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4000 Dollar Suit posted:I remember DDs1 being better but just re-watched it and holy poo poo it's stupid just how much ridiculously better than everything else marvel netflix it is. It helps that season 1 Daredevil has his simple, visually distinctive black scarf look instead of his lame supersuit.
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Nov 15, 2017 07:09
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lol then. Just lol. I get the annoyance and bitching if that's what the season ends on. e: ^^ also deknight. I bet he could make DD's dumb suit work. Just bring back DeKnight and have him do all the Marvel Netflix shows please
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Nov 15, 2017 07:37
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esperterra posted:Just bring back DeKnight and have him do all the Marvel Netflix shows please
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Nov 15, 2017 07:52
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Writing quality has definitely gone downhill noticeably (arguably beginning with DD2 second half) and I really hope Marvel addresses this very soon, ideally before the next round of each series.
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Nov 15, 2017 07:55
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4000 Dollar Suit posted:I remember DDs1 being better but just re-watched it and holy poo poo it's stupid just how much ridiculously better than everything else marvel netflix it is. I think Jessica Jones is up there with DDs1 too.
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Nov 15, 2017 08:49
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So unless I missed something, Foggy just laments Matt dying because he brought him the suit, nothing about him bringing the suit to make Matt stop being DD. Anyway I liked the ending quite a bit, the stuff with Elektra and Matt while everyone escapes was pretty terribly written, but the actors sold it for me anyway. The little wrap ups with everyone were solid, too. The moment between Jessica and Luke was very good. I didn't hate this season, but it clearly didn't wow me since I took so long to finish. I thoroughly enjoyed binging the first half, but I watched it mostly with a friend so maybe that helped carry it. I wasn't compelled to finish since yesterday, and only because with Punisher coming I don't feel like having three Marvel shows going. I still need to finish Luke Cage. Shame about them wasting Sigourney Weaver like that.
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Nov 15, 2017 09:13
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LesterGroans posted:It helps that season 1 Daredevil has his simple, visually distinctive black scarf look instead of his lame supersuit. I agree, the black scarf was bad rear end, and he even looked better with Jessica's scarf in Defenders and she agreed right when I thought it.
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Nov 15, 2017 13:00
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esperterra posted:Shame about them wasting Sigourney Weaver like that. This was hands-down the show’s biggest crime. How do you bring Sigourney Weaver into the Marvel universe and make her a whiny loser failure who dies.
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Nov 15, 2017 13:52
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GobiasIndustries posted:I think Jessica Jones is up there with DDs1 too. Easily. It's much more interesting and originally thematically compared to Daredevil's (well-executed) take on the morality of vigilantism.
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Nov 15, 2017 13:55
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GobiasIndustries posted:I think Jessica Jones is up there with DDs1 too. And that's with the dumb Nuke plot taken into account, no less
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Nov 15, 2017 19:20
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GobiasIndustries posted:I think Jessica Jones is up there with DDs1 too. Agreed. DD1 and JJ were such strong starts. I really felt like The Punisher was gonna be a return to form, but I think it will be a mixed bag from the sounds of things.
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Nov 15, 2017 20:30
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Alexeythegreat posted:And that's with the dumb Nuke plot taken into account, no less Nuke was cool simply for how they subverted the MCU Captain America. Costuming him like Steve was a clever move.
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Nov 15, 2017 21:19
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Foggy wants Matt to stop because he knows his friend is going to end up dead but he also recognizes the good he's doing, the need for Daredevil, and Matt's passion to help. Karen by comparison doesn't really "get" the "need" for Daredevil and is just focused on saving Matt. Foggy wants that, but he sees the bigger picture. Foggy delivers conflicting messages because he's conflicted. He didn't want Matt to put on the costume, but he knew he "needed" it because poo poo had to get done. Defenders was sloppy, for sure, but the idea is clear enough to see if you want to.
