|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 12:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 12:32 |
|
|
Grevling posted:The magician would actually draw things on the papyrus. Sometimes it's a recognizable figure like Set or that dwarf fertility god I forget the name of, other times it's anyone's guess. Bes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 13:56
|
|
|
Did the manipluar legion have overstrength "oblique" maniples on one flank?
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 14:13
|
|
|
I'm not sure what you mean. The first cohort was typically double size, assuming a legion at listed strength (which is believed to have been rare, they were usually understrength to some degree). The specific deployments of units on the field are a whole rabbit hole you can go down. An intelligent commander would have protected their flanks somehow. It's believed auxilia units were often on the flanks. I remember reading about commanders considered incompetent because they just deployed in the standard fashion in every situation instead of taking into account terrain and their opponents.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 14:20
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:I'm not sure what you mean. The first cohort was typically double size, assuming a legion at listed strength (which is believed to have been rare, they were usually understrength to some degree). The specific deployments of units on the field are a whole rabbit hole you can go down. An intelligent commander would have protected their flanks somehow. It's believed auxilia units were often on the flanks. I remember reading about commanders considered incompetent because they just deployed in the standard fashion in every situation instead of taking into account terrain and their opponents. Even back in the days of the triplex acies, there are countless stories of generals deploying in alternate formats. Its never couched in some "oh my god he used TWO lines!!!" thing either, just that it was different than the default. It's pretty clear the triplex was the standard, and then you altered it based on terrain, army strength, etc. So yeah if the enemy shows up and you are worried about a flank, you divert a maniple or 2 over there to cover it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 15:45
|
|
|
the entire point of the maniple system was flexibility; the ability to easily alter formation even in the middle of battle to put unexpected pressure on the enemy or shore up a weak point was a huge part of the roman military advantage over all of their neighbors during the republic and early empire. just using the standard formation in all situations is definitely incompetent - at that point you might as well just be commanding a phalanx.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 15:57
|
|
|
If you want a specific argument to sperg on: the ancient sources mention that gaps would be left in the deployment, but do not specify what, exactly, this means. There are many rage-filled pages trying to justify different points of view on it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 16:08
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:If you want a specific argument to sperg on: the ancient sources mention that gaps would be left in the deployment, but do not specify what, exactly, this means. There are many rage-filled pages trying to justify different points of view on it. I feel like the simplest explanation is they closed ranks to fight, and the reserve lines kept gaps for the other lines to withdraw through before they in turn charged. Otherwise you either have maniples knowingly allowing themselves to get flanked. That may work if it's what the soldiers expect and poo poo but man that seems like it gets more people killed than is worth it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 16:16
|
|
|
Trap sprung. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 16:17
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:Trap sprung. Do you really think I'm going to miss a chance to sperg out on legion poo poo? come on son.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 17:22
|
|
|
WoodrowSkillson posted:I feel like the simplest explanation is they closed ranks to fight, and the reserve lines kept gaps for the other lines to withdraw through before they in turn charged. I'm having trouble picturing this, do you meansomething like this (skip to 1:00, timestamps dont work on my phone)?
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 17:46
|
|
|
Don Gato posted:I'm having trouble picturing this, do you meansomething like this (skip to 1:00, timestamps dont work on my phone)? That's a post-Marian legion. Marius got rid of the maniple.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 18:04
|
|
|
Someone once got mad at me for saying pike and shot armies sometimes deployed in a checkerboard formation because Roman maniples didn't really form up that way. Took him a minute to realize how badly he'd got some wires crossed. Roman maniples triggering history nerds for 2000 years.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Roman maniples triggering history nerds for 2000 years. You might even say manipulating them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 18:50
|
|
|
Don Gato posted:I'm having trouble picturing this, do you meansomething like this (skip to 1:00, timestamps dont work on my phone)? No. The Triplex Acies is the way the classical roman legions deployed prior to the Marian reforms.  from https://www.realmofhistory.com/2016/06/20/animation-roman-maniple-warfare-superb-visual/ The argument is how did this deployment actually work when the fighting started. The velities are skirmishers that would withdraw behind the hastati when the enemy closed. If the first line of hastati stay separated, they will be flanked by enemy soldiers that just walk through the gaps and attack on the sides/rear of the maniple. Yes, the next line is there and can attack them, but how many dudes get stabbed in the meantime?
