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HEY GUNS posted:well, the "public" sort of post-dates my period, so... If the peasantry didn't like having to give up all their men to send to war was there any recourse? I assume around that time most people only knew the king was at war and whatever they thought meant nothing so why complain.
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Nov 24, 2017 01:09
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Nebakenezzer posted:
His Kampfy chair.
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Nov 24, 2017 01:35
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limp_cheese posted:If the peasantry didn't like having to give up all their men to send to war was there any recourse? I assume around that time most people only knew the king was at war and whatever they thought meant nothing so why complain. After the fall of Rome soldiering wasn't exactly an honest or desirable profession and was infamous for attracting a lot of men who aren't exactly fit or fit the lifestyle of the average peasant or serf of the past. Unless you had a personal stake in the conflict and it's politics war and soldiers were irrelevant to the average person unless they were billeting with them. Or if they were really unlucky those soldiers hadn't been paid. Unless the battle happened right on their doorstep or they had the unfortunate nature of being caught up in a siege the average person of the past rarely saw or interacted with the martial world and tried their best to avoid doing so. As armies got more professional into the modern era peoples opinions sort of change evolve alongside national identity and patriotism but that took a few centuries. I mean this is more or less how it worked out in Europe anyway.
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Nov 24, 2017 03:30
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Polyakov posted:His Kampfy chair. Did you pass up reich-cliner for a reason or
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Nov 24, 2017 04:02
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SeanBeansShako posted:After the fall of Rome soldiering wasn't exactly an honest or desirable profession and was infamous for attracting a lot of men who aren't exactly fit or fit the lifestyle of the average peasant or serf of the past. Unless you had a personal stake in the conflict and it's politics war and soldiers were irrelevant to the average person unless they were billeting with them. Or if they were really unlucky those soldiers hadn't been paid. That makes sense.
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Nov 24, 2017 05:55
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Don't mind me, just dropping this insanely metal picture from the 30YW depicting the "horrors of war" here (It's from this book cover if you're interested, click on the button with the red e to read the book)
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Nov 24, 2017 10:02
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Dude looks pretty blasé about the whole armored lindwurm situation
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Nov 24, 2017 10:29
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HEY GUNS posted:and without hapsburgs i can't spend my time hapsperging out Ask / Tell > Ask Us About Military History Mk. III: Habsburger's Syndrome
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Nov 24, 2017 11:11
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13th KRRC War Diary, 24th Nov 1917 posted:A prisoner was taken by the Sentry group at Wood Farm, (Right Front) A Company, having approached the post under the observation of the sentry through Belgian Wood. He was of 54th. WURTEMBURG Regt., Machine Gun Company.
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Nov 24, 2017 12:27
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limp_cheese posted:That's the one, thanks. The few Roman soldiers who managed to cut their way free of the encirclement at Cannae were exiled from Rome to Sicily for the shame of participating in such an infamous defeat.
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Nov 24, 2017 12:44
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There's any number of classical literary descriptions of returning veterans where despite it not being understood by contemporaries, the symptoms of PTSD are pretty visible.
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Nov 24, 2017 12:53
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And those poor bastards eventually became vagrants because of both the mental and physical fatigue during their soldiering wrecked their body.
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Nov 24, 2017 14:57
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SeanBeansShako posted:And those poor bastards eventually became vagrants because of both the mental and physical fatigue during their soldiering wrecked their body. I'm assuming that's the norm throughout most of history? Were there things set up in the past to take care of wounded, both mentally and physically, vets or were they just thrown to the wayside?
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Nov 24, 2017 17:40
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limp_cheese posted:I'm assuming that's the norm throughout most of history? Were there things set up in the past to take care of wounded, both mentally and physically, vets or were they just thrown to the wayside? Family might take care of them, if they could. A respected veteran might get a free burial from the community as well! But otherwise they were just another cripple or crazy who either depended on alms or stole to survive and eventually got imprisoned.
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Nov 24, 2017 17:59
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Government pensions were originally brought in by some nations, the UK being my primary well of knowledge but this still was not enough. Plus well, you had to live long enough to get them too.
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Nov 24, 2017 18:00
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limp_cheese posted:I'm assuming that's the norm throughout most of history? Were there things set up in the past to take care of wounded, both mentally and physically, vets or were they just thrown to the wayside?