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Nov 16, 2017 02:10
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Yeah, that's what I got from it, too. He clearly doesn't want to give him the suit but knows he must, not only to save the city but to keep his and Matt's asses clear from any blowback if the police suss out the blind lawyer is the Devil of Hell's Kitchen. He didn't bring the suit as a means to talk him out of it. I mean ofc he hoped Matt would move past it once the city was saved, and ofc he feels lovely for bringing Matt the suit only to have him 'die'. Badly written but not so badly written for me to take it the way most of this thread seemed to.
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Nov 16, 2017 02:21
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codenameFANGIO posted:This was hands-down the show’s biggest crime. How do you bring Sigourney Weaver into the Marvel universe and make her a whiny loser failure who dies. I always see this sort of casting as going the other way -- it's not so much "Hey, we've got Sigourney Weaver, let's give her jack poo poo to do" as it is "Our villain kind of sucks, we need an A-Lister to bring a bit extra to the role." I mean sure, ideally the Big Bad shouldn't be underwritten in the first place, but assuming (for whatever reason) that she is then I think Casting made the right call.
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Nov 16, 2017 03:21
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At the very least, it gave me the glorious moment of Weaver uttering the word 'baka'.
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Nov 16, 2017 03:30
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...but it was still so bad.
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Nov 16, 2017 03:41
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The best parts were the awful/hilarious "hints" in the first couple episodes about Sigourney's character being really old. So lame and clichéd.
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Nov 16, 2017 03:50
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HIJK posted:...but it was still so bad. Yeah, but it almost worked -- for me anyway. Weaver is fun to watch, and I liked her scenes. I genuinely bought in to her being the biggest bad-rear end in the room despite no actual evidence to support it, purely on the strength of her performance. It was only after the fact that I realized she was a lame duck villain. TBH, this is the MCU's go-to strategy for their antagonists -- underdevelop and over-cast to compensate. Sometimes it works like gangbusters (Robert Redford) and sometimes (usually?) not so much. All I'm saying is that given the role of Alexandra as written, I'm glad I got to watch Sigourney than some no-name hack (*cough* Bakuto *cough*).
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Nov 16, 2017 03:51
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Yakmouth posted:TBH, this is the MCU's go-to strategy for their antagonists -- underdevelop and over-cast to compensate. Sometimes it works like gangbusters (Robert Redford) and sometimes (usually?) not so much. All I'm saying is that given the role of Alexandra as written, I'm glad I got to watch Sigourney than some no-name hack (*cough* Bakuto *cough*). Definitely. It's such a crazy thing to happen in the Netflix shows though, because most people would agree the seasons feel a little padded anyway. Put that time into developing your villains a little more instead. DD1, JJ and the first half of DD2 do this and it's probably not a coincidence that they're the best of the Marvel Netflix shows.
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Nov 16, 2017 07:20
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LesterGroans posted:The best parts were the awful/hilarious "hints" in the first couple episodes about Sigourney's character being really old. So lame and clichéd. "This is almost as good as the stuff I had back in my day, in... Constantinople." "You mean Istanbul, as people refer to it in the modern era?" "LOL sorry, senior moment!"
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Nov 16, 2017 07:26
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It really sucks because Mariah killing Cottonmouth was like the best scene in Luke Cage, so they can write women, they can even write EVIL women convincingly they just chose to make her so limpwristed and worthless despite being the actual best actor on the show
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Nov 16, 2017 07:43
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You know, for as much hate as Scott Buck gets, it really is Petrie and Ramirez who need to shoulder most of the blame for MCUNetflix losing its shine. They (presumably) came up with ‘big hole’ as a supposedly interesting plot hook to base the entirety of The Defenders on. They were also the ones who couldn’t find a way to make Immortal Zombie Ninjas interesting to watch. They wiped out The Chaste off-camera for no benefit that I can discern, and given 21 hours of television to do so were unable to come up with an even half-assed explanation for what a “Black Sky” is. When I look at the broad outline for the plot of DD2/Defenders I can see a good story. But the execution was just so miserable. (To be fair, I liked the Punisher bits of DD2 — but I’m starting to wonder that wasn’t good by accident.) Don’t get me wrong, Buck’s not awesome, but when it comes to incompetent MCU show runners I’m not positive he’s the actual worst. LesterGroans posted:Definitely. It's such a crazy thing to happen in the Netflix shows though, because most people would agree the seasons feel a little padded anyway. Put that time into developing your villains a little more instead. DD1, JJ and the first half of DD2 do this and it's probably not a coincidence that they're the best of the Marvel Netflix shows. I’d include Shades and Cottonmouth here. They were great, too.
