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Ventana posted:Sonic 06 had it's team split in half Actually it had its team split in half TWICE  IIRC first time was when Yuji Naka left, second time was to form a team to make Sonic and the Secret Rings
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Nov 14, 2017 21:48
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No matter how you slice it, it IS pretty weird that Forces reuses assets from a six year old game on top of Lost World. Does anyone know if Generations’ Colors and Unleashed stages reuse assets from those games or if they were made from scratch, because if it’s the latter, that’s means they remade stuff from games less that were only three years old and whose development overlapped WITH Generations.
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Nov 14, 2017 21:51
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The Skeleton King posted:It seems to me that they were experimenting with level lengths and asset usage. The levels in generations required literal MILES of assets. Just one stage could use as much space as all of skyrim for a stage that is 3-4 minutes on average. It was even more absurd in Unleashed where the day stages were 4-6 minutes or more. Any sources on this? I remember there was an old interview quote about building the hedgehog engine and it quoted how long a Sonic Unleashed stage was (my memory is 12km but might be pulling out of my arse), and I'm coming up short finding it
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Nov 14, 2017 22:06
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I remember that. The director talked about the reason why Sega experiments so much with alternate gameplay styles is because full Sonic levels are extremely big and graphics intensive for things that go by so quickly.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:13
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TFRazorsaw posted:I remember that. The director talked about the reason why Sega experiments so much with alternate gameplay styles is because full Sonic levels are extremely big and graphics intensive for things that go by so quickly. Not that I don't like boost gameplay, but couldn't they just...go back to Adventure-style levels and speeds? Wouldn't that let them make smaller levels that still take a decent amount of time to beat?
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Nov 14, 2017 22:18
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TFRazorsaw posted:No matter how you slice it, it IS pretty weird that Forces reuses assets from a six year old game on top of Lost World. Does anyone know if Generations’ Colors and Unleashed stages reuse assets from those games or if they were made from scratch, because if it’s the latter, that’s means they remade stuff from games less that were only three years old and whose development overlapped WITH Generations. Colors stuff is definitely reused, so much so that the environment map is made up of screenshots from Colors devtools, complete with a tiny t-pose sonic in the middle
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Nov 14, 2017 22:19
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I mean, those are still pretty large. The way he said it doesn't sound like it was something exclusive to just Unleashed.corn in the bible posted:Colors stuff is definitely reused, so much so that the environment map is made up of screenshots from Colors devtools, complete with a tiny t-pose sonic in the middle That makes sense. I'm wondering how much of Colors and Generations' development overlapped, considering they share stuff like badnik designs... at least, if I remember right? Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Nov 14, 2017 |
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Nov 14, 2017 22:21
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I wouldn't care if the backgrounds were much more generic and repeating if it meant longer stages. Priorities.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:21
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Xad posted:Not that I don't like boost gameplay, but couldn't they just...go back to Adventure-style levels and speeds? Wouldn't that let them make smaller levels that still take a decent amount of time to beat? They've tried that a couple times but it turns out nobody liked Lost World or Boom
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Nov 14, 2017 22:21
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I like Lost World.  Anyways for what its worth at least the thing they spent the bulk of their time on (Hedgehog 2 Engine) came out incredibly well. Despite some hitches with slippery controls and other game complaints the stages look absolutely gorgeous and generally perform super tight from that perspective. I definitely look forward to seeing what another game built on it will look like.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:33
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corn in the bible posted:They've tried that a couple times but it turns out nobody liked Lost World or Boom Neither of those were what I was talking about and you know it. Lost World was essentially "Mario Galaxy but with Sonic" and was pretty much boost-lite with how the spindash worked. Boom was made by a 3rd party and was basically an early 2000s Jak and Daxter-style game, except very very bad and boring.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:36
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Does anyone know why some of the Egg Pawn-esque enemies in Forces are randomly extremely shiny? They seem to be most common in Classic Sonic's levels but I don't know what their deal is.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:38
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TFRazorsaw posted:Does anyone know why some of the Egg Pawn-esque enemies in Forces are randomly extremely shiny? They seem to be most common in Classic Sonic's levels but I don't know what their deal is. Different gun, they have rapid fire.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:41
