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ProfessorCirno posted:No no, I don't just mean the Shifter. I mean the whole book. Some of the reprinted stuff they actually made worse, too, from the complaints I've seen. Snowball got hit by the nerfbat hard, apparently.
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Nov 17, 2017 01:59
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So they did something right.
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Nov 17, 2017 02:07
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Olesh posted:People give the PF Fighter a lot of poo poo, because it is quintessentially Not A Wizard And Thus Boring, but I'm running a PF game where my players chose to have no arcane caster whatsoever (instead relying largely on UMD). They're really good at murdering poo poo, though, and it turns out murdering monsters to solve problems is a really common theme in Pathfinder. Reading the first 150 pages of this thread or so some years back, it was generally agreed that the Fighter was really good at murdering dudes. It's just that they can't do much outside of that (and a spellcaster can still beat them to the punch by killing dudes without having to reduce their HP to zero)
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Nov 17, 2017 02:32
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all this talk about how much rear end the shifter sucks really makes me want to read it
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Nov 17, 2017 02:56
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Took a look at the class and it is a bit strange that the "Shifter" has less ability to turn into stuff than a regular vanilla Druid. The claws are neat I guess but Druid gets spells while Shifter does not. It is a very weak class except for maybe what is going in in the archetypes like Oozemorph.
Space Skeleton fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Nov 17, 2017 |
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Nov 17, 2017 03:28
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Space Skeleton posted:Took a look at the class and it is a bit strange that the "Shifter" has less ability to turn into stuff than a regular vanilla Druid. The claws are neat I guess but Druid gets spells while Shifter does not. It is a very weak class except for maybe the Oozemorph archetype. ... You mean the Archetype that gets no AC bonus from class features? Has to rely on only base Dexterity for AC? Cannot use magic items, except for the time they are using their daily resource, and maybe not even then if the item requires attuning over a period of a day or more. Cannot talk. Cannot overcome DR. Doesn't get Beast Shape I until 8th level and Beast Shape II until 15th level? Other than possibly Rageshaper the Oozemorph is clearly the weakest Archetype for the class. That said it is super thematic, and discussion about it led me to the Dreamscarred Press's 2016 April Augmented which has a 4 level "Gelatinous Cube" monster class which seems interesting.
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Nov 17, 2017 04:11
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wizard on a water slide posted:all this talk about how much rear end the shifter sucks really makes me want to read it There's nothing to read. That's the general problem with the Shifter. It's not that it's math is screwed up or it has some weird subsystem. It's just...empty. It has nothing where it should have abilities. And the abilities it does have are just kinda weak and lovely. They weren't weirdly over-ambitious and screwed it up. They weren't getting wild and creative and, well, things didn't work out. They were just really, really lazy and overly conservative with their class design.
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Nov 17, 2017 04:32
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To repeat myself from before, the shifter is literally 95% identical to the Feral Hunter archetype, except that it gets noticeably less stuff than the Feral Hunter does.
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Nov 17, 2017 04:42
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Ryuujin posted:... Immunity to crits and precision damage, inability to be flanked, and constant compression at level 1 is a pretty neat place to start from. Start out as a "bucket buddy" your party carries around then multiclass to something else!
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Nov 17, 2017 05:18
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Space Skeleton posted:Immunity to crits and precision damage, inability to be flanked, and constant compression at level 1 is a pretty neat place to start from. Start out as a "bucket buddy" your party carries around then multiclass to something else! Those are vaguely nice things. But don't begin to make up for the other problems. And multiclassing is the exact opposite of what you want to do with the Oozemorph as you will never get rid of the massive penalties that way. As the only time those penalties are ignored, or well at least lessened, is when you are using the Alter Self/Beast Shape stuff which is totally based off Oozemorph levels.
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Nov 17, 2017 05:28
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Space Skeleton posted:Immunity to crits and precision damage, inability to be flanked, and constant compression at level 1 is a pretty neat place to start from. Start out as a "bucket buddy" your party carries around then multiclass to something else! What, after 6th level, when you can finally spend 6x3 hours a day in a non-ooze form?
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Nov 17, 2017 05:28
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Did nobody in Pathfinder ever play a Druid in any other RPG? The archetype of a guy that can turn into other animal forms to switch-hit for different party roles is pretty easy to grasp.
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Nov 17, 2017 05:31
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Ryuujin posted:Those are vaguely nice things. But don't begin to make up for the other problems. And multiclassing is the exact opposite of what you want to do with the Oozemorph as you will never get rid of the massive penalties that way. As the only time those penalties are ignored, or well at least lessened, is when you are using the Alter Self/Beast Shape stuff which is totally based off Oozemorph levels. Syzygy Stardust posted:What, after 6th level, when you can finally spend 6x3 hours a day in a non-ooze form? Their ability to alter self into humanoid form says level, not shifter level. So they keep progressing that even taking levels in other stuff. At least that is how I read it, since wildshape calls out "shifter level" specifically.