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Nov 16, 2017 07:48
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I love Weaver but a few scenes before she died I was definitely thinking "ok I'm getting kind of tired of this chick" it's tough to reach the highs of Kingpin and Killgrave, Cotton mouth was almost as good but he never disturbed me the way Fisk and KG did, I just enjoyed him in the same way I enjoy some of the antagonists from The Wire.
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Nov 16, 2017 07:54
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Yakmouth posted:I’d include Shades and Cottonmouth here. They were great, too. Yeah. I generally like Luke Cage, flaws and all, but losing Cottonmouth halfway through was a big mistake.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:00
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My biggest issue with Luke is that he hasn't picked anyone up by a leg and gone Bam-Bam on them yet. Defenders seemed like the place to do that, since I don't think he wants to really mess anyone up in Harlem.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:05
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LesterGroans posted:Yeah. I generally like Luke Cage, flaws and all, but losing Cottonmouth halfway through was a big mistake. Huge mistake, but I get why they thought it would work. Luke Cage did their due dilligance trying to build up Diamondback as the ‘true’ villain of the series. It can be hard to guage how people will react to the plot beats of a TV show, and they don’t get to do re-shoots if they miss their mark. It’s disappointing, but I tend to be able to forgive flubs like that.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:15
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Yakmouth posted:Huge mistake, but I get why they thought it would work. Luke Cage did their due dilligance trying to build up Diamondback as the ‘true’ villain of the series. It can be hard to guage how people will react to the plot beats of a TV show, and they don’t get to do re-shoots if they miss their mark. It’s disappointing, but I tend to be able to forgive flubs like that. Yeah, it's disappointing that it didn't land, but splitting the season up into "villain pods" is a solid idea. 24 did that a bunch -- obviously with diminishing returns -- and it sets it apart from the other Marvel Netflix shows. I still enjoyed it and am excited for season 2.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:19
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LesterGroans posted:The best parts were the awful/hilarious "hints" in the first couple episodes about Sigourney's character being really old. So lame and clichéd. When she dresses down the instructor of the string section of the New York Philharmonic during her private performance and smugly has an "ackshually" moment, correcting the instructor on some Beethoven trivia was hilarious.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:20
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Those were all hilarious and reminded me of the "What do you think of Mozart?" "Oh, your composer" "Our composer? He belongs to the world" exchange from This Island Earth.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:28
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LesterGroans posted:Yeah, it's disappointing that it didn't land, but splitting the season up into "villain pods" is a solid idea. 24 did that a bunch -- obviously with diminishing returns -- and it sets it apart from the other Marvel Netflix shows. I still enjoyed it and am excited for season 2. Nah, the reason DD1 for example worked so well was that Kingpin was the end-game villain throughout the season, but DD had to overcome "minibosses" along the way. Same with JJ. The issue with DD2 and LC is that once the first villain/adversary was taken care of, the second one basically came out of nowhere. Frank's arc wasn't directly related to The Hand so it felt like two distinct seasons. Similarly, even though Diamondback was mentioned a few times earlier in LC, the first time we ever saw him was when he shot LC. Video games learned this lesson well: if you want the audience to care about a villain, you need to make sure they have a persistent presence and a direct hand in all affairs from the beginning, rather than be the big reveal halfway through or near the end.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:32
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Really the entire Hand were a waste aside from Gao. Everyone else got offed before actually accomplishing anything, or was bland like Bakuto. I'd be all for Gao surviving though, she's cool. Aside from the fact that practically every character lets her make some big speech that throws them off balance while also moaning "Could someone please shut her up!?" How about you. You shut her up. You have the ability to do that.McSpanky posted:"This is almost as good as the stuff I had back in my day, in... Constantinople." "You mean Istanbul, as people refer to it in the modern era?" "LOL sorry, senior moment!" "Why they changed it, I can't say." sticklefifer fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Nov 16, 2017 |
