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Yeah the problem is the stability and range of their tributaries combined with the amount of money and tech they have. It's hell wars to get them down. Like I want to do the Hormuz achievement and one of the best tactics I've seen is become a tributary early on.
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Nov 14, 2017 20:21
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Tahirovic posted:Yeah the problem is the stability and range of their tributaries combined with the amount of money and tech they have. It's hell wars to get them down. Like I want to do the Hormuz achievement and one of the best tactics I've seen is become a tributary early on.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:22
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One change in CoC which I have barely seen mentioned but is quite significant if you're actually playing in the Middle East is that the terrain in the newly revamped map areas is much more granular. By which I mean, for example, no longer is every single province in a gigantic belt of provinces between the Black Sea and central Iran mountains; there's highlands, drylands and even some grasslands in there, so fort placement is significantly more meaningful, and you have better provinces for development. Also mountains are only 35% development penalty now which is pretty nice if you're Inca or anyone else with a bunch of mountainous gold provinces.
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Nov 14, 2017 22:47
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Non East Asian religions shouldn't ever willingly become a tributary. That would be enough to keep the Dharmic and Muslim states nearby from joining the Mingsphere.
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Nov 14, 2017 23:09
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Mantis42 posted:Non East Asian religions shouldn't ever willingly become a tributary. That would be enough to keep the Dharmic and Muslim states nearby from joining the Mingsphere. This seems like a fairly quick solution which would restrict their "freebie" sphere of influence to Tibet, Korea, Japan and mainland SEA, which sounds just about perfect. And it also puts a nice clear dividing line between the states which are part of the natural sphere of China (and thus, can take the Mandate for themselves) and others who might want to expand there, but can't take the Mandate. What gets loving annoying is when you don't want anything to do with China but they have random tributaries in India for some reason and you have absolutely no benefit to gain from taking China on directly so you just kind of sigh and pretend that OPM doesn't exist any more.
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Nov 14, 2017 23:28
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RabidWeasel posted:
Yea this made me quit a Garhwal run where I was en route to unify India, but there was this tiny little Ming tributary with no other allies. So I figure, what the hell, I'm stronger than Ming, I'll just stackwipe their armies until I can peace out for the land. Now, I play on Very Hard so I'm fine with the AI getting bonuses (and Ming should be powerful, sure), but holy loving poo poo. Ming ran out of manpower within a year and then recruited 100 000 mercenaries (yes literally 100 loving merc stacks) and kept sending them to die. To defend this Indian minor Ming lost more than half a million soldiers, which is the point where I quit the run. I could've invaded Ming, siege them down and taken their stuff, but my goal was just to unify India, and get the fort achievement. Maybe my problem is more with mercenaries and all out war for allies in war, but I think everyone knows something needs to be done tbh.
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Nov 15, 2017 00:04
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In my Korea game a massive blobbing Bengal covering almost a third of India got tributary CB declared on and all of their allies came charging in to defend them from Ming. Instant KO. A few ten thousands dying of attrition in the jungles? Who cares? Half of them are magically conjured mercenaries from the void and the rest are reinforcements being instantly teleported across the Himalayas because that's not a difficult supply route in any way. I am untouchable. No one can declare war on me. It's like I've activated a cheat to prevent the AI from doing anything beyond defending itself.
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Nov 15, 2017 00:16
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In general they need to do something to limit a country's global power projection. Countries in that time period should have trouble just moving their armies around in their own territory, but you regularly see countries in game marching enormous armies across entire continents while suffering only minor attrition. That feeds into the Ming problem - not only can they make tributaries over a ridiculous distance, but they also are able and willing to defend them with overwhelming force. Unfortunately I think that's something that's going to have to wait for EU5.
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Nov 15, 2017 00:40
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Speaking of Ming, I just managed to cause a mingsplosion. The question is: would now be a good time to become Qing? Having a ton of permanent claims and ditching the bad parts of being a horde would be nice, but I also don't want to ditch the good parts of being a horde.
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Nov 15, 2017 00:47
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born in the steppe die in the saddle hordein' and swordin' is all that i uh crave
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Nov 15, 2017 00:54
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Fister Roboto posted:In general they need to do something to limit a country's global power projection. Countries in that time period should have trouble just moving their armies around in their own territory, but you regularly see countries in game marching enormous armies across entire continents while suffering only minor attrition. That feeds into the Ming problem - not only can they make tributaries over a ridiculous distance, but they also are able and willing to defend them with overwhelming force. Unfortunately I think that's something that's going to have to wait for EU5. Yeah, the AI desperately needs some sort of internal 'what is this worth to me' meter to determine how much they're willing to commit. I think the whole war/peace mechanic could use a big overhaul. A system where you have to declare your exact goals ahead of time and can't just 'wing it' because you're crushing them would be a good start for smarter/better peace AI.
