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CommunistPancake posted:truly before its time Yep
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Nov 14, 2017 19:56
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feedmegin posted:Wayland is a windowing system/compositor, not HPC or anything, so in fact its largest target GPU market is Intel. Plenty of people out there running without discrete GPUs because they don't need them to shuffle windows around their desktop. 100% of a $0 market
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Nov 15, 2017 01:24
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there's probably at least some embedded stuff that uses intel gpus
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Nov 15, 2017 01:26
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feedmegin posted:Wayland is a windowing system/compositor, not HPC or anything, so in fact its largest target GPU market is Intel. Plenty of people out there running without discrete GPUs because they don't need them to shuffle windows around their desktop. i'm running with an integrated gpu so that cuda can have all the gtx 780's ram to itself because boy howdy does it need it
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Nov 15, 2017 05:01
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atomicthumbs posted:i'm running with an integrated gpu so that cuda can have all the gtx 780's ram to itself because boy howdy does it need it i tried to do this on my server box and the motherboard hates the idea, you either have to set it to use the integrated graphics adapter by default (in which case the GPU doesn't even show up at all once the system boots) or in any other configuration the integrated graphics adapter is never started and the only display signal is coming out of the card itself
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Nov 15, 2017 08:10
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:100% of a $0 market I don't get why you keep talking about dollar values here. People aren't working on Wayland to make fat cash, they're making it because they're tired of the technical deficiencies and technical debt of X11.
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Nov 15, 2017 18:23
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feedmegin posted:I don't get why you keep talking about dollar values here. People aren't working on Wayland to make fat cash, they're making it because they're tired of the technical deficiencies and technical debt of X11. unfortunately for them, most of the users are touching X11 in order to make money
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Nov 15, 2017 18:26
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people use weyland for dork reasons so that really doesn't matter at all it's like complaining that gentoo doesn't make any money
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Nov 15, 2017 20:03
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:unfortunately for them, most of the users are touching X11 in order to make money dont worry redhat is moving to wayland so that wont be an issue
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Nov 15, 2017 20:27
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ate all the Oreos posted:it's like complaining that gentoo doesn't make any money but no one ever complains that vendors are unresponsive to gentoo's needs as a project
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Nov 15, 2017 20:42
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nvidia makes money off their linux graphics stack, and they sell the stack to people who also intend to use it to make money, with X11. the wayland developers would prefer nvidia did different things, but there is no reason for nvidia, or users, to care about the preferences of wayland developers as with all prior attempts to replace X11, wayland puts a lot at risk by paying too little attention to actually-existing X11 users and applications
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Nov 15, 2017 20:43
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:but no one ever complains that vendors are unresponsive to gentoo's needs as a project i guarantee tons of people do, you just don't hear them yelling from the basement
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Nov 15, 2017 22:14
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ate all the Oreos posted:i tried to do this on my server box and the motherboard hates the idea, you either have to set it to use the integrated graphics adapter by default (in which case the GPU doesn't even show up at all once the system boots) or in any other configuration the integrated graphics adapter is never started and the only display signal is coming out of the card itself what Operating System are you using because it sounds like a Piece of poo poo
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Nov 16, 2017 11:06
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atomicthumbs posted:what Operating System are you using because it sounds like a Piece of poo poo Sounds more like the BIOS/EFI tbh.
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Nov 16, 2017 12:23
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:nvidia makes money off their linux graphics stack, and they sell the stack to people who also intend to use it to make money, with X11. Users might well care about the preferences of Wayland developers, because that's what's likely to replace X11 and for good reasons. The Linux world is going there whether Nvidia likes it or not, Nvidia does not get to determine what Linux's graphics stack is, so at some point Nvidia is going to need to get with the programme, and in the meantime they inconvenience Nvidia users who have to choose between good drivers and Wayland instead of having both.
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Nov 16, 2017 12:27
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lol if you think X11 will actually be replaced it is not that wayland isn't cool, or doesn't fix real problems. it is just that folks have been trying to get rid of X11 for 25 years. it is a grand field of broken dreams to a significant extent, nvidia really does determine what the graphics stack looks like. if nvidia chooses not to embrace wayland, the project is high and dry
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Nov 16, 2017 13:07
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lol if you think desktop linux has enough inertia to resist switching to wayland
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Nov 16, 2017 13:53
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gotta maintain those important x11 apps like .....?...