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The underlying design issues with Adventure-style levels were pretty fundamental- there's not a good fix for them, which is why they haven't really returned as is. Creating axial movement, or some equivalent restriction, is pretty much the only known way to deal with a player character that's meant to move fast.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:41
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Different gun, they have rapid fire. Ohhhh. That explains it.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:43
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Xad posted:Actually it had its team split in half TWICE Well, it is true that there were apparently separate splits, but I never heard of Naka leaving indicating it was split in half that time? Prope was started with 10 other guys from Sonic Team so idk if I believe that Sonic 2006 only had ~10 people working on it for about a year (even if it would hilariously explain it's shortcomings). Other minor thing, but I thought it was Secret rings that was split first based on this old rumor months before Prope was founded. My personal theory was always that the team was split first between 06 and Secret Rings, which was a dumb enough idea that made Yuji Naka quit, though there's no real proof for it. Skeletome posted:Any sources on this? I remember there was an old interview quote about building the hedgehog engine and it quoted how long a Sonic Unleashed stage was (my memory is 12km but might be pulling out of my arse), and I'm coming up short finding it TFRazorsaw posted:I remember that. The director talked about the reason why Sega experiments so much with alternate gameplay styles is because full Sonic levels are extremely big and graphics intensive for things that go by so quickly. See, for the former thing, you can find it in these two interviews. 6-20km, or 3-12 miles I vaguely remember the latter being a thing too, but I've never been able to find where that came from. That and some vague confirmation that the werehog was created because they needed to pad out game time. But the closest I could get was the end of that second interview, which confirms that long modern sonic levels are a challenge, but not any causal link to those previous ideas.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:43
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MikeJF posted:I wouldn't care if the backgrounds were much more generic and repeating if it meant longer stages. Priorities. To be fair, when I first launched into space in stage 4 I was impressed with how it looked. There is a certain amount of WOW factor that they can pull off from time to time. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Nov 14, 2017 |
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Nov 14, 2017 22:44
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Discendo Vox posted:The underlying design issues with Adventure-style levels were pretty fundamental- there's not a good fix for them, which is why they haven't really returned as is. Creating axial movement, or some equivalent restriction, is pretty much the only known way to deal with a player character that's meant to move fast. Hmm, yeah good point. Most of the cool stuff in Radical Highway/Speed Highway was scripted loops and boosters. Though there was that one time you run on the side of a building (not the Goin' Down section) that was pretty cool. But point taken. Okay new proposal: Sonic Unleashed-style day stages for Sonic, and stages where you play as Knuckles and beat everything up/solve puzzles like Werehog stages Except Good. I will keep saying this until Sega does it 
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Nov 14, 2017 22:45
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Hashimoto loves Chao at least. That makes him a good egg. EDIT - You know, looking back, I think the big mistake with the werehog, besides the obvious of it being another gameplay style, is that he starts out too weak. If they upped his movement style and made it take less time/be less grindy to make him powerful, it would have been a much more pleasant experience, at least for the people who liked him. Convincing people who didn't are already a lost cause. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Nov 14, 2017 |
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Nov 14, 2017 22:45
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YoshiOfYellow posted:I like Lost World. I like Lost World too. If the controls were more intuitive and if the level design didn’t just poo poo itself in the later half of the game, I’d consider it the best 3D Sonic. Speeding through stuff once you got the controls down felt great.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:47
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General opinion on Unleashed is usually mixed, but if anything is clear from his interviews, is that Hashimoto loves Sonic and seriously put in a lot of heart into Unleashed. It's a kind of sincerity and genuine passion into all the work he did that you don't really feel when you look up the development for the Sonic games that followed (except maybe Generations, but I think that was kinda different). Not to mention him dealing with the pressure of making the game that would follow-up Sonic 06, which must've been hell.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:52
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TFRazorsaw posted:Hashimoto loves Chao at least. That makes him a good egg.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:59
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I don't like making assumptions about the level of passion creators allegedly don't or don't have. It just gets into his really thorny area where people use it to say things about creators that don't really have much corroboration beyond what people interpret. I mean, I'm not doubting that Hashimoto isn't extremely enthusiastic, but it's more when people talk about other teams or figures involved with Sonic that may or may not have been as vocal or vocal in the same ways as he was. I see it a lot about Kishimoto and Iizuka in particular, and it just doesn't sit well with me. Iizuka especially, since he's basically spent his whole career associated with this character, and how I've observed him at live events. People really want him to be a man that sees Sonic as "just a job" at best, and like that one parody account in real life at worst.
