means a requirement for me.
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Nov 14, 2017 00:14
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I was mostly referring to the guy who said rim painting was bare minimum powergaming, or the guy who said if your marines were painted as White Scars 5 editions ago you can't change your mind and run them as Imperial Fists. If its the same identical pieces played two different ways, I fully agree its an unfair move to expect that to fly. I also fully agree painted armies look five times cooler. My bad for being unclear. Next time I'll be sure to quote. The Bee fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Nov 14, 2017 |
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Nov 14, 2017 00:37
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The Bee posted:I was mostly referring to the guy who said rim painting was bare minimum powergaming, or the guy who said if your marines were painted as White Scars 5 editions ago you can't change your mind and run them as Imperial Fists. If its the same identical pieces played two different ways, I fully agree its an unfair move to expect that to fly. I also fully agree painted armies look five times cooler. To me, just painting the rims different with everything the same seems like someone's main concern is what the most powerful combination they can put together. If they've got their whole army painted up with the different groups then they're doing more than making a FOTM list. It's mostly just a trigger that we might not be looking for the same thing in the game.
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Nov 14, 2017 00:53
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I don't mind if players have one consistent color scheme but use different Chapter Tactics or Hive Fleets, as long as there is an easy and apparent way to tell them apart. Different colored rings on the bases is fine. All that's important is that it's completely clear to your opponent what is what. All my nids are painted exactly the same. I don't currently use different colored rings, so, I plan on running them all the same. At least for now. Course it just so happens the lists I'm running have every unit benefit from the save hive fleet.
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Nov 14, 2017 01:01
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I have a hard time deciding whether to play my Nids as Behemoth (since it fits my assault-happy playstyle) or Leviathan (since it's generalized and the color scheme works with my bugs, sorta). I'll try them both out and probably make up my mind after a couple of matches. Now mixing different faction abilites in the same army using different detachments? Fuuuuck thaaat, that's a layer of complexity that I don't need in my 40k. If I can't be bothered to keep track of this poo poo, how could I expect my opponent to do it?
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Nov 14, 2017 01:02
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TBH, this seems like mostly a problem with individuals and certain groups (or tourney circuits) rather than the rules. The army selection rules in 40k are more permissive than they have ever been (disregarding 'unbound' or 'open' play, no one does that poo poo) and that's clearly an intentional design choice to allow for mixed armies, weird comboes, themed forces etc. It's just the designers see it as a way to portray your imperial crusade during its march to the war death kill planet in M38; most players take it as a way to gain the most re-rolls and special rules! This is always going to be present as a conflict and I just don't see a way around it. Even proper role-playing games have this gap between optimised rules and fluffy play. There will always be a gap and the only useful mitigation is to play with people who have similar ideas to yourself, and discuss if necessary. I do think current 40k is probably a lot easier to like if you're a narrative campaign playing group than a power gaming bunch tbh, but people who play 40k competitively have never been free of broken stuff in any edition, so no change there. I'd rather keep the rules as permissive as possible.
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Nov 14, 2017 01:05
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I'm fine with the permissive rules while also reserving the right to only play this 2-4 hour game with people who are in it for the same reason as me and who I enjoy playing against. I wouldn't advocate for forcing unified armies or armies that share 3 keywords or whatever other poo poo people have been trying to come up with. I just won't play against people whose primary motivation is powergaming. This is not a robust ruleset that holds up well to that in my opinions and not how I want to apparoach 40K.
