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I think the idea that things aren't just as bad or worse in Chinese white-collar workplaces because Mao said some decent stuff at the height of the Cultural Revolution is hilariously credulous. There's basically no women in senior government or Party roles, I don't see why business would be any different Also, given the sexual harassment outing apocalypse going on right now in America in TYOOL 2017, the idea that American office culture is some post-sexist utopia is also sort of weird and hilarious The low number of women in management in East Asia is striking, but I feel like at some point there will/might be a trend break. It would probably be easier with major labor market reform that gets rid of the permanent/temp employee distinction, and who knows if or when that will happen. That's my optimism again though icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Nov 12, 2017 |
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Nov 11, 2017 23:53
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I am certainly no "expert" on Japanese culture. However, from what I often see (and this may be wrong please correctly) in Japanese media, problems with sexism and classism aren't dealt with the same context as it is in the West. For example, often in Japanese media, NEETS are typically people who willing choose that lifestyle or at best people who "aren't cut out to be a salaryman". They are typically portrayed as middle classish individuals who let their personal life get in the way of their work-life. In contrast to Western media, where people struggling are often seemed to be doing so mostly due to external factors. I feel that when these topics are brought up in Western media it focuses more so on the topic of "justice" rather than simply "I lost my way". Maybe I just watched the wrong shows, or I am a complete idiot, but that's what I've noticed from my very limited experience.
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Nov 12, 2017 01:44
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icantfindaname posted:I think the idea that things aren't just as bad or worse in Chinese white-collar workplaces because Mao said some decent stuff at the height of the Cultural Revolution is hilariously credulous. There's basically no women in senior government or Party roles, I don't see why business would be any different I mean, I haven't worked in Japan but I have in Korea, which has very similar issues, as well as China. The difference is striking. You are right that the political leadership is a sausagefest but there are professional women in positions equal to or superior to men all over the place in China. My own company is largely run by women, and you see women all the time in roles like bus driver or police officer that are basically nonexistent in Korea. I know a number of women entrepreneurs here and I never met or even heard of such a thing in Korea. There are a good number of major Chinese corporations with female CEOs. http://fortune.com/2015/01/15/the-number-of-chinese-women-in-top-corporate-jobs-is-exploding/ icantfindaname posted:Also, given the sexual harassment outing apocalypse going on right now in America in TYOOL 2017, the idea that American office culture is some post-sexist utopia is also sort of weird and hilarious Where did anyone say anything about America? 
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Nov 12, 2017 03:20
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There's a really good book called Dissenting Japan about the history of Japanese counterculture movements. It might have been recommended by someone in this thread actually. One of the points the author makes is that the organised political left in Japan basically imploded in the 1970's due to infighting, with a lot of people being murdered, and the whole thing culminating in a very widely publicised hostage crisis. Those radical leftwing movements were very sexist, so if those movements hadn't collapsed they wouldn't have necessarily led to a less sexist modern Japan, but I think it's definitely plausible that there's a link between Japan's loss of appetite for collective, anti-establishment political action after the 1970's and the very conservative culture you see in the country today. I think it has probably made it more difficult to organise a feminist movement in the country, at least.
Red Bones fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Nov 12, 2017 |
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Nov 12, 2017 10:07
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icantfindaname posted:It would probably be easier with major labor market reform that gets rid of the permanent/temp employee distinction This is a very, very big problem imo, and if they don't fix it soon it's going to gently caress them over for a long time.
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Nov 12, 2017 11:38
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icantfindaname posted:the idea that American office culture is some post-sexist utopia is also sort of weird and hilarious
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Nov 12, 2017 12:13
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punk rebel ecks posted:For example, often in Japanese media, NEETS are typically people who willing choose that lifestyle or at best people who "aren't cut out to be a salaryman". They are typically portrayed as middle classish individuals who let their personal life get in the way of their work-life. It's portrayed that way to make aging boomers feel better about screwing over their kids. If they think it's the kid's choice not to work, and not the economic system they benefit from that has people working harder and harder for less money and benefits, then they don't have to feel guilty that little Taro can't afford to have kids or buy a house on his temp worker salary. It's his choice, you see.
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Nov 13, 2017 03:27
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LyonsLions posted:It's portrayed that way to make aging boomers feel better about screwing over their kids. If they think it's the kid's choice not to work, and not the economic system they benefit from that has people working harder and harder for less money and benefits, then they don't have to feel guilty that little Taro can't afford to have kids or buy a house on his temp worker salary. It's his choice, you see.