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Nov 17, 2017 05:31
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whenever a class feature references level, it's referring to class level unless it explicitly says otherwise like seriously, that is bush league levels of misinterpreting the rules for a favourable outcome Red Metal fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Nov 17, 2017 |
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Nov 17, 2017 05:37
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Red Metal posted:whenever a class feature references level, it's referring to class level unless it explicitly says otherwise Seemed like it was just level to me because wildshape goes out of its way to say Shifter/Druid level while Oozemorph's alter self just says level.  Guess I'm mistaken.
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Nov 17, 2017 05:41
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Remember the creator of Oozemorph, and I think at least one other Shifter Archetype, went out of their way to post how they intended for the character to be useless when not using their Alter Self/Wild Shape ability, and that the Oozemorph literally cannot Climb at all before level 4 in the class. Despite other creatures without limbs being able to climb perfectly fine. Remember the other Archetypes, other than Rageshaper, get an Enhancement bonus to a stat when using an Aspect or constantly depending on the Archetype. Though yes Aspects can only be used for minutes per day. The Oozemorph gets none of these, and does not get any changes to stats from their class until level 8 when they can pick up size bonuses/penalties from taking various forms with Beast Shape I. These Enhancement bonuses of course don't stack with Enhancement bonuses from Magic Items, but the Oozemorph is the only Archetype that cannot use magic items. Remember there is nothing that says the Oozemorph keeps the movement modes of the base race. There is some room for interpretation that the Oozemorph cannot move except when in an Alter Self/Beast Shape form, or until level 4 when it can at least Climb. Remember the Oozemorph cannot talk or interact with anything, and certainly not carry anything, while in the base Oozemorph form which at 1st level will be all but 1 hour of the day. Ryuujin fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Nov 17, 2017 |
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Nov 17, 2017 05:56
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Ryuujin posted:Remember the creator of Oozemorph, and I think at least one other Shifter Archetype, went out of their way to post how they intended for the character to be useless when not using their Alter Self/Wild Shape ability, and that the Oozemorph literally cannot Climb at all before level 4 in the class. Despite other creatures without limbs being able to climb perfectly fine. Hang on, I disagree with some of this. Nothing seems to prevent them from climbing, it's just at level 4 an Oozemorph gains a climb speed in ooze form. Also nowhere does it say they lose their movement speed in ooze form or gain a movement speed when they go to humanoid form. When they do go to humanoid form they should be getting a +2 dex for small or +2 str for medium which isn't much but it's there. They can't use items in their base ooze form but they can use Morphic Weaponry to make limbs to attack with as they schlorp around.
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Nov 17, 2017 06:11
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Space Skeleton posted:Hang on, I disagree with some of this. The creator of the Archetype outright said they cannot climb. The rest of the movement stuff is based off various things but is of course just an interpretation some have made. Okay it does seem Alter Self gives a size bonus to one of two stats. That seems odd if you aren't actually changing sizes but okay. Still not as good as the benefit the other Archetypes get from their Aspects/permanent class features. Also while the duration of the alternate form is longer than the Aspect the base Shifter would have the Shifter can split it theirs up in minute increments which means they could use it for multiple combats from the first level, while the Oozemorph is not going to be able to use the Alter Self buff for more than one fight unless they happen to occur during the same hour. Yes they can use Morphic Weaponry to create fairly pathetic weapons to attack with, though doing more damage than the early level Shifter's Claws but the Shifter's Claws scale in damage, poorly but it is there, and can overcome DR which the Morphic Weaponry cannot. --- Okay going back to the April Augmented I talked about before, it also has a Monk variant called the Mad Monk that looks interesting. Could be cool using the Gelatinous Cube monster class in that same issue. Though the -10 Dexterity would still super hurt the AC and the Mad Monk still uses Dex+Wis for AC but without the scaling bonus from level. Still it gets some other crazy stuff and each skill uses a different stat than it does for normal characters which is kind of hilarious. Anyone seen this April Augmented 2016 stuff before? Does it seem playable?
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Nov 17, 2017 06:30
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Where did the creator say these things, out of curiosity? I don't doubt it at all, I'm just curious and would like to read exactly what they said for myself.
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Nov 17, 2017 06:31
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Its in the Playing an Oozemorph The mega thread on the Paizo forums. Look for Robert Brookes. Specifically it is on the 2nd page of that thread. Though he does go on to say that he intended on the Oozemorph not losing base land speed but only the other forms of movement that rely on physical form. Also Robert Brookes apparently wrote these Archetypes in the book: Elementalist Shifter (shifter) Fiendflesh Shifter (shifter) Oozemorph (shifter) Rageshifter (shifter) Verdant Shifter (shifter) Weretouched (shifter) Commando (gunslinger) Feral Champion (warpriest) Filidh (bard) Water Dancer (monk) Wasteland Meditant (monk) Menhir Guardian (monk) Cultivator (bard) Nature Bonded Magus (magus) Also it sounds like none of the Shifter Archetypes replace or alter the level 20 Shifter feature. And none of the Archetypes can actually make use of it as it is where they get their 5th Aspect and can have all 5 Aspects active at the same time. Also that means this one person made all of the Shifter Archetypes.