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Nov 24, 2017 18:15
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Don't forget the origin of the Red Cross movement was a guy rallying local villagers to help the wounded in the aftermath of the Battle of Solferino and having the radical idea of "maybe we should help all he dying people on that battlefield instead of taking their poo poo as they slowly bleed out"
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Nov 24, 2017 23:52
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I just listened to part one of the Dollops podcast on opioid use in America, and holy hell the civil war was addiction central. The chief surgeon of the union army made all his diagnoses on horseback, and made soldiers lick opium powder off his hand 
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Nov 24, 2017 23:55
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Don Gato posted:Don't forget the origin of the Red Cross movement was a guy rallying local villagers to help the wounded in the aftermath of the Battle of Solferino and having the radical idea of "maybe we should help all he dying people on that battlefield instead of taking their poo poo as they slowly bleed out"  what a weirdo
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Nov 25, 2017 00:10
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I'm assuming most of the advancements of caring for the wounded happened after professional standing armies. Why would anyone help the assholes who was threatening them just a week earlier? If this going to start a terrible derail I apologize now, but I'm reading Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq to better understand the circumstances behind my sacrifice and am interested in seeing what the thread thought of it. It's also why I'm asking how soldiers in the past dealt with being wounded in counter productive wars. It's a weird feeling knowing you died for nothing at best and actively hurt the mission you were sent out to do at worst. I look to history to better understand my circumstances by looking at how others dealt with even worse situations in the past. Edit: If this opens a can of worms I'll delete most of this post. I don't want to be like the "No True Communist" rear end in a top hat. limp_cheese fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Nov 25, 2017 |
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Nov 25, 2017 00:23
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It's not that I don't want to respond to you, it's that the entire rhetoric around "productive" or "nonproductive" wars does not seem to be there yet in the 17th century. The head of state either gets his/her war aims in the treaty or doesn't--many treaties return everything to the status quo ante bellum, even. But almost none of the soldiers seem to talk about what they do as accomplishing a particular purpose. (The exception, and fortunately this is likely to be in English if it exists, is people who were connected to the Elector Palatine and his family, who kept raising armies after he lost the Battle of White Mountain in 1620.) Instead, they say that they're working for a particular person. "I serve the King of Spain," etc. Wars are frequent and have uncertain outcomes in this century.
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Nov 25, 2017 00:47
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If anything, the avoidance of unpleasant topics and the implicit glorification of war resulting from that has been consistently a downside of these threads.
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Nov 25, 2017 00:50
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Even though we love reading about it and sperging, war is bad and dumb and sucks for everyone involved. Fun fact, I really really don't dig modern warfare stuff as much as stuff from a few centuries past. It kind of depresses me.
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Nov 25, 2017 01:06
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my dad posted:If anything, the avoidance of unpleasant topics and the implicit glorification of war resulting from that has been consistently a downside of these threads. And even then, this is one of the better places on the internet for acknowledging that sort of thing. Incidentally, is Notre Gloriaeux Pere watching the most recent fight against the perfidious Boche?
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Nov 25, 2017 01:19
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Don Gato posted:Don't forget the origin of the Red Cross movement was a guy rallying local villagers to help the wounded in the aftermath of the Battle of Solferino and having the radical idea of "maybe we should help all he dying people on that battlefield instead of taking their poo poo as they slowly bleed out" I hope this idea catches on with the US healthcare system some day
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Nov 25, 2017 01:22
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xthetenth posted:Incidentally, is Notre Gloriaeux Pere watching the most recent fight against the perfidious Boche? You watch the trenches, I'll watch the skies. 
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Nov 25, 2017 01:23
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In Roman times, if you survived 25 years you got a piece of land that you could live on. Or sell to land speculators for cash to drink with.
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Nov 25, 2017 02:29
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limp_cheese posted:I'm assuming most of the advancements of caring for the wounded happened after professional standing armies. Why would anyone help the assholes who was threatening them just a week earlier? Fiasco is a very good book, and Ricks is a smart guy. It also pairs well with the PBS Frontline documentary Bush's War, which covers a lot of the same ground and provides some wider context.
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Nov 25, 2017 02:32
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limp_cheese posted:I'm assuming most of the advancements of caring for the wounded happened after professional standing armies. Why would anyone help the assholes who was threatening them just a week earlier? Like others pointed out its hard to find other direct analogues because in a lot of cases the soldiers fighting the wars weren't connected with the politics of it at all. The most obvious and closest connection would be to Vietnam War veterans, although that is also pretty different as a result of the draft. World War 1 might also be a useful point of comparison since it was a war that was devastating to those who fought it and was considered by a lot of people to be pointless afterwords.
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Nov 25, 2017 02:47
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Sounds like the Battle of Karánsebes, which was mostly apocryphal. Somebody's footnote game is seriously on point.
