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IronicDongz posted:I don't do extended That would be why you don't use Cancellation for anything else then! It's also saved my rear end more than once on TRJ for clearing corrosion stacks in a pinch.
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Nov 19, 2017 03:01
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Cancellation doesn't clear corrosion though. Corrosion can't be cleared by ANYTHING other than time.
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Nov 19, 2017 03:04
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What, did they disable that? I've used it at least twice for exactly that to get through TRJ in .20. e: Possible it was on trunk, thinking about it. I don't remember how far along I started playing .21 trunk instead of release .20. But I distinctly remember doing it on several occasions. Toadsmash fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Nov 19, 2017 |
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Nov 19, 2017 03:50
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according to this commit from 2016 corrosion is dispellable and i don't see any commits since that state anything about changing it, but i've legit never tried it
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Nov 19, 2017 04:38
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IronicDongz posted:I don't do extended Proud of you for not giving in to peer pressure. Remember: WINNERS DONT DO TOMB
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Nov 19, 2017 04:41
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tote up a bags posted:Proud of you for not giving in to peer pressure. Tomb should basically be replaced with a dungeon exit that loses you the game and turns you into a ghost. It does that now anyway
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Nov 19, 2017 05:07
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Tomb is perfectly doable as long as you go in with a hard plan for how you're going to handle it. It's just loving terrible that compared to pretty much everything else in the game, your ability to improvise solutions on the fly if you didn't already specifically account for it in your build is just about zilch. That runs wildly counter to the game's own stated design philosophies. I can appreciate the why of the one-way stairs -- Vault 5 even as a one-off isn't that great a design conceit. But yeah, there really should have been other changes to go with it.
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Nov 19, 2017 05:30
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The problem is the "solid plan" for Tomb boils down to utilizing the narrow field options that either negate or heavily reduce the damage from torment or commit yourself to buring an insane amount of consumables. I always say, the real design problem with Tomb is that its trivial for a handful of builds but insanely difficult for others due to the nature of unavoidable torment from mummy death curses. Back when you could stairdance Tomb could be done by almost any build if you played extremely carefully but I don't think that's the case anymore. But admittedly, I've only done Tomb once since the changes. Its just hard to work up the nerve to commit a character to extended that is probably gonna get killed. And I've pushed the envelope with extended a lot before! someone awful. posted:according to this commit from 2016 corrosion is dispellable and i don't see any commits since that state anything about changing it, but i've legit never tried it Its possible that the death where I tried using cancellation to dispel corrosion was before that commit. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Nov 19, 2017 |
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Nov 19, 2017 06:42
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I did Tomb with the one way stairs and finished it on my second try ever with no Torment reduction besides rN+++, for whatever that's worth. And by most accounts, on a pretty challenging race/god combo. I did it having been 100% spoiled on the mechanics, though, right down to typical map layout. I did burn a crazy amount of consumables in the end, but I didn't spend extra time grinding extras to do it, either. Looking back, it's still baffling to me that a lot of people do it between Hell/Pan instead of dead last, but I'm backasswards on a lot of things. I guess in the end, it may be fiendishly hard, but at least the challenges you face are extremely predictable compared to Pan.
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Nov 19, 2017 07:59
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I used to do Tomb before Hell and Pan because it has a huge amount of loot at the end that can potentially be very helpful. Its also easier to be geared for Tomb than Hell which throws tons of stuff at you all at once. I probably wouldn't do it before then now unless I had a build that trivalized it.
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Nov 19, 2017 08:06
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I don't think I'd do Tomb unless I had Necromutation (as a caster) or Silence (as a melee dude)
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Nov 19, 2017 08:18
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I still rely on scrolls of immolation, potions of lignification, and pure dumb luck every time I clear tomb. After the tenth time ya would think I would just skip it, but winning without 15 runes ain't really winning.
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Nov 19, 2017 23:42
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can a firestormer still eat tomb alive
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Nov 19, 2017 23:44
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I had good luck using infestation and necromutation as a Gnoll. The swarm of scarabs take out the Ushanti at the edge of LOS before they can dispel undead, and necromutation protects against the death curses.
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Nov 20, 2017 00:03
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Lawman 0 posted:can a firestormer still eat tomb alive My guess is going to be yes, with a heaping helping of immolation tossed in for good measure. I'm used to burning mummies to death as a tree so the loss of stair dancing ain't to bad. What I'm not looking forward to is my next TSO attempt...
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Nov 20, 2017 00:35
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Lawman 0 posted:can a firestormer still eat tomb alive Alive? 
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Nov 20, 2017 02:32
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Lawman 0 posted:can a firestormer still eat tomb alive Pretty much. Once again thread vastly overrating the danger of tomb. Back in my day, doing tomb would get you -50 hp rot and set all your stats to zero! back when stats going to zero meant you died! gosh darn whippersnappers why i outta
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Nov 20, 2017 04:20
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Yeah but neither of those actually mattered unless you were careless. Aside from summons being dispelled when you kill the caster, basically every change has made Tomb harder.