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Nov 17, 2017 06:59
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Nature Bonded Magus is one of the most obviously trash archetypes ever printed by Paizo.
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Nov 17, 2017 07:05
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They come up with the Extra Item Slot probably working for the Oozemorph's base form in that thread. That's an interesting idea.
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Nov 17, 2017 07:57
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Space Skeleton posted:They come up with the Extra Item Slot probably working for the Oozemorph's base form in that thread. That's an interesting idea. Yeah but the rest of the archetype is still garbage. Like I really wanted to like the Shifter, but like everyone else has said, Druids and Feral Hunters can do everything better than it. Hell, the oozemorph being terrible is one of the things that pisses me off the most; since I thought it sounded cool when they were talking about them in the preview. 
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Nov 17, 2017 08:25
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 he took it's primary cool feature and made it a disadvantage.Literally everyone who got excited were like oh poo poo yeah I get to be a loving ooze that's quote:The ooze form isn't a benefit, it's effectively a "bad thing" that the oozemorph manages to make the best of. Paizo is really good at design, guys EDIT: This dude is legitimately SKR levels of being terrible at design holy poo poo.
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Nov 17, 2017 08:34
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You must be punished for desiring to play anything that wasn't explicitly described in the the Fellowship or a very mainstream Marvel comic.
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Nov 17, 2017 08:56
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ProfessorCirno posted:
I don't follow what SKR is.
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Nov 17, 2017 10:24
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dont even fink about it posted:I don't follow what SKR is. Sean K Reynolds was a designer for D&D 3e, and later for Paizo, who's kinda sorta infamous for some of the worst d20-era design decisions across those game-lines.
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Nov 17, 2017 10:27
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gradenko_2000 posted:Sean K Reynolds was a designer for D&D 3e, and later for Paizo, who's kinda sorta infamous for some of the worst d20-era design decisions across those game-lines. Ah yeah when I got up and walked around to do something I remembered. Is there a good Reynolds hate-post I can read anywhere? (I'll look).
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Nov 17, 2017 10:29
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dont even fink about it posted:Is there a good Reynolds hate-post I can read anywhere? (I'll look). http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=53782&view=next
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Nov 17, 2017 10:46
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He literally went to his own social media to whine about me personally twice. Once during the Ultimate Combat playtest when I pushed him on why a cleric should be able to replace a fighter and not vice versa (SKR plays clerics), and again when I pushed what the actual mechanical point of trap options were.
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Nov 17, 2017 11:52
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Do you happen to have screenshots. I've heard the story before but never saw his actual whining.
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Nov 17, 2017 12:19
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I mean this is poo poo from more then five years ago. Even if I did have screenshots, they'd probably have been lost by now anyways. I just find it funny that actually just questioning him was enough to piss him off.
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Nov 17, 2017 12:47
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I gotcha. I know I was banned from the Paizo forum for arguing with him on a rules point, but that whole convo was purged along with most of the thread.
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Nov 17, 2017 13:00
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Terrible Opinions posted:I gotcha. I know I was banned from the Paizo forum for arguing with him on a rules point, but that whole convo was purged along with most of the thread.
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Nov 17, 2017 13:02
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MadScientistWorking posted:Considering how hard it is to get banned on that forum what the hell happened? They’ve actually handed out a lot of bans in recent months. I got one for joking about Starfinder in the subscriber window before the official release. As seen with the “no shifter talk in the UW product thread” mandate, they’re really sensitive about criticism that might hurt sales. It’s been interesting trying to figure out which old Paizo critics have disappeared and are the new Shifter critics I never heard of before. Syzygy Stardust fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Nov 17, 2017 |
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Nov 17, 2017 13:51
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MadScientistWorking posted:Considering how hard it is to get banned on that forum what the hell happened? I think the last straw was saying that magic items that are just X spell Y number of times per day are a waste of page space and should never be put in any product.
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Nov 17, 2017 14:27
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We know they have better item creation rules they use internally; it would be really nice if they would share them. Say in a Ultimate Equipment 2?
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Nov 17, 2017 17:34
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Aaaand the UW product thread gets locked again and negative comments vanished into the aether. I wonder if Paizo management learns anything from these episodes, the ACG dumpster fire led to some better editing for a while, but either Starfinder sapped too many resources or their adrift again.
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Nov 17, 2017 19:38
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It's legit incredible (and horrifying, and depression, and) how many of the 5 star reviews directly refer to the one star reviews. TRUFANS are literally throwing in fake reviews to try to save their favored company's reputation over one lovely book.
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Nov 17, 2017 21:22
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Overall non spoiler question for people playing/running Strange Aeons. Did you bother or tell your players to bother with a back story for your characters? It seems the AP was more made for amnesiacs that learn their backstory engineered from the AP. Learning about their characters past from interacting with the AP.
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Nov 18, 2017 02:36
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