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Nov 16, 2017 13:53
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:lol if you think X11 will actually be replaced This is why the fact that Intel is actually the largest vendor, as I mentioned earlier, is important. For people who don't need high performance OpenGL, Nvidia doesn't get to dictate this at all. Even with Nvidia hardware nouveau is enough to run a desktop. Also, there hasn't heretofore been a competent, good, production-level replacement for X11 made by the people who previously maintained X11, backed as mentioned by major distros. I'm not even sure what you could be thinking of from like the mid 90s as a project to replace X on Linux.
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Nov 16, 2017 14:15
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amd's commitment to mesa and open source drivers are changing this too, nvidia ends up being the odd one out both in 2d and 3d
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Nov 16, 2017 15:42
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workstation opengl stuff like cad programs is going to remain an nvidia stronghold, sure. mesa doesn't even try to implement opengl 3+ in a compatibility profile afaik, if nvidia wants that swamp of bullshit then it's all theirs. i don't think that's the only market for accelerated 3d graphics that makes any money though. a lot of this stuff is contingent on vulkan taking off, which to be honest i'm pessimistic about. but if it does then that will be great; that particular driver interface doesn't have any of nvidia's dishonest bullshit baked into the implicit semantics in the same way that gaming opengl and d3d are now stuck with. an open-source radeon driver for vulkan took something like six months to bring up from nothing to a compliant implementation. six months afer that and it's even sort of performance competitive. the pieces are, in principle, in place for vulkan to become widespread. as a matter of fact, the only widely-deployed hardware platform at the moment that does not in principle support it is the raspberry pi boards released thus far with their vc4 socs. that being said, broadcom recently hired the guy who did the open source vc4 driver to write an open source gpu driver for vc5. which is used for uh, set top boxes. yep. possibly other unannounced platforms too, of course, but those would be under nda. can't possibly think what those other upcoming platforms might be...
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Nov 16, 2017 15:53
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feedmegin posted:This is why the fact that Intel is actually the largest vendor, as I mentioned earlier, is important. For people who don't need high performance OpenGL, Nvidia doesn't get to dictate this at all. Even with Nvidia hardware nouveau is enough to run a desktop. Also, there hasn't heretofore been a competent, good, production-level replacement for X11 made by the people who previously maintained X11, backed as mentioned by major distros. I'm not even sure what you could be thinking of from like the mid 90s as a project to replace X on Linux. intel is the largest vendor and minix is the most-deployed operating system
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Nov 16, 2017 21:34
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Sapozhnik posted:as a matter of fact, the only widely-deployed hardware platform at the moment that does not in principle support it is the raspberry pi boards released thus far with their vc4 socs. is this snark about macos not being widely-deployed
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Nov 16, 2017 22:33
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Sapozhnik posted:workstation opengl stuff like cad programs is going to remain an nvidia stronghold, sure. mesa doesn't even try to implement opengl 3+ in a compatibility profile afaik, if nvidia wants that swamp of bullshit then it's all theirs. i think this is changing with amd too, amd wants mesa to support compatibility profile so they don't have to maintain a binary driver plus open source. they got marek to work on it: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Mesa-GL31-ARB_compatibility
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Nov 16, 2017 22:35
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we have a linux thread for this peanut gallery commentary btw
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Nov 16, 2017 22:39
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replying like that only makes you seem bitter, the peanut gallery comments is at least tangentially on topic in retrospect, the stories from your adventures in developing for the gnome ecosystem were extremely interesting
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Nov 16, 2017 23:20
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atomicthumbs posted:i'm running with an integrated gpu so that cuda can have all the gtx 780's ram to itself because boy howdy does it need it thanks for this post, i didn't know this was actually possible on linux before. now i have my i915 doing display stuff and nvidia being the dumb cuda interface it is
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Nov 16, 2017 23:59
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feedmegin posted:I'm not even sure what you could be thinking of from like the mid 90s as a project to replace X on Linux. in the category of "X-like things" you've got - Xegl - Xgl - kdrive outside that category you have - openwindows - suntools/sunview - NeWS - display postscript wayland is not the first. this has been done over and over and over and over and users keep on plugging away with regular old x11, no matter what gets shoveled over the fence.
