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FlamingLiberal posted:https://twitter.com/AP/status/931686844315656193 What, you need more than one side for peace? That's very alarming...
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Nov 18, 2017 04:22
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*faaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrtttttttt* https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/how-a-saudi-israeli-alliance-could-benefit-the-palestinians/546248 quote:How a Saudi-Israeli Alliance Could Benefit the Palestinians
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Nov 18, 2017 11:27
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Lucky number 6 https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom/status/932121343788797952
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Nov 19, 2017 06:45
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The man has publically admitted to committing the crimes he is accused of in that particular investigation, in front of the entire Knesset he said there's nothing wrong with accepting gifts from friends while the truth is that Israeli law forbids any public servant from receiving any gifts without reporting them to the state comptroller's office and reimbursing the state treasury for their monetary value. But somehow this doesn't matter.
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Nov 19, 2017 07:04
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I sometimes wonder whether the issues discussed in this thread could have been avoided if the victorious allied powers (principally the Soviets) had awarded East Prussia as a Jewish homeland for the displaced and unwelcome (if the post war pogroms in Poland, Hungary and Romania are heeded) Ashkenazi/Yiddish Jewish diaspora in Europe, with Konigsberg/Kaliningrad as its capital. Of course, there would still have been some Jews in Palestine, but it would have been easier for Britain to maintain the embargo of Jewish immigration and may have prevented the radicalisation of the Irgun and Haganah elements. In that event, the partition may have worked, or it might even have been expedient to award the entire Mandate to Jordan. Additionally, it is unlikely that the Mirazhim would have been ethnically cleansed from other Arab countries. Of course, the East Prussian Jewish state would probably have needed to endure 45 years as a Soviet communist satellite, so it is swings and roundabouts I guess. Could the East Prussian option be a viable Ashkenazi stopgap in the future, should European Jews be required to leave Israel/Palestine in the event of conquest or demographic collapse? Perhaps the Poles could be persuaded? Of course, there is also the so called Jewish Autonomous Oblast in eastern Siberia, centered on Birobidzhan. Of course, it was established by Stalin for rather dubious and cynical reasons. However, today it is still rather sparsely populated and could perhaps serve as an ersatz homeland for European Jews in a pinch. Indeed, many of the Ashkenazi Jews in Israel are of recently Russian heritage with the attendant cultural and linguistic convenience. Of course, the Russian Federation would need convincing. However, a large influx of educated and skilled Jewish immigrants (many Russian speakers amongst them) would be an invaluable boon to the development of Russia's Siberian economy. Lord_Adonis fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 04:07
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Its useless and probably dangerous to delve into these ancient what-ifs. If you're rewriting history this much, you might as well stop the Holocaust and prevent mass immigration in the first place (which would also be a pointless endeavor)
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Nov 20, 2017 04:14
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Nebalebadingdong posted:Its useless and probably dangerous to delve into these ancient what-ifs. If you're rewriting history this much, you might as well stop the Holocaust and prevent mass immigration in the first place (which would also be a pointless endeavor) The creation of an East Prussian Ashkenazi Jewish state presupposes the Holocaust. The Soviets controlled the territory and expelled the German population, which could have been handed to Jewish refugees, instead of being split between the Soviet Union and Poland.
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Nov 20, 2017 04:22
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I'm naive, but I don't really see why "the Jews" needed to move anywhere, let alone have their own state.
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Nov 20, 2017 04:53
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Lord_Adonis posted:The creation of an East Prussian Ashkenazi Jewish state presupposes the Holocaust. The Soviets controlled the territory and expelled the German population, which could have been handed to Jewish refugees, instead of being split between the Soviet Union and Poland. quote:In 1941 Lord Moyne suggested to David Ben-Gurion that Jewish refugees could be resettled in East Prussia after Germany was defeated and the area's German inhabitants were expelled. Ben-Gurion responded that "the only way to get Jews to go [to East Prussia] would be with machine guns."[23] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state
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Nov 20, 2017 04:56
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starkebn posted:I'm naive, but I don't really see why "the Jews" needed to move anywhere, let alone have their own state. The holocaust and the centuries and centuries of brutality leading up to it were a big factor I think.
