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The way I see this unfolding as that armor, shields, and excess power serve as three different ways to provide defense for a ship. Shields are good because they regenerate (unlike armor probably?) but require power and sometimes don't work. Armor I could see being in a trade-off with excess power if it either effectively "costs power" due to the weight of it or slows the ship down. So you can have more armor, or a ship that is faster and has higher evasion, etc.
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Nov 14, 2017 16:47
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GunnerJ posted:The way I see this unfolding as that armor, shields, and excess power serve as three different ways to provide defense for a ship. Shields are good because they regenerate (unlike armor probably?) but require power and sometimes don't work. Armor I could see being in a trade-off with excess power if it either effectively "costs power" due to the weight of it or slows the ship down. So you can have more armor, or a ship that is faster and has higher evasion, etc. Uh this sounds like ultimately the same experience we have now just with different stats and icons.
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Nov 14, 2017 16:51
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turn off the TV posted:Uh this sounds like ultimately the same experience we have now just with different stats and icons. Also without juggling plant components between slots. That's the important bit. Power is constant per level of plant leaving you with just the more interesting choice of methods of defense and weaponry. But the problem isn't really so much the mental effort of figuring poo poo out as much as the annoyance of the physical acts involved in dealing with plants as a component I need to measure against other components in units of slot space.
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Nov 14, 2017 16:58
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The tradeoff becomes lots of armour and lots of guns vs some guns, some shields, some armour. However, with the changes to missiles, it's possible that combat is being so radically overhauled that it's difficult to anticipate what the tradeoffs might actually be.
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Nov 14, 2017 16:58
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turn off the TV posted:I like most of these changes but I'm not really on board with the power plants. I liked the dynamic of balancing power consumption and ship space, it felt more meaningful when I could upgrade to a new tier of generator and suddenly free up a couple of utility slots for more shields or armor. If the only change is power plants being core instead of components you still do the power juggle dance - just instead of switching power draw components and powerplants until you find equilibrium you juggle armor and power draw components of different tiers until you reach equilibrium. I'm hoping there's more changing than just reactors being core - auto-upgrade components that don't have a power draw, for example, because manually upgrading armor is dumb. Personally I'd just auto-upgrade everything and instead of ships with negative power being unbuildable they just get a penalty. The opposite of the power surplus bonus but tweaked to be a little harsher to encourage reaching equilibrium. And if your reactor tech is just too awful you leave components out.
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Nov 14, 2017 16:58
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turn off the TV posted:Ships also have built in power plants. This is good. This should put more emphasis on the rock/paper/scissors nature of weapon versus defense rather than power-balance needs. If it adds anything new and interesting to combat and ship design dynamics then I'm all for it.
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Nov 14, 2017 16:59
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Hmm. If we are getting Morale in some form, then the distinction between armour and hull points becomes important. If you lose morale from HP damage but not AP damage, then the choice between 'Internal Bulkheads' buffing the former and 'Heavy Plating' buffing the latter becomes interesting, especially if you can get a higher HP buff than AP. I imagine that's what the Crystal Plating icon is meant to represent. Of course, this means races without morale can focus on HP and shields, whereas other races will have more armour. This is all speculation, but possibilities are exciting.
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Nov 14, 2017 17:11
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Soup du Jour posted:https://twitter.com/martin_anward/status/930452658900611074 So they changed the combat computers to be small chip spiders. That makes sense for the Picket Ships as they should be constantly freaked out and having spiders inside them will do that.
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Nov 14, 2017 17:11
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GunnerJ posted:It's possible that the whole "Torpedo" category might be changing so that all or maybe most missiles have a dedicated slot (Which might be renamed "Missiles" or something). This is good imo because it means that the weirdness of how missiles operate compared to other weapon types is encapsulated by it having a distinct slot-bound role, rather than needing to be balanced as an orange with two kinds of apple.  Wonder how this will be handle empire starting weapons if you can't fill regular slots with torpedoes. Ditching the entire concept? Choice is energy or kinetic with missiles as a gimme? You get all three but you start with one at tier 2?
