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limp_cheese
Sep 10, 2007


Nothing to see here. Move along.

HEY GUNS posted:

well, the "public" sort of post-dates my period, so...

If the peasantry didn't like having to give up all their men to send to war was there any recourse? I assume around that time most people only knew the king was at war and whatever they thought meant nothing so why complain.

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Polyakov
Mar 22, 2012


Nebakenezzer posted:



Hitler's seat of power on his aircraft, Immelmann III. I've been trying to think of a joke for five minutes, the best I have is "the Wolves' easy chair."

His Kampfy chair.

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

limp_cheese posted:

If the peasantry didn't like having to give up all their men to send to war was there any recourse? I assume around that time most people only knew the king was at war and whatever they thought meant nothing so why complain.

After the fall of Rome soldiering wasn't exactly an honest or desirable profession and was infamous for attracting a lot of men who aren't exactly fit or fit the lifestyle of the average peasant or serf of the past. Unless you had a personal stake in the conflict and it's politics war and soldiers were irrelevant to the average person unless they were billeting with them. Or if they were really unlucky those soldiers hadn't been paid.

Unless the battle happened right on their doorstep or they had the unfortunate nature of being caught up in a siege the average person of the past rarely saw or interacted with the martial world and tried their best to avoid doing so. As armies got more professional into the modern era peoples opinions sort of change evolve alongside national identity and patriotism but that took a few centuries. I mean this is more or less how it worked out in Europe anyway.

FAUXTON
Jun 2, 2005

spero che tu stia bene

Polyakov posted:

His Kampfy chair.

Did you pass up reich-cliner for a reason or

limp_cheese
Sep 10, 2007


Nothing to see here. Move along.

SeanBeansShako posted:

After the fall of Rome soldiering wasn't exactly an honest or desirable profession and was infamous for attracting a lot of men who aren't exactly fit or fit the lifestyle of the average peasant or serf of the past. Unless you had a personal stake in the conflict and it's politics war and soldiers were irrelevant to the average person unless they were billeting with them. Or if they were really unlucky those soldiers hadn't been paid.

Unless the battle happened right on their doorstep or they had the unfortunate nature of being caught up in a siege the average person of the past rarely saw or interacted with the martial world and tried their best to avoid doing so. As armies got more professional into the modern era peoples opinions sort of change evolve alongside national identity and patriotism but that took a few centuries. I mean this is more or less how it worked out in Europe anyway.

That makes sense.

System Metternich
Feb 28, 2010

But what did he mean by that?

Don't mind me, just dropping this insanely metal picture from the 30YW depicting the "horrors of war" here



(It's from this book cover if you're interested, click on the button with the red e to read the book)

aphid_licker
Jan 7, 2009


Dude looks pretty blasé about the whole armored lindwurm situation

Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007

HEY GUNS posted:

and without hapsburgs i can't spend my time hapsperging out :v:

Ask / Tell > Ask Us About Military History Mk. III: Habsburger's Syndrome

Clarence
May 3, 2012

13th KRRC War Diary, 24th Nov 1917 posted:

A prisoner was taken by the Sentry group at Wood Farm, (Right Front) A Company, having approached the post under the observation of the sentry through Belgian Wood. He was of 54th. WURTEMBURG Regt., Machine Gun Company.
As he was part of the machine gun company I'm guessing this one was a deliberate choice to be taken prisoner, not someone getting lost on patrol.

MikeCrotch
Nov 5, 2011

I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

limp_cheese posted:

That's the one, thanks.

Edit:
That actually brings another question to mind, how did returning veterans cope with fighting in fruitless wars or ones in which they got decimated? I know the usual things of drugs and alcohol, but how often were they able to turn the public at large into not supporting the war? Is this even something people cared about or was it just seen at the time as the norm? I'm interested in any period of history and understand "norms" have always changed.

The few Roman soldiers who managed to cut their way free of the encirclement at Cannae were exiled from Rome to Sicily for the shame of participating in such an infamous defeat.

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

There's any number of classical literary descriptions of returning veterans where despite it not being understood by contemporaries, the symptoms of PTSD are pretty visible.