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Nov 20, 2017 06:39
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Do the Romani get the same deal? Do those who are homosexual? Do those with physical and/or mental disabilities? They were all getting a pretty raw deal during the holocaust.
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Nov 20, 2017 10:09
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starkebn posted:Do the Romani get the same deal? Do those who are homosexual? Do those with physical and/or mental disabilities? It's a moot point. The Jews have a country now.
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Nov 20, 2017 13:08
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Is your point that you don't think there should be a romani country either? Or that it's unfair that only jews got a country?
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Nov 20, 2017 19:00
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Zionism was born out of the same ruthless nationalist spirit that all the other dumb European nationalist political movements were born out of, and the very idea would be ridiculous today. I think that's essentially what he's trying to say. On the other hand Alhazred is right and it's a moot point so whatever.
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Nov 20, 2017 19:16
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The Europeans also owns all of the Americas but that's life I guess, no point in making a point out if it.
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Nov 20, 2017 19:17
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It's only a point because someone was asking why they didn't get to move into Prussia, it's all moot, yes. The reason they got to take over Palestine is that it had been a goal since year zero and in the twentieth century England didn't give a poo poo if they colonised once again and just wanted to placate the Jewish. But there's no "good" reason that it happened at all.
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Nov 20, 2017 22:07
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starkebn posted:it had been a goal since year zero um
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Nov 20, 2017 22:16
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it is obvious that none of you know a single thing about israel, or jewish history, or zionism, or really anything - including romani history, evidenced by the fact that you seem to think it's the jews' fault they didn't get their own country after the holocaust, and that you think that there is only one single huge romani group that can be resettled together in a single place and they'll all be happy. leaving aside the fact that it was apparently the responsibility of the jews to make sure every other group targeted by hitler also got their own country, do you even know where the romani people came from? i know asking someone to at least read a wikipedia page before using a near-total genocide as cheap emotional leverage is very unfair, so please don't cry, i'll answer the question for you. they come from about five different places, and the majority are from what is now half india and half pakistan. in the 40s/50s, that area was slightly contested land. as we all know, we jews are ruthless scheming subhumans, but it was beyond even our excellent business skills to waltz into north india when it was at its most politically turbulent point in many years and negotiate a nation-sized piece of land to be given to a stateless people that the indians thought of as european if they knew they existed at all. and that, friends, is why the jews did not give the romani people their own country when we got ours. i'm very sorry, it's just another entry in our long list of crimes against humanity.
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Nov 21, 2017 01:37
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and apparently we were supposed to somehow organise a country for gay people while we were at it, and presumably another country just for people with disabilities, and another country for the jesuits, and one for the communists. i understand that if we didn't want to have the burden of founding all these countries for all these people, then we shouldn't have provoked hitler into trying to wipe us and them from the face of the earth
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Nov 21, 2017 01:40
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incidentally the romani people don't want their own country and they never have, they just want to stop being murdered and be given the opportunity to make a living while practicing their own culture in the countries that they currently live in. but i understand that if reading wikipedia is too much work for you, it would be unbearably confronting to actually directly talk to one of these mythical dancing fairy creatures whose tragedy you're perfectly happy to exploit for your extremely stupid online argument
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Nov 21, 2017 01:43