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Nov 15, 2017 00:56
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Still think Ming should just get no mercenaries period.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:03
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Fister Roboto posted:Speaking of Ming, I just managed to cause a mingsplosion. Imo stay Manchu until you start running out of good options to farm Horde Unity. You want most/all of your neighbors as tributaries eventually so you don't tank your Mandate when you become Qing.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:11
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Wow, I thought Mingsplosions were a thing of the past, even with the Undefended Frontier disaster.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:25
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Node posted:Wow, I thought Mingsplosions were a thing of the past, even with the Undefended Frontier disaster. It's still possible, but you definitely have to be more proactive about it. I stopped being a tributary as soon as I had 300 development and they passed their first reform, and then waited for them to get the disaster. Unfortunately they declared war on me before that, but then the disaster fired during the war so I was able to turn it into a win and take Beijing. That tanked their mandate, but it still wasn't enough. So once the truce was over I declared war on them, steamrolled their armies, and took their capitol and a bunch of forts. Then, when they had max war exhaustion and rebels were starting to pop, I signed a white peace. They exploded a few years later.
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Nov 15, 2017 01:35
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Anyone know of a Cradle of Civilizations DLC and patch feature overview that rests somewhere between the short Paradox video and a full on early access let's play?
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Nov 15, 2017 02:30
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Fister Roboto posted:Speaking of Ming, I just managed to cause a mingsplosion. No. Conquering a bunch of Chinese minors together with trying to manage a bunch of them as tributaries is annoying. I deliberately caused Mingsplosion on my first post-MoH Qing run and rapidly regretted my decision. Also, honestly, Manchu is a lot stronger than Qing in most ways.
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Nov 15, 2017 03:10
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Forming Qing isn't the same as taking the Mandate, right? So why would you need to juggle tributaries?
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Nov 15, 2017 05:41
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it's insanely stupid that forming qing lifts the HORDE ON OUR DOORSTEP disaster for ming since qing isn't a horde
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Nov 15, 2017 05:51
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nessin posted:Anyone know of a Cradle of Civilizations DLC and patch feature overview that rests somewhere between the short Paradox video and a full on early access let's play? The official patch notes?
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Nov 15, 2017 06:06
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Mantis42 posted:Forming Qing isn't the same as taking the Mandate, right? So why would you need to juggle tributaries? Yeah that's correct. Taking the mandate does give you the Unify China CB, which is only 50% AE, but I really don't think it's worth it. I think I'll stay as Manchu. Forming Qing does give me permanent claims, and 25% less coring cost on all of China is pretty huge, but being able to raze provinces and use the horde CB (75% AE) means I can conquer China faster.
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Nov 15, 2017 06:35
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I will probably never play Ming because after my run where it became the junior member in a PU with me, Japan, in 1470, I know I will never come close to having that much fun with China again
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Nov 15, 2017 07:14
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Autism Sneaks posted:I will probably never play Ming because after my run where it became the junior member in a PU with me, Japan, in 1470, I know I will never come close to having that much fun with China again How did you keep their liberty desire below a million percent?
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Nov 15, 2017 07:23
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They should just make it so tributaries don't get to auto call Ming into war. The fact that the tributary doesn't have to worry about the biggest power in the world coming to mess their poo poo up is already a pretty nice deal.