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Nov 13, 2017 03:31
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So why are such few people in Japan having babies? Someone said one reason is due to women not wanting their careers ruined, but if they don't have much of a ladder to climb to begin with...Grouchio posted:Isn't that the mindset most americans had about their own success before the Great Depression, when they started blaming the govt for their woes? Exactly, which is when leftism really gained a stronghold in Western culture in general.
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Nov 13, 2017 03:58
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punk rebel ecks posted:So why are such few people in Japan having babies? Someone said one reason is due to women not wanting their careers ruined, but if they don't have much of a ladder to climb to begin with... Like most things involving human beings, there are multiple contributing factors and reasons. For one, the birth rate started to decline in the 1960's, so no matter how many babies women choose to have now, it won't reverse the population decline because, as Taro Aso so delicately put it, there are a smaller number of "birth-giving machines." Unless they each have 4-5 babies a piece, which isn't even possible because people are marrying much later. Women's participation in the workforce is a part of it, as is the rate of women pursuing higher education, which contributes to later marriage age.
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Nov 13, 2017 04:29
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Also keep in mind that Japan has a birth rate entirely in line with a normal first world nation, and a higher birth rate than a number of European nations. The birth rate is really not strange, and most of the articles in the Western media about Japanese sex life are basically cash grabs and cherry picked data and anecdotes. Placed in a grater context their birth rate is entirely normal. What is difference is that Japan has much less permanent immigration, and its elderly are very long lived, so there is a legitimate demographics issue and an issue with an aging society, which the birth rate *is* a component of, but it’s being shown as abnormal or a unique issue is basically entirely orientalism and shoddy journalism imo.
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Nov 13, 2017 04:35
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Grouchio posted:Isn't that the mindset most americans had about their own success before the Great Depression, when they started blaming the govt for their woes? That's the mindset most American baby boomers have today in TYOOL 2017 about their kids and grandkids. Cue endless list of Atlantic articles about Millenials
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Nov 13, 2017 04:37
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punk rebel ecks posted:CEOs take the first pay cut (gave a Japanese airline as example) I would like her to meet the CEO of my company, who cut all employees' pay and bought himself a couple of million dollar houses in Australia. He also has a tattletale box, where you can put in notes about other people. He has the only key.
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Nov 13, 2017 06:51
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LyonsLions posted:I would like her to meet the CEO of my company, who cut all employees' pay and bought himself a couple of million dollar houses in Australia. I feel like I dodged a ten-inch bullet a few years ago.
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Nov 13, 2017 07:58
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Weatherman posted:I feel like I dodged a ten-inch bullet a few years ago. It's gotten pretty steadily worse since then. Ask me about having to care for my boss's pet goat.
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Nov 13, 2017 08:40
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LyonsLions posted:Ask me about having to care for my boss's pet goat. Go on...
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Nov 14, 2017 09:51
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LyonsLions posted:Ask me about having to care for my boss's pet goat. 
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Nov 14, 2017 10:04
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Apologies for interrupting goat-chat, but Koike quit as leader of the Party of Hope. That probably means the party is toast, given that it existed as the national wing of her nascent political movement. I predict a merger of some kind with Osaka Restoration by, let's say, April of next year.
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Nov 14, 2017 12:52
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Our ancient groundskeeper retired, so boss decided to replace him with a goat. One goat. This goat is supposed to keep the grass short in this grassy field area behind one of our buildings. It is basically neglected because the boss isn't around enough to take care of it, and there is a goat rotation of employees to give it water, but that's all the care it gets. It is aggressive and headbutts anyone who goes into its area, so nobody wants to deal with it. And it is supposed to keep the grass short, but one goat can't keep up with a field that size. But of course nobody wants to mow the lawn because of all the goat poo poo, so the grass and weeds are out of control. When boss bought the goat, he put a patronizing article in the company newsletter about how taking care of animals makes us better people, so we should thank him for the opportunity to take care of this goat. During Golden Week and other long breaks employees are required to go to work to check on this poor goat. Boss is an rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 15, 2017 03:20
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LyonsLions posted:Our ancient groundskeeper retired, so boss decided to replace him with a goat. One goat. This goat is supposed to keep the grass short in this grassy field area behind one of our buildings. It is basically neglected because the boss isn't around enough to take care of it, and there is a goat rotation of employees to give it water, but that's all the care it gets. It is aggressive and headbutts anyone who goes into its area, so nobody wants to deal with it. And it is supposed to keep the grass short, but one goat can't keep up with a field that size. But of course nobody wants to mow the lawn because of all the goat poo poo, so the grass and weeds are out of control. When boss bought the goat, he put a patronizing article in the company newsletter about how taking care of animals makes us better people, so we should thank him for the opportunity to take care of this goat. During Golden Week and other long breaks employees are required to go to work to check on this poor goat. Boss is an rear end in a top hat. LMAO
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Nov 15, 2017 03:53
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LyonsLions posted:Ask me about having to care for my boss's pet goat.