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i take this personally because i often talk to other jews who hate having the romani victims mentioned in discussions of the holocaust. they get angry; they insist that the holocaust was a jewish tragedy and that nobody else has a right to be recognised. clearly this is unacceptable. but it's coming from somewhere. where is it coming from? i'll tell you where - it comes from a lifetime of dumbass goys like the ones that populate this thread marching up to jewish people who lost their entire extended family in the camps and can be forgiven for being a little sensitive and going HURR DURR WHAT ABOUT THE ROMA. i've seen that happen too. it really is that blunt. goys will just march up to a jewish person on the street and lay into them about not caring about this other group that died. and it is absolutely not compassion or a sense of justice that makes the goys behave this way, because we know and they know and the romani people know that they don't actually give a poo poo, it's just mindless devil's advocacy mixed with anti-semitism and this bizarre instinct to relentlessly poo poo on someone else's tragedy just to make them angry. but the thing is that the dumbass goys don't end up getting any kickback from this behaviour - no consequences, they get to go on their way feeling really good about themselves for making a dude in a yarmulke lose his poo poo in public because apparently that's going to bring justice for the palestinians. we suffer for it emotionally, but you know who in the end really suffers for it? the romani people suffer for it. they suffer because the goys play these bizarre psychological mind games with jewish people and they use romani deaths against us as a weapon - and unlike the palestinians we have zero responsibility for romani persecution, that was all hitler, the jewish community had nothing to do with it - and because we are human beings, all that rage that they stir up has to go somewhere, and it ends up being directed at the easiest possible target, and you end up with sweet little old ladies making a scene at a holocaust museum because the guide mentioned that seven hundred thousand roma also died and accidentally triggered their years of pent-up hurt and frustration that they now unconsciously associate with the roma thanks to self-obsessed goys and their complete lack of social sensitivity
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Nov 21, 2017 02:07
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There, there, Avs. Here's a beautiful cock to soothe you. He stands proudly on top of a fence, as a symbol of overcoming divisions and hatred.
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Nov 21, 2017 02:21
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noyes posted:i take this personally because i often talk to other jews who hate having the romani victims mentioned in discussions of the holocaust. they get angry; they insist that the holocaust was a jewish tragedy and that nobody else has a right to be recognised. clearly this is unacceptable. but it's coming from somewhere. where is it coming from? i'll tell you where - it comes from a lifetime of dumbass goys like the ones that populate this thread marching up to jewish people who lost their entire extended family in the camps and can be forgiven for being a little sensitive and going HURR DURR WHAT ABOUT THE ROMA. i've seen that happen too. it really is that blunt. goys will just march up to a jewish person on the street and lay into them about not caring about this other group that died. and it is absolutely not compassion or a sense of justice that makes the goys behave this way, because we know and they know and the romani people know that they don't actually give a poo poo, it's just mindless devil's advocacy mixed with anti-semitism and this bizarre instinct to relentlessly poo poo on someone else's tragedy just to make them angry. but the thing is that the dumbass goys don't end up getting any kickback from this behaviour - no consequences, they get to go on their way feeling really good about themselves for making a dude in a yarmulke lose his poo poo in public because apparently that's going to bring justice for the palestinians. we suffer for it emotionally, but you know who in the end really suffers for it? the romani people suffer for it. they suffer because the goys play these bizarre psychological mind games with jewish people and they use romani deaths against us as a weapon - and unlike the palestinians we have zero responsibility for romani persecution, that was all hitler, the jewish community had nothing to do with it - and because we are human beings, all that rage that they stir up has to go somewhere, and it ends up being directed at the easiest possible target, and you end up with sweet little old ladies making a scene at a holocaust museum because the guide mentioned that seven hundred thousand roma also died and accidentally triggered their years of pent-up hurt and frustration that they now unconsciously associate with the roma thanks to self-obsessed goys and their complete lack of social sensitivity actually, those old ladies are just racists. sorry.
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Nov 21, 2017 02:34
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A lot of words, but you've completely missed my point. The Jewish people didn't "deserve" their own country the same way the other people affected by the holocaust didn't. The way Palestinians are supposed to concede to Israel is complete bullshit. The situation as it stands is what it is, but the way that Israel refuses to accept people of other faiths have human rights because they "deserve" a Jewish state is pure colonialism, at best.