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Nov 17, 2017 01:41
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wayland brings a lot of cool stuff to the table i am just not an optimist see also: vulkan
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Nov 17, 2017 01:42
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I vaguely remember kdrive. I might have used it in handheld linux or something
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Nov 17, 2017 01:53
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:in the category of "X-like things" you've got That was a port of X to GL. It didn't go anywhere because AIGLX was a better idea. Eventually AIGLX was replaced with DRI2 when the kernel got real DRM drivers. Didn't change the application programming model. Notorious b.s.d. posted:- Xgl Xgl was basically the old name for Xegl. Didn't change the application programming model. Notorious b.s.d. posted:- kdrive A replacement for Xfree86's DDX code that is still in the server today: https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/tree/hw/kdrive It's used for Xephyr. Didn't change the application programming model. Notorious b.s.d. posted:outside that category you have Sun's distribution of the X server with added NeWS support. Didn't change the application programming model (on the X11 side). Notorious b.s.d. posted:- suntools/sunview A precursor to NeWS that nobody liked. Notorious b.s.d. posted:- NeWS A scriptable windowing system that nobody liked with some extremely outdated ideas about computer security. Dead on arrival because they didn't license it and nobody wanted to write Solaris-only apps when IRIX was where the money was. Notorious b.s.d. posted:- display postscript NeXT's proprietary display system which half-lives on today in spirit in OS X. Was too license-burden to be sold commercially; Apple switched to the FRAND-terms PDF graphics model before going back to a bitmap graphics model because it's more powerful. Notorious b.s.d. posted:wayland is not the first. this has been done over and over and over and over and users keep on plugging away with regular old x11, no matter what gets shoveled over the fence. I would have listed DirectFB and OpenWF. Both of which ignored the existing graphics and driver development community in favor of building their own, which is why they didn't gain traction.
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Nov 17, 2017 02:07
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Suspicious Dish posted:That was a port of X to GL. It didn't go anywhere because AIGLX was a better idea. Eventually AIGLX was replaced with DRI2 when the kernel got real DRM drivers. Didn't change the application programming model. the goal was to throw away the X server without throwing away application code. they wanted to radically simplify the server while retaining compatibility. needless to say that is not how it turned out. xgl and xegl were competitors. Suspicious Dish posted:A scriptable windowing system that nobody liked with some extremely outdated ideas about computer security. Dead on arrival because they didn't license it and nobody wanted to write Solaris-only apps when IRIX was where the money was. irix and solaris both shipped news as the default window system once upon a time both phased it out after it turned out precisely 0% of customers gave a gently caress about NeWS, and all of them were just using the NeWS server for X11 compatibility Suspicious Dish posted:NeXT's proprietary display system which half-lives on today in spirit in OS X. Was too license-burden to be sold commercially; Apple switched to the FRAND-terms PDF graphics model before going back to a bitmap graphics model because it's more powerful. adobe's goal was to sell display postscript as the new model. NeXT was the only vendor dumb enough to buy in. and we know how that turned out. lack of X11 support undermined nextstep as a workstation platform, and the company would have died if not for apple. Suspicious Dish posted:I would have listed DirectFB and OpenWF. Both of which ignored the existing graphics and driver development community in favor of building their own, which is why they didn't gain traction. directfb gets an honorable mention for being a cairo/gdk target back in the day
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Nov 17, 2017 02:26
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btw wayland isn't going to be able to change the programming model either as long as an x11 compatibility mode exists, people will use it. and they will scream if it goes away.
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Nov 17, 2017 02:29
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there is in fact a nontrivial market segment of people who primarily use linux programs written in the last 15 years yeah chrome is dragging rear end on wayland support but that's basically the last piece at this point
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Nov 17, 2017 03:26
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Suspicious Dish posted:NeXT's proprietary display system which half-lives on today in spirit in OS X. Was too license-burden to be sold commercially; Apple switched to the FRAND-terms PDF graphics model before going back to a bitmap graphics model because it's more powerful. it lives on period, quartz 2d is still how you draw 2d stuff. there was no migration away from and back to bitmaps, though. the ui frameworks have always used bitmaps in all OS X versions some time around 10.4 ish there were some rumors/leaks about Apple having a project to make the ui resolution independent by replicating the look of their bitmap based shiny candy ui controls with (presumably) quartz 2d api calls. if it was real it never shipped, and they ended up doing resolution independence an entirely different way, still using bitmaps for ui controls Notorious b.s.d. posted:adobe's goal was to sell display postscript as the new model. NeXT was the only vendor dumb enough to buy in. and we know how that turned out. lack of X11 support undermined nextstep as a workstation platform, and the company would have died if not for apple. Notorious b.s.d. posted:btw wayland isn't going to be able to change the programming model either lol u tool apple is the existence proof that you can ship a Unix without native x11 and do just fine wayland is p much “hey it’s about time we followed next/apples lead and made x11 apis into a compatibility shim u run on top of ur real window compositor if u absolutely need it”. they will not have as easy a time getting rid of the need for a shim for 99% of their users as Apple did but that does not mean the effort is doomed.