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Nov 16, 2017 08:39
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enraged_camel posted:Nah, the reason DD1 for example worked so well was that Kingpin was the end-game villain throughout the season, but DD had to overcome "minibosses" along the way. Same with JJ. I dunno, it can work both ways. Not every series or season needs one overarching or omnipresent villain. The reason DD1 and JJ worked well isn't because it had "minibosses" -- most series will have single or multi-episode "minibosses" -- it's because their villains were written well and were interestingly explored. Hell, there are episodic series that manage to create a powerful, interesting villain in 40-odd minutes. A good example of "villain pods" or whatever is Veronics Mars season 3. It had three different big mysteries, but the emotional arc carried throughout the entire season. Something like that could definitely be accomplished with a superhero series, especially one like JJ.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:40
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This last season of Agents of SHIELD managed to nail the idea of smaller, but interconnected seasonal arcs with their own villains while building them up into one huge final threat. It's definitely doable, and it's amazing when it gets pulled off well. It does seem to be the sort of format that would work well for this unfortunately consistent issue of dragging out that later Netflix shows have had. Then again, just having their show runners cooperate better so that The Hand didn't get so absurdly over-used and diluted at the same time would have done wonders too.
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Nov 16, 2017 08:57
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The Punisher does a solid job of this. Paul Schulze's Rawlins is the big villain of the show that Frank is after, but he's basically characterized as "lovely CIA guy" throughout. So he falls victim to the poorly executed bad guy issue. Luckily there's also Billy Russo, who is kind of a "surprise villain" -- it's extremely obvious -- but is very well-developed and has a great connection to Frank. There's also a villain with a mini-arc who is super well-acted, directly connected to one of the most interesting themes of the show and isn't actually one of the subplots that drags.
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Nov 16, 2017 09:04
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Do I need to watch DD2 before watching The Punisher tomorrow? I started watching DD and I am 10 episodes in but would much rather watch The Punisher as it was my favorite comic growing up.
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Nov 16, 2017 17:20
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JEEVES420 posted:Do I need to watch DD2 before watching The Punisher tomorrow? I started watching DD and I am 10 episodes in but would much rather watch The Punisher as it was my favorite comic growing up. If you like The Punisher, you should at the very least watch the first half of DD2.
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Nov 16, 2017 17:24
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Yakmouth posted:You know, for as much hate as Scott Buck gets, it really is Petrie and Ramirez who need to shoulder most of the blame for MCUNetflix losing its shine. They (presumably) came up with ‘big hole’ as a supposedly interesting plot hook to base the entirety of The Defenders on. They were also the ones who couldn’t find a way to make Immortal Zombie Ninjas interesting to watch. They wiped out The Chaste off-camera for no benefit that I can discern, and given 21 hours of television to do so were unable to come up with an even half-assed explanation for what a “Black Sky” is. Underrated post. Their biggest sin was not putting their own shine on Daredevil, they just copied the best parts of DeKnight's run and then stuck their hands in their pants for Elektra, robbing everyone of a good character. I don't know what else they've done but their output on Daredevil season 2 and season 2.5 is such a loving drag.
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Nov 16, 2017 17:34
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JEEVES420 posted:Do I need to watch DD2 before watching The Punisher tomorrow? I started watching DD and I am 10 episodes in but would much rather watch The Punisher as it was my favorite comic growing up. No. You just need to know that the world thinks Frank Castle is dead and Frank Castle and Karen Page are friends.
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Nov 16, 2017 19:14
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JEEVES420 posted:Do I need to watch DD2 before watching The Punisher tomorrow? I started watching DD and I am 10 episodes in but would much rather watch The Punisher as it was my favorite comic growing up. I'd watch just for the prison fight scene. Goddamn it is brutal and awesome.
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Nov 16, 2017 19:29
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