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Nov 21, 2017 03:32
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As fun as this attempt to solve the I/P conflict via time machine might be, let's come back to the horrors and absurdity of the present. As you may or may not know, the spokesman for Breaking the Silence, Dean Issacharoff, claimed to have taken part in beating a Palestinians. He is but one of many members and people interviewed by the organization who have testified to witnessing or being involved in abuse of Palestinians. But the Justice Minister, Ayelet Shaked, decided that enough is enough, and she would call his bluff: an investigation was started into his claim. His response was to cooperate and hope that the investigation will expose the IDF's practices. Except the allegations were dismissed. The Justice Department claims that other witnesses, including the Palestinian allegedly beaten up, do not corroborate his claims, the Palestinian in question insisting that he was not beaten up. This created a whole media circus charging Breaking the Silence with making up abuse to tarnish Israel's image. Issacharoff, not to be outdone, found an officer who says he witnessed this abuse, and claims that the Palestinian abused was someone else - they also claim to have a video of the incident, collected by B’Tselem. Meanwhile, Haaretz interviewed the Palestinian questioned by the Israeli authorities, and he says that he was abused, but by Border Police, not by a Nahal soldier, which Issacharoff was. It is remarkably difficult for this person to get indicted for a crime he is confessing to, and actively gathering evidence for. Keep in mind that Israel has at most a pale shadow of the Fifth Amendment as far as self-incrimination is concerned, especially in national security cases, with prisoners (particularly Palestinians, although a notable Jew or two have undergone the same treatment) held for weeks without lawyers and under police and Shin Bet torture, with their confessions taken as holy writ, rarely contested by the courts. Feeling  ? You're not the only one!
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Nov 21, 2017 04:07
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fool_of_sound posted:You’ve literally said in this thread that a Palestinian right of return and expulsion of Israeli settlers in the West Bank is genocidal. I’m phone posting now, but if you deny this I’ll go pull quotes later. Go ahead because I did not, even though people with poor reading comprehension thought I was talking about the West Bank when I was talking about Israel. Despite explicitly referring to Israel and not the West Bank, and that point being blatantly obvious from context. quote:A peace deal that is effectively a legitimized occupation will not in fact result in peace. Rejection of your demands would not constitute "legitimized occupation." The fact is that you are far outside of the norms accepted by the international consensus. Leave most of the West Bank, trade the rest for some of Israel, split Jerusalem. Any proposed solution outside of that framework is doomed to failure, and due to the maintenance of the status quo, constitutes direct malice towards Palestinians. Nebalebadingdong posted:The only thing in this blurb that's relevant is your declaration that accepting refugees isn't politically viable or logistically feasible. The rest is a smoke screen. Stop it. Thanks for rejecting civil rights for millions of people as a "smoke screen." Preferring indefinite occupation and profound suffering for millions of Palestinians over a peace deal sure seems unfeasible to me.
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Nov 21, 2017 05:26
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well at least this time when Avshalom broke character they didn't call for anyone's death
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Nov 21, 2017 11:56
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idiot. the woman who loves ariel sharon's restless ghost is the same woman sneaking into your tent with the dagger in her hand. love the righteous and kill the unrighteous - have no mercy for the wicked, especially not donald j trump (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 21, 2017 12:44
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Actually, you are a Trump Lover.
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Nov 21, 2017 12:48
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Kim Jong Il posted:Thanks for rejecting civil rights for millions of people as a "smoke screen." Preferring indefinite occupation and profound suffering for millions of Palestinians over a peace deal sure seems unfeasible to me. It is a smoke screen because if your goal wasn't to keep out refugees, you would engage with a separate proposal of their repatriation. Instead you do... whatever this is. It's cowardly and you need to stop it.
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Nov 21, 2017 12:54
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Absurd Alhazred posted:As fun as this attempt to solve the I/P conflict via time machine might be, let's come back to the horrors and absurdity of the present. I am not necessarily talking through a Time Machine. I admit that the East Prussian option is probably lost to European/Ashkenazi Jews, as I doubt that the Poles and Russians could be convinced to cede East Prussia and Kaliningrad now, even if those Jews were newly expelled from a new Palestinian state encompassing the entirety of present day Israel. However, I did mention the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia/Eastern Siberia. If millions of Ashkenazi Jews do become refugees in the future, the Russians may be persuaded to open the region to Jewish immigration as they would stand to benefit from millions of educated, skilled immigrants, of whom a significant number can still communicate in Russian to varying abilities, and could greatly develop the East SIberian economy. The location of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast should also assuage the consequences of any latent anti-Semitism in the Russian government, as it is far from the centre of political power, and thus non-threatening. This would not require a time machine.