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Nov 14, 2017 17:14
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Magil Zeal posted:This is good. This should put more emphasis on the rock/paper/scissors nature of weapon versus defense rather than power-balance needs. If it adds anything new and interesting to combat and ship design dynamics then I'm all for it. The way I saw it the power plants allow more fine tuning of what role your ship will have in combat, which in the vanilla game was useless, but with the ship AI mod was very useful. If I wanted to make a brawling battleship with lots of shields and armor and one designed to stay at the back of my fleet and fire artillery without being hit I would give both of them very different combinations of guns, armor shields and power plants. While loving around with all of the components could certainly be tedious, it never bothered me much because the end result could have a significant impact on my fleet's performance. I'm just not sure I get what looks like a decision to reduce one aspect of ship customization while adding the ability to give your ships new combat behavior roles. E: if each ship section could have its own power plant, rather than the whole vessel, that would go a decent way to bridging the gap between the two systems while also getting rid of a large amount of tedium, so I'm hoping that's how the new system works. turn off the TV fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Nov 14, 2017 |
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Nov 14, 2017 17:15
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It's a Christmas miracle: https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/930466051288125442
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Nov 14, 2017 17:24
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GunnerJ posted:It's a Christmas miracle: I would prefer to sacrifice shields and armor for more power. As a result I'm still unhappy with this system and Paradox can expect to receive notice of my charge back and lawsuit within the new few hours.
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Nov 14, 2017 17:28
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GunnerJ posted:It's a Christmas miracle: So the effect is basically to cut down on # of slots that were defacto "guaranteed" to be power?
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Nov 14, 2017 17:43
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turn off the TV posted:I would prefer to sacrifice shields and armor for more power. As a result I'm still unhappy with this system and Paradox can expect to receive notice of my charge back and lawsuit within the new few hours. Wait, are you unhappy with all of these changes?
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Nov 14, 2017 17:48
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:Wait, are you unhappy with all of these changes? At first glance I have to admit I'm pretty confused as to how it's an overall improvement but all we've seen are two screenshots of a corvette. As long as I can still skew my ships towards offensive or defensive capabilities I'll be happy.
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Nov 14, 2017 18:08
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kaffo posted:Oh, so it's not just an anomaly? I'll need to try that! Yes, it only fires for the player, and only as a non-gestalt empire. kujeger posted:I thought they patched that so it only has a change to trigger once per black hole? From reading akx.9000 and the on_entering_system_fleet on_action trigger, there is nothing about it once per system. There is a 1% chance that it will fire when entering a black hole system, but there is nothing about it only rolling the dice a single time per system.
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Nov 14, 2017 18:29
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This is a good change, as much as I love deep, crunchy ship design mechanics, having to pause and do the power reactor dance every few months was tedious in sp and outright stressful in mp, where no pause exists.
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Nov 14, 2017 18:33
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Soup du Jour posted:https://twitter.com/martin_anward/status/930452658900611074 Getting the extremely obvious out of the way it looks like you can now set ship behaviors. 
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Nov 14, 2017 18:36
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With no science ship customization, I assume the curator science modules will be empire-wide buffs now?
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Nov 14, 2017 18:37
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GunnerJ posted:Power plant upgrading and slot juggling was an endless source of tedious horseshit and I am glad if it's going away.  GunnerJ posted:I just noticed something called "Special Values" in the stats bar. What does it mean!? I'm reasonably certain that's actually in the ship designer today. It used to be used for the battleship aura effects I think?
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Nov 14, 2017 18:58
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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turn off the TV posted:At first glance I have to admit I'm pretty confused as to how it's an overall improvement but all we've seen are two screenshots of a corvette. As long as I can still skew my ships towards offensive or defensive capabilities I'll be happy.
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Nov 14, 2017 19:13
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Baronjutter posted:Man there's some good comments about how the game is being "dumbed down" and how wiz is ripping off modders by having combat behaviors and hull based power... It's almost as if Wiz was once a modder himself and can have good ideas, especially with a team of other developers...
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Nov 14, 2017 19:20
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binge crotching posted:With no science ship customization, I assume the curator science modules will be empire-wide buffs now?  There's no transport ships in there either oh my god yes
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Nov 14, 2017 19:21
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The big question is whether we're getting combat changes or a much wider array of available options. As long as ship design amounts to "slightly tweak a few numbers before casting your ships into the inscrutable black box of the combat system", it doesn't much matter to me exactly which slots can carry what. Getting ship behaviors back is a big plus, but ship design needs to boil down to more than just putting on whatever weapons fit your flavor choices, tech options, or enemy fleet design, then slapping on as many shields as your ship can power and filling the rest with armor.
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Nov 14, 2017 19:27
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turn off the TV posted:but with the ship AI mod was very useful. What mod is this?
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Nov 14, 2017 19:54
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I'm super hyped for having sniper fleets from basically year 0. Wiz, if you're reading this, make a computer that makes ships stay at max range if they can help it (i.e. are faster than the enemy) so I can kite slow idiots. Thanks in advance.