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.
And those poor bastards eventually became vagrants because of both the mental and physical fatigue during their soldiering wrecked their body.

limp_cheese
Sep 10, 2007


Nothing to see here. Move along.

SeanBeansShako posted:

And those poor bastards eventually became vagrants because of both the mental and physical fatigue during their soldiering wrecked their body.

I'm assuming that's the norm throughout most of history? Were there things set up in the past to take care of wounded, both mentally and physically, vets or were they just thrown to the wayside?

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009

Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

limp_cheese posted:

I'm assuming that's the norm throughout most of history? Were there things set up in the past to take care of wounded, both mentally and physically, vets or were they just thrown to the wayside?

Family might take care of them, if they could. A respected veteran might get a free burial from the community as well! But otherwise they were just another cripple or crazy who either depended on alms or stole to survive and eventually got imprisoned.

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.
Government pensions were originally brought in by some nations, the UK being my primary well of knowledge but this still was not enough. Plus well, you had to live long enough to get them too.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

limp_cheese posted:

I'm assuming that's the norm throughout most of history? Were there things set up in the past to take care of wounded, both mentally and physically, vets or were they just thrown to the wayside?
the army of flanders had military hospitals in the 16th century, and france started hospitals for wounded or old veterans who could no longer take care of themselves in the 17th c, that's where Les Invalides comes from (1670)

Don Gato
Apr 28, 2013

Actually a bipedal cat.
Grimey Drawer
Don't forget the origin of the Red Cross movement was a guy rallying local villagers to help the wounded in the aftermath of the Battle of Solferino and having the radical idea of "maybe we should help all he dying people on that battlefield instead of taking their poo poo as they slowly bleed out"

Tias
May 25, 2008

Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
I just listened to part one of the Dollops podcast on opioid use in America, and holy hell the civil war was addiction central. The chief surgeon of the union army made all his diagnoses on horseback, and made soldiers lick opium powder off his hand :stare:

Goatse James Bond
Mar 28, 2010

If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Don Gato posted:

Don't forget the origin of the Red Cross movement was a guy rallying local villagers to help the wounded in the aftermath of the Battle of Solferino and having the radical idea of "maybe we should help all he dying people on that battlefield instead of taking their poo poo as they slowly bleed out"

:raise:

what a weirdo

limp_cheese
Sep 10, 2007


Nothing to see here. Move along.

I'm assuming most of the advancements of caring for the wounded happened after professional standing armies. Why would anyone help the assholes who was threatening them just a week earlier?

If this going to start a terrible derail I apologize now, but I'm reading Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq to better understand the circumstances behind my sacrifice and am interested in seeing what the thread thought of it. It's also why I'm asking how soldiers in the past dealt with being wounded in counter productive wars. It's a weird feeling knowing you died for nothing at best and actively hurt the mission you were sent out to do at worst. I look to history to better understand my circumstances by looking at how others dealt with even worse situations in the past.

Edit: If this opens a can of worms I'll delete most of this post. I don't want to be like the "No True Communist" rear end in a top hat.

limp_cheese fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Nov 25, 2017

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME
It's not that I don't want to respond to you, it's that the entire rhetoric around "productive" or "nonproductive" wars does not seem to be there yet in the 17th century. The head of state either gets his/her war aims in the treaty or doesn't--many treaties return everything to the status quo ante bellum, even. But almost none of the soldiers seem to talk about what they do as accomplishing a particular purpose. (The exception, and fortunately this is likely to be in English if it exists, is people who were connected to the Elector Palatine and his family, who kept raising armies after he lost the Battle of White Mountain in 1620.) Instead, they say that they're working for a particular person. "I serve the King of Spain," etc.

Wars are frequent and have uncertain outcomes in this century.

my dad
Oct 17, 2012

this shall be humorous
If anything, the avoidance of unpleasant topics and the implicit glorification of war resulting from that has been consistently a downside of these threads.

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.
Even though we love reading about it and sperging, war is bad and dumb and sucks for everyone involved.