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Nov 21, 2017 13:00
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Lord_Adonis posted:I am not necessarily talking through a Time Machine. I admit that the East Prussian option is probably lost to European/Ashkenazi Jews, as I doubt that the Poles and Russians could be convinced to cede East Prussia and Kaliningrad now, even if those Jews were newly expelled from a new Palestinian state encompassing the entirety of present day Israel. However, I did mention the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia/Eastern Siberia. If millions of Ashkenazi Jews do become refugees in the future, the Russians may be persuaded to open the region to Jewish immigration as they would stand to benefit from millions of educated, skilled immigrants, of whom a significant number can still communicate in Russian to varying abilities, and could greatly develop the East SIberian economy. The location of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast should also assuage the consequences of any latent anti-Semitism in the Russian government, as it is far from the centre of political power, and thus non-threatening. This would not require a time machine. Maybe you should keep your fantasies about millions of Jewish refugees to yourself. 
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Nov 21, 2017 13:42
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Maybe you should keep your fantasies about millions of Jewish refugees to yourself. I would not call it a fantasy. I would rather imagine a workable two-state or single-state solution that can accommodate the interests of Jews and Palestinians alike within the same nation. However, what I have read here does not fill me with hope at the viability of either prospect. I don't want Israeli Jews to become refugees, but if that happens, some kind of escape conduit would be a good idea. As it happens, I am considering a number of opportunities for work and relocation in Russian Siberia myself, as a Brexit 'refugee'.
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Nov 21, 2017 13:59
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Lord_Adonis posted:I would not call it a fantasy. I would rather imagine a workable two-state or single-state solution that can accommodate the interests of Jews and Palestinians alike within the same nation. However, what I have read here does not fill me with hope at the viability of either prospect. I don't want Israeli Jews to become refugees, but if that happens, some kind of escape conduit would be a good idea. As it happens, I am considering a number of opportunities for work and relocation in Russian Siberia myself, as a Brexit 'refugee'. Who is going to disarm millions of Jews (about half of which are not Ashkenazi) and kick them off to Europe, of all places? It just seems an extremely weird eventuality to "plan" for. Looking at your rapsheet, you might want to do a long hard thing about why you think of these things as problems to solve and why you're so excited about reviving solutions that have already failed.
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Nov 21, 2017 14:03
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Lord Adonis has a population transfer fetish. He has suggested splitting the USA into ethnic homelands and I believe he suggested splitting Britain on ideological lines. Shake your head sadly and move along.
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Nov 21, 2017 22:34
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Absurd Alhazred posted:As fun as this attempt to solve the I/P conflict via time machine might be, let's come back to the horrors and absurdity of the present. Mostly just feeling really sad  Thanks for updating this thread with stuff like this tho. I wish there was a thread strictly and specifically for analysis of current events
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Nov 21, 2017 22:41
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Nebalebadingdong posted:I wish there was a thread strictly and specifically for analysis of current events Nothings really happened since 2014. Have the Palestinian militants been broken or are they just reloading?
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Nov 22, 2017 00:47
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Pantsbird posted:Nothings really happened since 2014. Have the Palestinian militants been broken or are they just reloading? Tons of things have happened internally, it's just that not a lot of it seems to be as fascinating as relitigating the foundations of Zionism/going back and forth with Kim Jong Il about how racist/not racist he is. As for the Palestinians, biggest thing that happened was Israel discovering and bombing an Islamic Jihad tunnel from Gaza a few weeks ago, deliberately trapping people in there and trying to hold their bodies hostage in exchange for the bodies IJ/Hamas are holding since 2014. Also the PLO and Hamas have reconciled again, who knows if that'll hold.
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Nov 22, 2017 01:32
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Also the PLO and Hamas have reconciled again well, I mean, it is Tuesday
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Nov 22, 2017 01:36
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The first ever Haredi Israeli minister resigned today, in protest of rail work being performed on the Sabbath. The party will remain in the coalition, however.
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Nov 26, 2017 09:59
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