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Nov 17, 2017 03:46
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:the goal was to throw away the X server without throwing away application code. they wanted to radically simplify the server while retaining compatibility. needless to say that is not how it turned out. xgl was the overarching project. xglx and xegl were the implementations. xgl's original architecture had a master "system compositor" x server to do modesetting that had one client: xglx, which was the application server that uses opengl. when egl started becoming a thing, they switched to egl so that they could render directly to the framebuffer. the competing idea was aiglx, which let the x server share window pixmaps by way of indirect glx. aiglx won because it was a vastly simpler idea and achieved more benefits. Notorious b.s.d. posted:irix and solaris both shipped news as the default window system once upon a time my understanding was that 4sight's news impl was basically busted and non-interoperable. BobHoward posted:it lives on period, quartz 2d is still how you draw 2d stuff. there was no migration away from and back to bitmaps, though. the ui frameworks have always used bitmaps in all OS X versions apple's documentation is particularly opaque but the stuff i found seemed to suggest that apple's early windowserver stuff taken from display postscript "cached pdf on the server". not surprised that is completely wrong.
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Nov 17, 2017 04:04
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also worth a mention for failed window system replacements: Fresco: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresco_(windowing_system) Y Windows: https://web.archive.org/web/20071004220724/http://www.y-windows.org// fresco basically took the buggy parts of x11 and expanded on them, like news did. it doubled-down on having widgets in-server. y windows went even further and basically specified a server where you could only make "ComboBox" or "Button". i don't think it ever went anywhere. anyway expect a new effortpost on actual gpu's soon rather than bickering about windowe systems
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Nov 17, 2017 04:12
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nbsd being wrong based on only a cursory understanding of the topic? now ive seen everything.
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Nov 17, 2017 05:51
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feedmegin posted:Users might well care about the preferences of Wayland developers, because that's what's likely to replace X11 and for good reasons. Notorious b.s.d. posted:lol if you think X11 will actually be replaced Wayland may well replace X-Windows on Linux but users won’t be able to tell because Wayland entirely repeats its Original Sin, just with compositing as a core feature a real improvement would be a deeply integrated window server and widget set where any application not written against that widget set is told to get with the loving program already, but Unix weenies decided that an aphorism appropriate for a research system, “mechanism not policy,” was actually a core tenet of their platform this is why we can’t have nice things: even if something lovely is replaced, it’s replaced with something equivalently lovely
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Nov 17, 2017 06:58
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Suspicious Dish posted:NeXT's proprietary display system which half-lives on today in spirit in OS X. Was too license-burden to be sold commercially; Apple switched to the FRAND-terms PDF graphics model before going back to a bitmap graphics model because it's more powerful. this isn’t really accurate the Mac OS X 10.0 and later window server is just a window server, drawing happens client side, and that wasn’t changed with the addition of hardware compositing in 10.2 there was no switch to the PDF graphics model because it’s the same as the PostScript graphics model, and nothing ever worked by streaming a PDF to a port: from 10.0 on, graphics have been in-process function calls (CoreGraphics) operating on a bitmap in memory that’s shared with the window server this was in fact the way most NeXT graphics worked too; it was only complicated or repetitive poo poo where people put together parameterized PostScript functions to send to the server and invoke instead of just calling PSmoveto(), PSlineto(), and so on for their drawing (also compositing in the graphics API wasn’t new in 10.0, NeXT had it too; what was new was compositing in the window server itself) and iOS & CoreAnimation don’t substantially change this either, they just provide access to lots of little shared windows (aka layers) rather than just big ones (windows/surfaces)
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Nov 17, 2017 07:13
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