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Nov 14, 2017 19:58
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GunnerJ posted:It's a Christmas miracle: It's not even Thanksgiving yet goddamn it stop with the Christmas stuff  In general, this looks good, although I'm concerned about the missile-in-the-torpedo slot. Unless.... torpedoes are no longer a discreet tech and are now just another size-class of whatever missile tech you have, which would be neato.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:02
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Splicer posted:I had half a huge post done up about how SotS did it like this and It Was Good the other day, and how it would require a shake up of starting tech on par with the FTL rework so maybe it was on the cards. I could have looked so prescient SotS totally didn't do it like that though? In SotS missiles were regular weapons that compete with all other weapons for the same slots. The only thing that makes them special is they don't have a small mount option - they start at medium. But they don't have a special slot just for them. I'd be totally okay with Stellaris ditching missiles as a starting choice and giving them to everyone or noone by default instead - but I don't think their forums can handle another "wiz is taking my (bad) options away from me" outcry. GunnerJ posted:It's a Christmas miracle: This on the other hand is SotS 2 as gently caress. Managing your optional module slots and getting the power balance right was one of the really cool things about SotS 2 ship design. Of course they had two things to juggle - endurance and power, and those usually were in direct opposition, but baby steps.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:11
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Splicer posted:
Whoa! 
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Nov 14, 2017 20:17
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GunnerJ posted:Whoa! Civilian ships auto upgrade, but they still exist.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:21
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Yeah, since transports actually cost nothing there was never any reason to not have them use the latest stuff. This way we don't have to bother manually redesigning them with every research unlock.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:36
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I'd end up never upgrading my science ships because the same 3-4 ships I built at the start of the game got set on auto-explore and forgotten. They don't have time to shlep all the way back to upgrade to get some minor +5% anomaly bonus. That poo poo auto-upgrading would be great.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:43
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Splicer posted:Subbing missiles into their own slots means they don't have to be tightly balanced with energy/kinetic anymore, meaning more design space. It also means they're a chassis decision rather than a weapon decision. Things like this contribute to different sections feeling like more distinct options. Also, making a number of distinct sequential but interlinked decisions can be more player friendly and satisfying than the same decisions all in one blob. I want some missiles so I'm taking a missile section -> ok this has two non-missile slots what will I put in them vs I have three weapon slots what will I put in them. As it was ships were too restricted to be properly sandboxy and too sandboxy to have your individual decisions feel meaningful. My issue is that prior to this update armor could be used largely as a filler stat because it cost no power, which in a way balanced it against the fact that more armor meant less power generation. There was a neat balance between power, shields, armor and weapons and striking the right balance for the ship type you want, but now that power doesn't fill the same hull slots as armor you aren't really going to be able to make glass cannon type ships the same way unless there has been a lot of rebalancing done to all components. Sandwich Anarchist posted:What mod is this? http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=790455347&searchtext=ship+ai
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Nov 14, 2017 20:43
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Not upgrading them (transports) is also a good way to lose a bunch when they fall too far behind the ships they are following around and get caught by whatever the AI is trying to chase you with. In a follow up tweet Wiz also showed a new component that boosts reactor output. That was my main concern since you could no longer add/remove components to balance everything out so designed would be limited by what a single reactor can do. You lose out on an aux slot but you probably weren't using it anyway. It looks like a few components also switched to normal slots instead of aux slots (or was crystalline plating always a normal slot? I can't remember)
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Nov 14, 2017 20:43
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WilliamAnderson posted:It's almost as if Wiz was once a modder himself and can have good ideas, especially with a team of other developers... 'aliens' are my origional idea. do not steel!!
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Nov 14, 2017 20:47
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The power generators as a side component are almost exactly what New Horizons does, and I like their ship creation a lot.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:50
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Xae posted:+Energy is better until you're at the dyson sphere stage. That sounds awful to maintain. Doubly if machine empire. A Sphere next to my capital sounds way easier to defend, too.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:53
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How bad is it to close borders to a militaristic civ? I'm close to the galactic center and I have a xenophile fallen empire nearby on the other side, with the target civ just below. I want to reach out to the west to close the gap with the fallen empire, and to the east to seal off the space between my civ and the core/ With closed borders I'm hoping to keep that target civ from sneaking past and building north of me, hemming me in like the last game. I expect the xenophiles will let them pass, but it's a far enough detour that maybe they'll expand southward instead.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:56
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Relations with other empires are largely relative. If you're also militaristic, you might be best buddies and conqueror the galaxy together. If you're pacifists, they'll hate you.
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Nov 14, 2017 21:03
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I'm from Buenos Aires, and I say kill 'em all!
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Nov 14, 2017 21:08
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