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Nov 15, 2017 07:48
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i mean it's a protection racket, right? nice country, shame if something were to happen to it
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Nov 15, 2017 07:58
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Gobblecoque posted:They should just make it so tributaries don't get to auto call Ming into war. The fact that the tributary doesn't have to worry about the biggest power in the world coming to mess their poo poo up is already a pretty nice deal. Yeah this is the staggeringly obvious change that should have been done ages ago.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:01
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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L0VE posted:Yea this made me quit a Garhwal run where I was en route to unify India, but there was this tiny little Ming tributary with no other allies. So I figure, what the hell, I'm stronger than Ming, I'll just stackwipe their armies until I can peace out for the land. Now, I play on Very Hard so I'm fine with the AI getting bonuses (and Ming should be powerful, sure), but holy loving poo poo. Ming ran out of manpower within a year and then recruited 100 000 mercenaries (yes literally 100 loving merc stacks) and kept sending them to die. To defend this Indian minor Ming lost more than half a million soldiers, which is the point where I quit the run. I could've invaded Ming, siege them down and taken their stuff, but my goal was just to unify India, and get the fort achievement. This is something the AI does in EU4 in general. Fortunately, they just spam infantry mercs and run around with large infantry-only armies. Not particularly hard to deal with, just annoying.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:26
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It would help if they made the AI smart enough to not throw 10,000 ducats of mercs away (not counting maintenance) in order to protect a single tiny tributary. Like, it would seriously help a lot when fighting against tributaries if the AI actually treated them like they should—only rarely worth fighting over.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:31
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Finally decided to finish my great horde game (1.21), are there anything in the next two dlc's worth getting? The Russia one seemed pretty bad. Ming makes this pretty easy, just tedious. Really dislike the Asia changes from 1.20 Alst fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Nov 15, 2017 |
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Nov 15, 2017 08:38
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Eldred posted:How did you keep their liberty desire below a million percent? Very carefully Serious answer: this was before the liberty desire calculation rework that would have made such a union untenable, I want to say in 1.19 "Denmark"
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Nov 15, 2017 08:55
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:It would help if they made the AI smart enough to not throw 10,000 ducats of mercs away (not counting maintenance) in order to protect a single tiny tributary. Like, it would seriously help a lot when fighting against tributaries if the AI actually treated them like they should—only rarely worth fighting over. Yeah, I personally would like it to be something like a mandatory Condottiere. That way the amount of force that they can send is limited, and is a small increase for a powerful nation, but a very welcome power boost for a small nation. It would make large nations more likely to break the tributary status, and would make conquering smaller tributaries something that can happen without Ming sending endless waves of men.
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Nov 15, 2017 09:19
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Autism Sneaks posted:I will probably never play Ming because after my run where it became the junior member in a PU with me, Japan, in 1470, I know I will never come close to having that much fun with China again how did you get a pu as non christians
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Nov 15, 2017 11:57
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Dirk the Average posted:Yeah, I personally would like it to be something like a mandatory Condottiere. That way the amount of force that they can send is limited, and is a small increase for a powerful nation, but a very welcome power boost for a small nation. It would make large nations more likely to break the tributary status, and would make conquering smaller tributaries something that can happen without Ming sending endless waves of men. This seems like a great idea if they could get it to work. Allies in general could probably do with only being called in this way for CB's like Diplomatic Insult, Trade War/Conflict and Humiliate Rival, where occupying 80% of 3+ nations provinces isn't really reasonable in relation to your demands.
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Nov 15, 2017 13:51
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oddium posted:how did you get a pu as non christians You used to be able to do it as anyone. It must have been in an old patch, as mentioned, pre-liberty desire too. IIRC in EU3 1.0 unions and inheritances were like.... totally random and way more common, and like... Savoy would just up and fully inherit France and poo poo.
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Nov 15, 2017 14:31
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oh i didn't start playing until right before rights of man. old game sounds bad mostly condolences
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Nov 15, 2017 14:35
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L0VE posted:Yea this made me quit a Garhwal run where I was en route to unify India, but there was this tiny little Ming tributary with no other allies. So I figure, what the hell, I'm stronger than Ming, I'll just stackwipe their armies until I can peace out for the land. Now, I play on Very Hard so I'm fine with the AI getting bonuses (and Ming should be powerful, sure), but holy loving poo poo. Ming ran out of manpower within a year and then recruited 100 000 mercenaries (yes literally 100 loving merc stacks) and kept sending them to die. To defend this Indian minor Ming lost more than half a million soldiers, which is the point where I quit the run. I could've invaded Ming, siege them down and taken their stuff, but my goal was just to unify India, and get the fort achievement. I did Garhwhal's achievement a couple of days ago, simply by being Ming's bitch all game. Cleared that problem right up! It's still immensely idiotic, that you have to pay a Ming tax if you want to play beyond Eastern Europe as anything but the strongest of nations.
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Nov 15, 2017 15:36
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Fintilgin posted:You used to be able to do it as anyone. It must have been in an old patch, as mentioned, pre-liberty desire too. I still remember my first game as the Ottomans, where I quit after the Crimean khanate got a PU over me when my starting ruler died a year into the game.
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Nov 15, 2017 16:05
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Fintilgin posted:You used to be able to do it as anyone. It must have been in an old patch, as mentioned, pre-liberty desire too. 
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Nov 15, 2017 16:09
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I feel like my memory is playing tricks on me because I don't remember EU3 looking that ugly
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Nov 15, 2017 16:13
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:I feel like my memory is playing tricks on me because I don't remember EU3 looking that ugly They improved it significantly with expansions but on release it was definitely this hideous. The gameplay was pretty awful too, there was a reason Magna Mundi became so big
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