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 22:31
|
|
|
This is just me pulling poo poo out of my rear end because I know nothing about ancient tactics, but jsut sitting here looking at that picture what I would personally do is let the skirmishers fall back thorugh the open order of the lines, push the principes into the gaps in the hastati's lines (they're already lined up for that anyways - just need to move forward in the wake of the skirmishers), and then hang on to the better armed and equipped triarii for doing poo poo like flanking the enemy line. Basically use them as a reserve force.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 22:52
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:This is just me pulling poo poo out of my rear end because I know nothing about ancient tactics, but jsut sitting here looking at that picture what I would personally do is let the skirmishers fall back thorugh the open order of the lines, push the principes into the gaps in the hastati's lines (they're already lined up for that anyways - just need to move forward in the wake of the skirmishers), and then hang on to the better armed and equipped triarii for doing poo poo like flanking the enemy line. Basically use them as a reserve force. This is not how it is described though. It is mentioned that the Hastati fight first. They are the youngest and most inexperienced, but against some roman enemies they can be enough to win. If they start to falter, they are relived by the Principes, and then the Principes fight. If the Principes cannot break the enemy, then they are relived by the Trarii, and then the Trarii fight while the others regroup. Later Marius does away with the distinctions and the default deployment is 2 lines of similarly equipped soldiers, though still organized in battlefield units called cohorts instead of maniples, but functionally the same idea. What is unknown is the actual mechanism of how this played out. For example, maybe the gap is there to facilitate the Principes charge once the Hastati have been fighting, but then how do the Hastati withdraw?
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 23:04
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:Empirical evidence: Wallenstein probably isn't still alive
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 23:55
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:How do you go from witchcraft not being real to being super real and super worrying?
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 23:56
|
|
|
Epicurius posted:It's important to distinguish magic and witchcraft in the early modern mind, too. Magic was the use of occult/secret methods to influence the natural world. You might know an incantation that will prevent rats from getting in your grain. You might know about a herb that can cause an abortion/miscarriage. You might know how to study the stars to determine why someone is sick. You might know how to make a potion to settle somebody's stomach. You might know a prayer or incantation that will make it easier for a woman in labor. You might know how to make a charm that will help protect a house against sickness. This is all called "natural magic", and it's something that's passed down from teacher to student, father to son, mother to daughter. This is medieval magic, and the attitude of the Catholic Church varied from grudging acceptance to roll your eyes skepticism.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2017 23:58
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:Yes. This is also the difference between the kind of astrology Wallenstein and the Emperor do (more or less OK) and serving the Devil. This is true, although people could be accused of evil magic without witchcraft. Part of the fall of the Duke of Clarence involved Dr. John Stacey, one of Clarence's retainers, tried and executed for using astrology to plot the death of King Edward IV, and John of Nottingham, a necromancer, was executed for using wax figures to kill Richard de Lowe and trying to kill Edward II and the Despensers. (There was a kind of a funny aftermath of that. Hugh Despenser wrote to the pope to see if he could get some blessing against magical attack, and the pope basically wrote him back saying basically, "If you repent of your sins, make restitution to the people you hurt and stop being so rotten, maybe people will stop trying to kill you.") Edited to correct...John of Nottingham actually died in prison before he was tried. The people who hired him were found not guilty for lack of evidence. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Nov 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 00:41
|
|
|
What may be of note is that the theological objections the medieval church had to the possibility of witchcraft were similar to those against large scale contemporary heresies. Lot of dualisms, bogomilism...