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Nov 15, 2017 05:06
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Forgot a few good goat stories: -The goat actually hates the boss, because he has the emotional maturity of a 3 year old and is always yanking it around by the horns and trying to ride it. -That notwithstanding, when boss is at the company (about 5 days/month), he will eat lunch in the goat field because no humans want to eat lunch with him. He will drag a chair out to the middle of the field and sit there eating his bento, while the goat cowers in a corner. -The only way boss can get goat to come near him is by given it some tasty goat snacks. No one else is allowed to feed the goat. This is supposed to encourage it to eat more grass, even in the winter when the grass is all dead, and even when boss goes on vacation for 3-4 weeks. -One lady got special permission to feed the goat rice bran, and now a bunch of people bring rice bran from home to feed the goat because it's sad listening to it cry all day. -Somebody found out that an old guy in the neighborhood was feeding the goat bread and carrots and poo poo through the fence. Boss was furious and installed cameras, and told everybody to be on the lookout and to call the police if anybody is hanging around the fence. I am sure the police cannot wait to catch these rogue goatfeeders. -The field with the goat lives is just leftover land within the company grounds, and back when it was being regularly maintained, people would occasionally kick a soccer ball around out there at lunch time, but it was mostly unused. When the groundskeeper left and there was a meeting to discuss what to do, one suggestion that most of the management agreed on was paving that land and making a new employee parking lot, as the current one is a block away, and some of the female employees were getting harassed on the way back to their cars at night, because it's kind of a shady area. Boss was like, hm, I'll consider it. The goat showed up like 3 days later. -The goat had lived on a goat farm with other goats and people, and was suddenly shoved into this company backyard where for the most part people are only around Mon-Fri 8-5. The poor thing was so lonely, and every night as it started to get dark the goat would have a freakout because it knew it was going to be left alone in the dark soon. The people in the office closest to the goat would have to explain to customers and vendors why there was frantic bleating in the background during phone calls. Some people tried to convince boss to buy another goat, but he said no, he wanted the goat to imprint to him, and having another goat would mean the goat wouldn't need his company or something. Also he is a shithead.
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Nov 15, 2017 07:27
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I hope you've exhausted all the possibilities of getting some goat authority involved so that poor animal isn't being tortured anymore.
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Nov 15, 2017 07:50
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Kilroy posted:I hope you've exhausted all the possibilities of getting some goat authority involved so that poor animal isn't being tortured anymore. By Japan standards it's not doing that badly. I thought the same thing, and then I went to this cafe in the countryside where they had a bunch of animals living in tiny, dirty cages, and in one of the cages was a similar looking goat that was all hosed up from not being able to move around, and I realized that the goat is doing about as well as a goat can be expected to do here. It has space to move and is not forced to lay on its own feces every night. In fact it's doing the best out of all the goats I've seen around, that are usually pets of hobby farmer types and are kept tied up on short leashes, living in dirty doghouses. There isn't anybody to call that could or would do anything about the company goat situation, and if there was, there are a lot of goats being treated much worse that they would be preoccupied with.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:12
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Yeah, Ja "ask about how much we love and revere nature!" pan is pretty loving abysmal in its treatment of animals, both wild and pet. I made the mistake of going to the "zoo" at Odawara Castle once and it completely turned me off visiting any kind of animal park or aquarium here ever again. Not to mention the pet shops in loving Kabukicho of all places with toy ratdogs under fluoro lights 24/7.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:48
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Weatherman posted:Yeah, Ja "ask about how much we love and revere nature!" pan is pretty loving abysmal in its treatment of animals, both wild and pet. Please tell me more about the "zoo".
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Nov 15, 2017 09:50
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LyonsLions posted:By Japan standards it's not doing that badly. I thought the same thing, and then I went to this cafe in the countryside where they had a bunch of animals living in tiny, dirty cages, and in one of the cages was a similar looking goat that was all hosed up from not being able to move around, and I realized that the goat is doing about as well as a goat can be expected to do here. It has space to move and is not forced to lay on its own feces every night. In fact it's doing the best out of all the goats I've seen around, that are usually pets of hobby farmer types and are kept tied up on short leashes, living in dirty doghouses. There isn't anybody to call that could or would do anything about the company goat situation, and if there was, there are a lot of goats being treated much worse that they would be preoccupied with. Yeah one time I played a show at a bar in Tokyo and the gimmick of the place was that it had a ton of fish tanks with various kinds of fish. Also in this place was a loving rabbit in a cage. I kind of assume that rabbit went deaf long ago. I jokingly asked the bar tender if they’re going to eat the big catfish they have eventually and he was like “Oh noooo I’d feel too sorry for it.” 