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Nov 14, 2017 23:00
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The solution for many of the problems folks feel with the current sonic "formula" is to create spinoff titles using other sonic characters that are designed wholly around their behaviors. They could be smaller-scale, budget titles even, but they'd address the "add-a-character" issue, and more importantly, remove a lot of the design weight that the sonic games are now put under in simultaneously catering to fans of so many different "eras".
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Nov 14, 2017 23:04
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TFRazorsaw posted:Hashimoto loves Chao at least. That makes him a good egg. Yeah this was my issue with it too--once I had maxed out the combat stat that gives you more moves I thought playing as the werehog was kinda fun, but that didn't happen until almost the end of the game. Discendo Vox posted:The solution for many of the problems folks feel with the current sonic "formula" is to create spinoff titles using other sonic characters that are designed wholly around their behaviors. They could be smaller-scale, budget titles even, but they'd address the "add-a-character" issue, and more importantly, remove a lot of the design weight that the sonic games are now put under in simultaneously catering to fans of so many different "eras". Now that you mention it they kinda used to do this. We'd regularly get spinoff games in the "off" years like Sonic Riders and Sonic Battle and even Shadow the Hedgehog kinda. Speaking of, if they somehow got Platinum to make a new Shadow game that was half Vanquish and half Metal Gear Rising/Bayonetta, I can't imagine it NOT being extremely good? It's been suggested enough times itt recently that I keep thinking how ridiculous it would be. Xad fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Nov 14, 2017 |
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Nov 14, 2017 23:05
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I still want my 2D Knuckles Metroidvania game, but platinum does Shadow the Hedgehog 2 is also acceptable.
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Nov 14, 2017 23:19
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I think Shadow's game likely scared them off from doing spin off character titles ever again.
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Nov 14, 2017 23:21
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TFRazorsaw posted:I think Shadow's game likely scared them off from doing spin off character titles ever again. shadow is better than the loving kinect sonic riders
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Nov 14, 2017 23:24
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Discendo Vox posted:The underlying design issues with Adventure-style levels were pretty fundamental- there's not a good fix for them, which is why they haven't really returned as is. Creating axial movement, or some equivalent restriction, is pretty much the only known way to deal with a player character that's meant to move fast. what are these fundamental problems and what do you mean by "creating axial movement" Discendo Vox posted:The solution for many of the problems folks feel with the current sonic "formula" is to create spinoff titles using other sonic characters that are designed wholly around their behaviors. They could be smaller-scale, budget titles even, but they'd address the "add-a-character" issue, and more importantly, remove a lot of the design weight that the sonic games are now put under in simultaneously catering to fans of so many different "eras". this won't fix the problems with the boost gameplay
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Nov 14, 2017 23:25
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corn in the bible posted:shadow is better than the loving kinect sonic riders yeah but notice that game's title is "Sonic Free Riders" and not "Babylon Riders"
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Nov 14, 2017 23:25
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I want nothing more than a mobile Chao garden game that pulls from a Sega account you link to all your Sega games. imagine getting Chao items from Yakuza 
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Nov 14, 2017 23:29
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Better yet, Sega All-Stars Chao. You can raise a Chao with any Sega character and raise a Chao based on their characteristics. Yakuza Chao, Puyo Puyo Chao, Shenmu Chao...