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Nov 20, 2017 04:26
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Indecisive posted:Pretty much. Once again thread vastly overrating the danger of tomb. Back in my day, doing tomb would get you -50 hp rot and set all your stats to zero! back when stats going to zero meant you died! gosh darn whippersnappers why i outta Back then you could just drink a potion of restore abilities to negate all that so who cared? I had the stat rot from Tomb be relevant all of once and it was after they removed restore ability potions.
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Nov 20, 2017 04:36
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Wand stacking changes hit Trunk (I only linked the first commit). They contain: -Number of wand charges will be visible to the player without requiring identification (as soon as you've identified the type of wand). -Wands no longer have a cap on charges. -Wands of the same type now merge when picked up (combining their charges into a single wand in your inventory). -Wand are destroyed once they use their last charge. Along with these changes: -Zot traps will no longer drain wand charges; no more tossing your wands over Zot traps! -Scrolls of recharging have been removed; they mainly existed (from a development standpoint) to provide more wand charges for capped wands without forcing the player to carry around multiple duplicate wands. Now that they stack and have no max cap, there's not as much reason to keep them around compared to just tweaking wand generation weights down the line. -Wands of confusion are gone, because it was effectively like wands of paralysis against most monsters, but had more charges. Weights for it split between paralysis and enslavement, and any Wanderer that would have spawned with a wand of confusion gets a wand of paralysis instead.
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Nov 20, 2017 05:26
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I hope they look at the relative rarities of some of the more powerful wands. I've gone entire games with finding one (or zero) wands of clouds or scattershot and now I can't recharge them.
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Nov 20, 2017 05:38
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Floodkiller posted:-Scrolls of recharging have been removed; they mainly existed (from a development standpoint) to provide more wand charges for capped wands without forcing the player to carry around multiple duplicate wands. See, I would never have seen it that way, and I'm sure many players are would agree; I used them to buff the wand I valued most, from invis for lowlvl stabbers to teleport/healwounds for lategame tanks. That feels like they're removing player autonomy and calling it progress. Also rods, but lol.
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Nov 20, 2017 06:28
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Serephina posted:See, I would never have seen it that way, and I'm sure many players are would agree; I used them to buff the wand I valued most, from invis for lowlvl stabbers to teleport/healwounds for lategame tanks. That feels like they're removing player autonomy and calling it progress. Also rods, but lol. The funnier part is that it's another section where the removal is to be complemented by changes to come in the future to balance it out. 
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Nov 20, 2017 06:51
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Floodkiller posted:Wand stacking changes hit Trunk (I only linked the first commit). They contain: These are changes I can get behind. I might actually be more inclined to use offensive wands now that I can actually carry more of them. Scrolls of recharging being removed barely matters because I only really used those on wands of heling and teleportation but those are gone too. Too bad the god that would of really been fun with these changes is gone as well. Serephina posted:See, I would never have seen it that way, and I'm sure many players are would agree; I used them to buff the wand I valued most, from invis for lowlvl stabbers to teleport/healwounds for lategame tanks. That feels like they're removing player autonomy and calling it progress. Also rods, but lol. The odds of actually finding a wand of invis early on are absurdly low so that's not a very good example. The only time I used recharging scrolls on something other than healing and teleporation was in the early game. If I was running a character that was weak but had found something like an acid rod, I might burn a recharging scroll on it to make dealing with stuff like hydras easier. That didn't happen often enough though that I'm gonna complain about this change. VVV I used recharging on dig/disint wands too but only because I didn't want to make room to carry duplicate wands or bother running to find one everytime I used up all the charges. Now that they stack I doubt I'd ever run out of charges. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 07:08
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I used to recharge dig/disintegrate if I was murderholing a lot in Orc or Elf and had nothing else to use them on.
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Nov 20, 2017 10:16
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InternetKraken, you might agree with the dev's mentality, but not everyone plays exactly that way. I used invis wands on stabbers, or used disintegrate as anti-hydra, or spammed dig on the rare occasion. I never even *considered* recharge as a replacement for carrying a 2nd wand that I want. I'd just carry the second. It's not as if they have weight anymore!
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Nov 20, 2017 10:26
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Serephina posted:InternetKraken, you might agree with the dev's mentality, but not everyone plays exactly that way. I used invis wands on stabbers, or used disintegrate as anti-hydra, or spammed dig on the rare occasion. I never even *considered* recharge as a replacement for carrying a 2nd wand that I want. I'd just carry the second. It's not as if they have weight anymore! Well I don't use a variety of wands much but that's primarily because they caused so much inventory problem. They don't weight anything but each wand took up a slot, so carrying a variety of them around on top of everything else was difficult. It was such a hassle that I pretty much ignored wands beyond the early game, aside from the utility ones. Also if they tweak wand spawn rates to compensate for the lack of recharge scrolls then it doesn't matter at all. I know I'm one of the people that has ragged on the devs before for making commits that rely on future changes for balance, but this is a case where the QOL improvement is so nice that I'm willing to overlook it. Its not like the Tomb change where it actually made the game less fun to play on top of being more difficult. Now they just need to revive Pakellas and evocations might be fun!