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Nov 14, 2017 01:29
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But yeah, I've actually been thinking of a mixed detachment force myself. I haven't been using my iron hands much lately, but I've got 15 terminators sitting around, with one squad already painted IH, and was thinking of dropping them with my crimson fists. A big drop of 15 terminators and a terminator character with 6+++ somewhere, while the mostly primaris marine force has longer ranged shooting. I'll need to get the other terminators painted up first. ++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [45 PL, 836pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Iron Hands + HQ + Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 157pts]: Force sword, Storm bolter + Elites + Cataphractii Terminator Squad [12 PL, 216pts] . . Cataphractii Sergeant: Combi-bolter, Grenade harness, Power sword . . Cataphractii Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair) . . Cataphractii Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair) . . Cataphractii Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist . . Cataphractii Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist Terminator Squad [12 PL, 242pts]: Teleport Homer . . Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter . . Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter . . Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter . . Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter . . Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Power fist . . . . Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter: Cyclone missile launcher, Storm bolter Terminator Squad [12 PL, 221pts]: Teleport Homer . . Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter . . Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter . . Terminator: Chainfist, Storm bolter . . Terminator Sergeant: Power sword, Storm bolter . . Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Assault cannon, Power fist ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [59 PL, 1164pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Crimson Fists + HQ + Lieutenants [4 PL, 74pts] . . Lieutenant: Power fist, Storm bolter, The Fist of Vengeance Pedro Kantor [9 PL, 170pts] + Troops + Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 105pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle . . 4x Intercessor . . Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 105pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle . . 4x Intercessor . . Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword Tactical Squad [5 PL, 97pts] . . 3x Space Marine . . Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-flamer, Power fist . . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer + Elites + Dreadnought [7 PL, 145pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon + Heavy Support + Devastator Squad [11 PL, 196pts]: Armorium Cherub . . 2x Space Marine . . Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword . . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon . . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon . . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon . . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 170pts]: Assault Plasma Incinerator . . 4x Hellblaster . . Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol + Dedicated Transport + Razorback [5 PL, 102pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
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Nov 14, 2017 01:33
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Deified Data posted:Doing this Tyranid thing I guess. Nice! I'm so happy we have a decent codex for the first time in ... memory.
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Nov 14, 2017 01:41
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So tonight my Saim Hann Eldar hosted the new Tyranids of hive fleet Behemoth, 1000 pts. Mission was eternal war, so obviously we just went for each other's groats. Many armies will end up with the loser tabled by turn 5 in 8th edition, has been my experience so far. I took: a skyrunner autarch, 9 shining spears, 3 shuriken cannon windriders, 5 vypers, and a crimson hunter. He took: a brood lord, 18 genestealers, a trygon prime, 9 raveners, 26 devilgaunts. My opponent went first and deep struck heavily. Devilgaunt shooting is sick, I lost 6 shining spears straight off. However his charges didn't come off, even with re-rolls, which was lucky for me. We realised afterward, if he'd remembered he could have used 2cp at the end of his shooting phase and shot the whole unit again - definitely would have been a good idea. As it was a still dangerous unit of 3 spears survived (I spent 2cp to autopass morale) This let me fight back, and god drat I love the way my wild rider host plays on the table! Moving everything at least 16" with the fly keyword means the entire group just moves around in a pack, shooting is deadly accurate and even a few shining spears and an autarch are mean close up. I was able to sweep off the trygon and taunts in my first turn, while moving directly away from his other elements (raveners and genestealers+brood lord). Crimson hunter is awesome, btw. My opponent was left mostly out of position, and was unlucky to not do much damage with his only charge, the raveners only did 2 wounds to a Vyper squadron - and of course I can just fly away and keep shooting! So I finished off the raveners in my turn 2, broodlord and most of the genestealers in my turn 3 (they did manage to eat the remaining shining spears) and the final models in turn 4. Complete tabling, I lost just under 300 points (the spears) but stayed in control of the game throughout. I was quite lucky to not lose more in the first round, I think. Stratagem and better charges could have made it more of a game. However my army's movement ability together with probably poor deployment of his genestealers (too far back to apply pressure, in an effort to protect them) gave me the win. New Tyranids have some real potential though, should play them again later this week.
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Nov 14, 2017 01:58
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Deified Data posted:Doing this Tyranid thing I guess. It looks like you got the new box. If so, does it have the Prime parts for the Trygon, or just the base version?
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Nov 14, 2017 02:28
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The trygon/mawloc kit is probably the best-looking non-Forge World model that Games Workshop has put out and I wish my Tyranid friend would field some against me but he doesn't like to use any of the "snake" themed Tyranids since he's focusing on a warrior theme
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Nov 14, 2017 02:30
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Have they gotten any better? My nid bro brought a trygon prime for his first few 8th ed games but decided that he got better performance by bringing its points worth of genestealers. Maybe with charge rerolls it'd be better now. He's played a few games since the codex but still seems to mostly be running genestealers, broodlords, and a few termagants to block deep strikes. Only change I've seen is he's bringing a couple of carnifexes now. He did say he's going to buy pyrovores now though. His genestealer list is still cleaning up, he won our last tournament before the codex dropped. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Nov 14, 2017 |
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Nov 14, 2017 02:33
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