Fun fact, I really really don't dig modern warfare stuff as much as stuff from a few centuries past. It kind of depresses me.

xthetenth
Dec 30, 2012

Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

my dad posted:

If anything, the avoidance of unpleasant topics and the implicit glorification of war resulting from that has been consistently a downside of these threads.

And even then, this is one of the better places on the internet for acknowledging that sort of thing.

Incidentally, is Notre Gloriaeux Pere watching the most recent fight against the perfidious Boche?

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004


Don Gato posted:

Don't forget the origin of the Red Cross movement was a guy rallying local villagers to help the wounded in the aftermath of the Battle of Solferino and having the radical idea of "maybe we should help all he dying people on that battlefield instead of taking their poo poo as they slowly bleed out"

I hope this idea catches on with the US healthcare system some day

my dad
Oct 17, 2012

this shall be humorous

xthetenth posted:

Incidentally, is Notre Gloriaeux Pere watching the most recent fight against the perfidious Boche?

You watch the trenches, I'll watch the skies. :v:

sullat
Jan 9, 2012
In Roman times, if you survived 25 years you got a piece of land that you could live on. Or sell to land speculators for cash to drink with.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010
Ultra Carp

limp_cheese posted:

I'm assuming most of the advancements of caring for the wounded happened after professional standing armies. Why would anyone help the assholes who was threatening them just a week earlier?

If this going to start a terrible derail I apologize now, but I'm reading Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq to better understand the circumstances behind my sacrifice and am interested in seeing what the thread thought of it. It's also why I'm asking how soldiers in the past dealt with being wounded in counter productive wars. It's a weird feeling knowing you died for nothing at best and actively hurt the mission you were sent out to do at worst. I look to history to better understand my circumstances by looking at how others dealt with even worse situations in the past.

Edit: If this opens a can of worms I'll delete most of this post. I don't want to be like the "No True Communist" rear end in a top hat.

Fiasco is a very good book, and Ricks is a smart guy. It also pairs well with the PBS Frontline documentary Bush's War, which covers a lot of the same ground and provides some wider context.

Strasburgs UCL
Jul 28, 2009

Hang in there little buddy

limp_cheese posted:

I'm assuming most of the advancements of caring for the wounded happened after professional standing armies. Why would anyone help the assholes who was threatening them just a week earlier?

If this going to start a terrible derail I apologize now, but I'm reading Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq to better understand the circumstances behind my sacrifice and am interested in seeing what the thread thought of it. It's also why I'm asking how soldiers in the past dealt with being wounded in counter productive wars. It's a weird feeling knowing you died for nothing at best and actively hurt the mission you were sent out to do at worst. I look to history to better understand my circumstances by looking at how others dealt with even worse situations in the past.

Edit: If this opens a can of worms I'll delete most of this post. I don't want to be like the "No True Communist" rear end in a top hat.

Like others pointed out its hard to find other direct analogues because in a lot of cases the soldiers fighting the wars weren't connected with the politics of it at all. The most obvious and closest connection would be to Vietnam War veterans, although that is also pretty different as a result of the draft. World War 1 might also be a useful point of comparison since it was a war that was devastating to those who fought it and was considered by a lot of people to be pointless afterwords.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Sounds like the Battle of Karánsebes, which was mostly apocryphal.

EDIT: I've never made this recommendation before, but you should read the talk page for this article, because there's actual historical research happening there.

Somebody's footnote game is seriously on point.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

JoeCL posted:

Like others pointed out its hard to find other direct analogues because in a lot of cases the soldiers fighting the wars weren't connected with the politics of it at all. The most obvious and closest connection would be to Vietnam War veterans, although that is also pretty different as a result of the draft. World War 1 might also be a useful point of comparison since it was a war that was devastating to those who fought it and was considered by a lot of people to be pointless afterwords.