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 01:32
|
|
|
It must also be remembered that a lot of witchcraft accusations started with personal disputes and disagreements, escalating into tragedy. The people who administered trials and examinations may have had some religious underpinning for it, but the initial accusations were less "Goodwife Perkins flew to the Sabbat and had bottomless steak fries with the Devil" and more "I didn't give some butter to Goodwife Perkins and four days later my goat died." Whether there were any religious reasonings behind a witch trial would likely vary hugely depending on the time, place, and inclinations of the examiners. There was a difference between someone educated in Church law and actual legal proceedings as opposed to some idiot who got his hands on a copy of the Malleus Maleficarum, the legal advice of which was questionable and the demonology unorthodox. I think that Norman Cohn's 'Europe's Inner Demons' is a good examination of how social delusion and hysteria chose witches as the target for that time period, much like earlier ones had targeted Jews and lepers. Y'alls are making me want to go digging for my books sooooo goddamned badly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 04:59
|
|
|
Or there was that woman who was having an affair with her employer, and after they broke up she threatened to reveal it, so he accused her of witchcraft.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 05:19
|
|
|
That's an explanation in want of an explanation. The question is why at a particular time witchcraft was used to mediate social conflicts; social conflicts are a universal.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 05:19
|
|
|
I had read something, and unfortunatrly, I forget where, that looked at the satanic panic and the McMartin preschool case, and it was interesting how a lot of the accusations in the case mimicked the accusations made at Salem. There werected even statements that the accused flew through the air.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 05:29
|
|
|
Thwomp posted:Ask is about Roman/ancient history: This I will assert with no evidence This is a really good thread title imp ok see yas
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 05:31
|
|
|
Disinterested posted:That's an explanation in want of an explanation. The question is why at a particular time witchcraft was used to mediate social conflicts; social conflicts are a universal. It was the trendy thing to do, probably.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 05:52
|
|
|
Disinterested posted:That's an explanation in want of an explanation. The question is why at a particular time witchcraft was used to mediate social conflicts; social conflicts are a universal. I think you'll find that for three seconds in June 1889 there was no social conflict in the western half of Luxembourg.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 06:10
|
|
|
homullus posted:You might even say manipulating them. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 06:38
|
|
|
Epicurius posted:I had read something, and unfortunatrly, I forget where, that looked at the satanic panic and the McMartin preschool case, and it was interesting how a lot of the accusations in the case mimicked the accusations made at Salem. There werected even statements that the accused flew through the air. The SRA hysteria has a few direct parallels, I absolutely agree. And it's one of those things that seems impossible to us today, but people actually went to jail because they were accused of flushing live children down the toilet into secret rooms where they witnessed people killing elephants and then drinking their blood. It is my opinion that the SRA hysteria cast a hugely long and dark shadow on the modern pagan revival which it's still under, a little bit.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 12:30
|
|
|
Who was the old as gently caress Senate commander in early episodes of HBOs rome?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 13:32
|
|
|
Baron Porkface posted:Who was the old as gently caress Senate commander in early episodes of HBOs rome? Been ages since I saw that, but Cato the Younger I guess (who irl was barely 50 at the time).
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 13:33
|
|
|
Other roman bullshit i am impressed by: they like to offer anatomically correct representations of human viscera to temples in response to medical issues representing the area of concern. Little effigies of female pubic guts left at a temple in an effort to avoid miscarriages for example.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 13:39
|
|
|
"Gods, I am going to leave this disgusting mess on your altar until you stop punishing me and my family with horrendous medical conditions."
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 13:56
|
|
|
Ras Het posted:Been ages since I saw that, but Cato the Younger I guess (who irl was barely 50 at the time). It was a weird casting choice. The actor playing Cato was about 10 years older than the character he played. Avewise, it would have made more sense to switch the actors playing Cicero (who was around the same age as Pompey), and Cato (who was about 5 years younger than Caesar).
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 14:03
|
|
|
Phobophilia posted:"Gods, I am going to leave this disgusting mess on your altar until you stop punishing me and my family with horrendous medical conditions." "Look maybe you immortals dont know or care what a regular joe's set of balls looks like, but I need help with mine and maybe you need a little reminder of what mine are like, don't take this the wrong way. Just in case you want to rearrange my insides, this is how they are supposed to look. You can keep the sculpture iunno"
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 14:08
|
|
|
There's a story from the bible. The Philistines steal the ark of the covenant, and God punishes them with a plague of mice and hemorrhoids. So they give the ark back to the Israelites along with little golden figurines of mice and hemorrhoids.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 14:40
|
|
|
Ras Het posted:Been ages since I saw that, but Cato the Younger I guess (who irl was barely 50 at the time). No the guy who was a generation older than Cato and sounded like he has throat cancer. The parlementarian who knew all the rules. Edit: the first speaking line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLjgrFciJhE
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 17:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 12:32 |
|
|
Baron Porkface posted:No the guy who was a generation older than Cato and sounded like he has throat cancer. The parlementarian who knew all the rules. The actor is the late John Boswall, who did indeed have throat cancer (he was also in one of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies). I don't believe the character ever got a name and he is not strongly analogous to any historical figure I can think of. His role as procedural supervisor of senate meetings is sort of like the semi-official role held by a princeps senatus; the princeps senatus at the time-frame of the show was Publius Servilius Vatia Isauricus, who was definitely a pretty old man by that point, but I don't know that there is anything about him that inspired the character in the show.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2017 17:28
|
|