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Nov 20, 2017 10:34
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Mate, a lot of us played with DE's not being able to carry much more than their robes, a spellbook and an apple. Crawl has slots galore; you can just leave poo poo lying around on the floor, it's not as if jellies eat them anymore! The wand stacking is a QoL improvement no doubt, but replacing recharge with a small buff across-the-board completely misses the point about how people have wand preferences and can use recharge to customize charges according to their run. It's a feature removal that takes away player agency, we can call a spade a spade.
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Nov 20, 2017 11:03
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Floodkiller posted:Now that they stack and have no max cap, there's not as much reason to keep them around compared to just tweaking wand generation weights down the line.  rip actually getting good use out of the occasional cloud or scattershot wand, went to the farm upstate with malmut reform and a good tomb
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Nov 20, 2017 11:55
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I think everyone can agree wand stacking is good. As for recharging, I will miss it, but I can understand the balance concerns of having it in with wand stacking. What I would suggest is to change scrolls of recharging to a very rare consumable -- to give some arbitrarily chosen numbers, it could be similar in generation weight to acquirement, but with triple the strength of each scroll. My reasoning for this is that it lowers the overall impact of recharging and prevents players from simply acquiring enough charges to effectively turn wands into a tactical rather than strategic resource, while preserving player agency in giving limited about which wands to focus on particularly. Another advantage of this approach is that it adds another type of rare strategic consumable, which are always fun things to find and generally enhances the reward aspect of play.
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Nov 20, 2017 13:41
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Why not put them back in but just cut the Gen rate in half
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Nov 20, 2017 14:36
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That would also work, but I dramatically reducing the generation weight and increasing the power makes them feel more special and important. It likely prompts more meaningful decisions about how and when to use them, as well as creating more interesting stories, like that time I found a wand of iron shot and a scroll of recharging on d:4 and proceeded to blow up every nasty thing that even looked at me funny all the way through lair.
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Nov 20, 2017 14:40
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The wand of confusion comments are, well, confusing.  Confusion was good for drowning, being longer lasting than paralysis, infighting among other things paralysis doesn't do *but* paralysis is extremely good at letting you stab things to death. That's pretty different to me, specially the added safety of not being hit by stumbling attacks. Saying they're equally effective at disabling targets is like saying fireball is comparable to iron shot in that they both kill things. To me it's explaining the rationale for reducing confusion wand charges, not removal.Wand stacking is good though, hellcrawl had it for a while and it made coming back to DCSS very difficult apple fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Nov 20, 2017 |
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Nov 20, 2017 14:48
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Yeah the removal of confusion is extremely bad
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Nov 20, 2017 15:06
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apple posted:Initial impressions on new WJC: Thanks for the feedback! Yeah, polearm kiting is something I figured could be abusable, but it is abusable for any character that can gain distance easily (Ce, Sp) so I didn't worry about it too much. I feel like WJC + Polearms is such a narrow corner of the game that anyone getting into it is probably looking for a very particular experience. OTOH polearms aren't that great a match for WJC due to the lack of synergy with Lunge. I ended up discarding the WJ evasion bonus because it felt a bit artificial and, in practice, it turned out that the damage front-loading plus repositioning are already enough of an advantage in specific situations. Also, WJ has some subtle tricks once you get used to the kit (you can still gain 2 tiles of distance if you whirlwind and immediately WJ, because whirlwind stops enemies for a turn, and WJ takes a long, but single turn). I'm glad to hear you're liking it more than the previous iteration. I'm also enjoying the god more now, even though I'm still unsure of the power level. I have things to propose in case it needs toning down or powering up, but we'll need more experience with this iteration before we can tell for sure.
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Nov 20, 2017 15:39
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permabuffs in hellcrawl spoiled me
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SteelNeuron posted:Thanks for the feedback! SteelNeuron, did you read mibe's thoughts from IRC? https://pastebin.com/9FEfPJ88
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Nov 20, 2017 18:35
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Wands changes are good and I'm happy for them except for the recharging removal because I just know I'm going to get hosed out of charging the wands I actually use.
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Nov 20, 2017 19:05
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World Famous W posted:Wands changes could have been good and I would be happy for them except for the recharging removal because I just know I'm going to get hosed out of charging the wands I actually use. Fixed this for you
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Nov 20, 2017 19:37
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Removing recharge makes me basically go "gently caress wands". Recharge was for scattershot and clouds.
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Nov 20, 2017 20:34
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Yeah, that's a mild quality of life improvement in exchange for an out and out nerf to the rare wand types. He did say they might be able to compensate by changing the drop weights, though.
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Nov 20, 2017 20:54
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