If you want to dig deep on being a veteran of a war that no one wants to think about and thinks wasn't worth fighting check out German WW1 vets. There are entire genres of literature, music, and art that boil down to German WW1 vets trying to figure out what their sacrifices meant and why they had to go through why they did. Otto Dix is the obvious starting point if you just want to flip through some images to reflect on. Here's his "war cripples," a painting of German vets in Berlin after the war:



WW2 has a touch of this as well, but given how hosed everything got it has a very different tone. It's much, much more apocalyptic right after the fact and much, much more overtly guilty and/or self-exculpatory once everyone comes around to just how pervasive the atrocities were in that one. WW1 is much, much more about trying to figure out the pointlessness of a sacrifice that everyone back home is trying to forget as fast as possible.

Disinterested
Jun 29, 2011

You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

HEY GUNS posted:

the army of flanders had military hospitals in the 16th century, and france started hospitals for wounded or old veterans who could no longer take care of themselves in the 17th c, that's where Les Invalides comes from (1670)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Hospital_Chelsea See also, 1682.

Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

JoeCL posted:

Like others pointed out its hard to find other direct analogues because in a lot of cases the soldiers fighting the wars weren't connected with the politics of it at all. The most obvious and closest connection would be to Vietnam War veterans, although that is also pretty different as a result of the draft. World War 1 might also be a useful point of comparison since it was a war that was devastating to those who fought it and was considered by a lot of people to be pointless afterwords.

Weren't the draftees a minority among those who fought in Vietnam?

If we want to find a war that was unproductive (without being a defeat), Korea would be a better example in recent history. Or the 2006 Israeli-Hezbollah conflict.

Tias
May 25, 2008

Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

SeanBeansShako posted:

Even though we love reading about it and sperging, war is bad and dumb and sucks for everyone involved.

Fun fact, I really really don't dig modern warfare stuff as much as stuff from a few centuries past. It kind of depresses me.

I got into W40K and milhist at the same time, and on some level I just lust for the death of millions, but it's easier in fiction. Also, being Danish, war on my own soil is only a couple of generations removed, and most of us are brought up with a sensible respect for the horrors of the occupation.

So I guess I dig war on an abstract scale and find it extremely exciting, but on the other hand I'm engaged in anti-war activism and demilitarization of society. It's complicated, I suppose.

P-Mack
Nov 10, 2007

David Bell's The First Total War may be worth a read, he looks at the Napoleonic wars and tries to explain how perception of war transitioned from bullshit for kings and soldiers best left to professionals into an apocalyptic struggle of citizens for the fate of civilization. And how since then even penny-ante bullshit wars need to get recast in those grandiose terms.

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Still around, but the French one is better because those men who lived there were technically instructors and helped trained soldiers and students I think.

Still, props to the old school CP rocking it early 18th century style.

ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Kemper Boyd posted:

Weren't the draftees a minority among those who fought in Vietnam?

Yes, but this is somewhat skewed by encouragements to enlist so as to pick your service branch rather than being shipped off as infantry to the jungle.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

SeanBeansShako posted:

Still around, but the French one is better because those men who lived there were technically instructors and helped trained soldiers and students I think.

Still, props to the old school CP rocking it early 18th century style.
i ran into one of those dudes on the bus :3:

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

HEY GUNS posted:

It's not that I don't want to respond to you, it's that the entire rhetoric around "productive" or "nonproductive" wars does not seem to be there yet in the 17th century. The head of state either gets his/her war aims in the treaty or doesn't--many treaties return everything to the status quo ante bellum, even. But almost none of the soldiers seem to talk about what they do as accomplishing a particular purpose. (The exception, and fortunately this is likely to be in English if it exists, is people who were connected to the Elector Palatine and his family, who kept raising armies after he lost the Battle of White Mountain in 1620.) Instead, they say that they're working for a particular person. "I serve the King of Spain," etc.

I suspect there are going to be quite a lot of examples in English in the case of the English Civil War. The Good Old Cause was an emotional thing for decades after (and forms part of the roots of the American revolution).

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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

feedmegin posted:

I suspect there are going to be quite a lot of examples in English in the case of the English Civil War. The Good Old Cause was an emotional thing for decades after (and forms part of the roots of the American revolution).
Jacobites who got wounded probably also left records

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