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Nov 15, 2017 09:56
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punk rebel ecks posted:Please tell me more about the "zoo". Not Odawara, but Himeji Castle has a similarly crappy 'zoo' in its grounds. Only 200 yen to enter... https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g298191-d1724634-Reviews-Himeji_City_Zoo-Himeji_Hyogo_Prefecture_Kinki.html?m=19904 For a bonus, try to spot the difference between the 5 star and 1 star reviews.
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Nov 15, 2017 11:35
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Just never go to any zoos in East Asia. If you think Japanese ones are bad try China. If you want to see animals there are perfectly decent aquariums, or the panda center in Chengdu is actually quite nice and basically just an enclosed bamboo forest for the pandas to roll around in and not gently caress.
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Nov 15, 2017 11:38
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I went to Zoorasia in Yokohama and it seemed fine to me. Very crowded (human-wise), but fine. I don't remember being appalled by the animal enclosures.
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Nov 15, 2017 14:33
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Asahikawa zoo is nice and tidy. In Winter they walk the penguins 
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Nov 15, 2017 17:32
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Weatherman posted:Not to mention the pet shops in loving Kabukicho of all places with toy ratdogs under fluoro lights 24/7. If they're like the one - at least I only remember the one - in Roppongi they're basically a scam. You're dead drunk, you pick up a floozy, she tells you how happy she'd be if you buy her a dog, and then after you've bought the dog she returns it to the shop and they split the cost. Pet shops in Japan are just horrific though - my wife's second cat was a pedigree american short hair cat who'd been abandoned in the countryside after she was old enough to no longer be a cute kitten and therefore attract a sales fee of \400,000 or so.
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Nov 15, 2017 17:50
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ookiimarukochan posted:Pet shops in Japan are just horrific though - my wife's second cat was a pedigree american short hair cat who'd been abandoned in the countryside after she was old enough to no longer be a cute kitten and therefore attract a sales fee of \400,000 or so.
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Nov 15, 2017 19:01
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If children's lives are supposed to be so precious, why does one of the major American parties hate CHIP? Every country is full of hypocrisy and stupid, that's why.
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Nov 15, 2017 19:48
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Grand Fromage posted:Just never go to any zoos in East Asia. If you think Japanese ones are bad try China. If you want to see animals there are perfectly decent aquariums, or the panda center in Chengdu is actually quite nice and basically just an enclosed bamboo forest for the pandas to roll around in and not gently caress. If you like animals you should boycott any aquarium in Asia that has dolphins - they all get them from the brutally inhumane drive hunts in Taiji.
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Nov 18, 2017 07:53
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Tuxedo Gin posted:If you like animals you should boycott any aquarium in Asia that has dolphins - they all get them from the brutally inhumane drive hunts in Taiji. Supposedly, "The Japanese Association of Zoos and Aquariums" says they won't buy them. That's not everyone obviously, but that's a decent number of Japanese aquariums. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/05/150527-taiji-dolphins-hunt-cove-japan-killing-animals/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/21/asia/japan-aquariums-taiji-dolphins/index.html Vulpes Vvardenfell fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 11:19
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Grouchio posted:Why would Japan treat what they would consider cute like this? Because they’re people? It’s not like people being lovely to cute animals is some kind of unknown concept.
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Nov 18, 2017 11:56
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Vulpes Vvardenfell posted:Supposedly, "The Japanese Association of Zoos and Aquariums" says they won't buy them. That's not everyone obviously, but that's a decent number of Japanese aquariums. True, they did do that (finally) after the global body suspended them, but all the dolphins they have right now are products of the drives, and some of the zoos and aquariums have left the association in protest because they lust for dolphin death, apparently. I don't crusade about it, but I made a moral decision not to support organizations that fund the senseless slaughter of sea mammals, so that means the majority of zoos and aquariums in Asia are NG. Nagasaki Bio Park is loving rad, though. I could hang out all day with chill rear end capybaras.
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Nov 18, 2017 12:10
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I'm pretty sure Kaiyukan doesn't have dolphins either, which is good because that's a dope af aquarium.
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Nov 18, 2017 19:25
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They have dolphins too.
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Nov 19, 2017 04:38
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