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Nov 25, 2017 02:55
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JoeCL posted:Like others pointed out its hard to find other direct analogues because in a lot of cases the soldiers fighting the wars weren't connected with the politics of it at all. The most obvious and closest connection would be to Vietnam War veterans, although that is also pretty different as a result of the draft. World War 1 might also be a useful point of comparison since it was a war that was devastating to those who fought it and was considered by a lot of people to be pointless afterwords. If you want to dig deep on being a veteran of a war that no one wants to think about and thinks wasn't worth fighting check out German WW1 vets. There are entire genres of literature, music, and art that boil down to German WW1 vets trying to figure out what their sacrifices meant and why they had to go through why they did. Otto Dix is the obvious starting point if you just want to flip through some images to reflect on. Here's his "war cripples," a painting of German vets in Berlin after the war:  WW2 has a touch of this as well, but given how hosed everything got it has a very different tone. It's much, much more apocalyptic right after the fact and much, much more overtly guilty and/or self-exculpatory once everyone comes around to just how pervasive the atrocities were in that one. WW1 is much, much more about trying to figure out the pointlessness of a sacrifice that everyone back home is trying to forget as fast as possible.
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Nov 25, 2017 03:11
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HEY GUNS posted:the army of flanders had military hospitals in the 16th century, and france started hospitals for wounded or old veterans who could no longer take care of themselves in the 17th c, that's where Les Invalides comes from (1670) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Hospital_Chelsea See also, 1682.
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Nov 25, 2017 04:07
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JoeCL posted:Like others pointed out its hard to find other direct analogues because in a lot of cases the soldiers fighting the wars weren't connected with the politics of it at all. The most obvious and closest connection would be to Vietnam War veterans, although that is also pretty different as a result of the draft. World War 1 might also be a useful point of comparison since it was a war that was devastating to those who fought it and was considered by a lot of people to be pointless afterwords. Weren't the draftees a minority among those who fought in Vietnam? If we want to find a war that was unproductive (without being a defeat), Korea would be a better example in recent history. Or the 2006 Israeli-Hezbollah conflict.
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Nov 25, 2017 10:36
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SeanBeansShako posted:Even though we love reading about it and sperging, war is bad and dumb and sucks for everyone involved. I got into W40K and milhist at the same time, and on some level I just lust for the death of millions, but it's easier in fiction. Also, being Danish, war on my own soil is only a couple of generations removed, and most of us are brought up with a sensible respect for the horrors of the occupation. So I guess I dig war on an abstract scale and find it extremely exciting, but on the other hand I'm engaged in anti-war activism and demilitarization of society. It's complicated, I suppose.
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Nov 25, 2017 10:55
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David Bell's The First Total War may be worth a read, he looks at the Napoleonic wars and tries to explain how perception of war transitioned from bullshit for kings and soldiers best left to professionals into an apocalyptic struggle of citizens for the fate of civilization. And how since then even penny-ante bullshit wars need to get recast in those grandiose terms.
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Nov 25, 2017 13:46
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Still around, but the French one is better because those men who lived there were technically instructors and helped trained soldiers and students I think. Still, props to the old school CP rocking it early 18th century style.
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Nov 25, 2017 14:46
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Kemper Boyd posted:Weren't the draftees a minority among those who fought in Vietnam? Yes, but this is somewhat skewed by encouragements to enlist so as to pick your service branch rather than being shipped off as infantry to the jungle.
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Nov 25, 2017 14:58
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SeanBeansShako posted:Still around, but the French one is better because those men who lived there were technically instructors and helped trained soldiers and students I think. 
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Nov 25, 2017 15:09
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HEY GUNS posted:It's not that I don't want to respond to you, it's that the entire rhetoric around "productive" or "nonproductive" wars does not seem to be there yet in the 17th century. The head of state either gets his/her war aims in the treaty or doesn't--many treaties return everything to the status quo ante bellum, even. But almost none of the soldiers seem to talk about what they do as accomplishing a particular purpose. (The exception, and fortunately this is likely to be in English if it exists, is people who were connected to the Elector Palatine and his family, who kept raising armies after he lost the Battle of White Mountain in 1620.) Instead, they say that they're working for a particular person. "I serve the King of Spain," etc. I suspect there are going to be quite a lot of examples in English in the case of the English Civil War. The Good Old Cause was an emotional thing for decades after (and forms part of the roots of the American revolution).
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Nov 25, 2017 15:49
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feedmegin posted:I suspect there are going to be quite a lot of examples in English in the case of the English Civil War. The Good Old Cause was an emotional thing for decades after (and forms part of the roots of the American revolution).
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Nov 25, 2017 16:43
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