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Nov 14, 2017 23:31
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Discendo Vox posted:The solution for many of the problems folks feel with the current sonic "formula" is to create spinoff titles using other sonic characters that are designed wholly around their behaviors. They could be smaller-scale, budget titles even, but they'd address the "add-a-character" issue, and more importantly, remove a lot of the design weight that the sonic games are now put under in simultaneously catering to fans of so many different "eras". It would be cool if they can create spinoffs, but is Sega doing well financially to allocate some budget to develop some of them? Ideas for games starring other characters: Knuckles - 2D Metroidvania to hunt down gemeralds or clues about his past. Chaotix - Yakuza-style game where they solve problems for others and get paid. Amy/Cream/Blaze - A Streets of Rage-esque game where they kick rear end. Shadow - Action game developed by Platinum, story written by  Eggman - Minigame bonanza in the style of Wario or Misadventures of Tron Bonne. Eggman tries to get funding for the next time he tries conquering the world.
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Nov 14, 2017 23:31
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amigolupus posted:Eggman - Minigame bonanza in the style of Wario or Misadventures of Tron Bonne. Eggman tries to get funding for the next time he tries conquering the world. I've always liked the idea that Eggman gets his funding from the totally benevolent and unrelated Robotnik Co., developers of Extreme Gear and other totally non-world domination related technologies. Also there's Battle which says he sells some of his robots to make cash alternate idea: Eggmanland Theme Park Builder EDIT - Man, I forgot how weird Riders was. Even the Rogues have their own Gear company. Can you imagine Storm trying to sell something?
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Nov 14, 2017 23:35
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Filthy Haiku posted:I want nothing more than a mobile Chao garden game that pulls from a Sega account you link to all your Sega games. imagine getting Chao items from Yakuza If this were a couple years ago I'd agree, but at this point I'd expect such a thing to be delivered as a F2P microtransaction-riddled beast and I'm not sure my heart could take it. 
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Nov 14, 2017 23:44
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Augus posted:what are these fundamental problems and what do you mean by "creating axial movement" Augus posted:this won't fix the problems with the boost gameplay There's an audience which doesn't have a problem with, and actively enjoys, boost gameplay- just like there's one for Adventures, and one for classic side scrolling, etc. The problem is having to cater to these conflicting ideas of "good sonic game".
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Nov 14, 2017 23:50
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:If this were a couple years ago I'd agree, but at this point I'd expect such a thing to be delivered as a F2P microtransaction-riddled beast and I'm not sure my heart could take it. Oh my god ive always said mobile chao game was a no brainer but i never even considered this and now im completely heartbroken
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Nov 14, 2017 23:55
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Filthy Haiku posted:I want nothing more than a mobile Chao garden game that pulls from a Sega account you link to all your Sega games. imagine getting Chao items from Yakuza They can even hook it retroactively by allowing you to link it to Steam/PSN/XBox/Apple/Google Play Games accounts and you'll get items from achievement unlocks in existing games.
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Nov 14, 2017 23:58
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:If this were a couple years ago I'd agree, but at this point I'd expect such a thing to be delivered as a F2P microtransaction-riddled beast and I'm not sure my heart could take it. You can try to buy things with normal Rings that your Chao finds but if you want to raise them right you going to need to buy some Red Rings 5 for $1 10+1 free $3.99 20+5 free $7.99 100 + 25 free & rare egg 39.99
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Nov 14, 2017 23:59
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You could combine the Adventure and boost styles of gameplay; the boost games already have occasional moments where you slow down, but they're hamstrung by keeping the same controls and physics, so Sonic doesn't move in a way that feels right for precision platforming, and both platforming and combat devolve into simple homing attack chains. They need to expand on the experience in the slower sections, changing how Sonic moves at low speed, adding extra moves and abilities to give the player more options, but chain those moments together with high speed racing. Speed Highway (the original) did this pretty well, although without boost gameplay, but maybe we don't need a dedicated boost function to have something that gives the same thrill.
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Nov 15, 2017 00:01
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