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Back up your statement that he didn't like Wonder Woman before writing her. He seemed to like her plenty when we talked about the book. DC let him do whatever he wanted with the characters, even the New Gods, in the hopes he'd come up with something that people would be interested in. Wonder Woman has a tough time keeping an audience.
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Nov 25, 2017 07:31
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BrianWilly posted:He got paid money. Okay but that's not how comics work outside of promotional tie-ins Most comics are the result of writers pitching ideas to editors
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Nov 25, 2017 07:34
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Open Marriage Night posted:Back up your statement that he didn't like Wonder Woman before writing her. He seemed to like her plenty when we talked about the book. DC let him do whatever he wanted with the characters, even the New Gods, in the hopes he'd come up with something that people would be interested in. Wonder Woman has a tough time keeping an audience. This is not a case of picking and choosing certain parts of this character to keep or leave for a reboot in order to streamline her history or weed out elements that weren't working. This was tossing out the baby with the bathwater on an unparalleled scope in comics reboots, a case of someone saying "Meh, I don't care" in regards to every. Single. Aspect. Of every single Wonder Woman storyline in all seventy years before he got to touch this character. That does not describe the actions of someone who likes those aspects, and thereby the character herself. You do not get to bulldoze over all those unique, prominent, iconic features of a character -- sculpted from clay and blessed by the goddesses, ambassador of the fantastic Amazon race in their mission to spread peace and end warfare -- and then claim that you like the character under some pithy rationale that you've somehow kept her "heart"...whatever that's supposed to mean. Because the truth is that you don't like the character or her stories; at best you have a very superficial understanding of them which makes it a terrible idea to give you total leeway to completely reinvent her canon, and at worst all you like is some other unrelated character and some other unrelated stories that you've actually invented wholesale, and anyone who actually does love this character can see through that bullshit straightaway...which is a lesson DC had to learn the hard way with the abject failure of the New 52 and, arguably, the DCEU. I'll cheerfully talk about this stuff all day, which isn't even the tip of my grievances with Azzarello. How about you? BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Nov 25, 2017 |
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Nov 25, 2017 09:11
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Blockhouse posted:Okay but that's not how comics work outside of promotional tie-ins Well yeah and his idea of wonder women had very little to do with the actual character itself. Writers and fans in general seem to love the name more than the character which is how we get reimaginings on the first place.
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Nov 25, 2017 10:06
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Azzarello is also a lovely sexist jerkhole which is as good a reason as any to keep him far away from Diana
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Nov 25, 2017 13:27
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The entire Azarello run is tainted by the whole raping sailors and then murdering them thing for me. I don't think a single New 52 change tops that as far as really lovely grimdark changes goes.
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Nov 25, 2017 17:21
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I think Azzarello is overrated in the sense that he's one of those writers who is extremely dependant on his artists, above and beyond many other notable writers. Someone like Grant Morrison can get you engrossed in a comic drawn by an artist as horrible as Tony Daniel. Azzarello would be nowhere without the likes of Eduardo Rizzo or in this case Cliff Chiang. I'm not saying he brings nothing to the table, but like... I hated his Superman comics, and I think a lot of that is because of my dislike of Jim Lee. Imagine his Wonder Woman drawn by fuckin Dave Finch. It would have been a total disaster. I want to strike a middle ground between you guys, I guess, I think I still like it, but I need to reread it. It's been years. I'm starting to wonder how much I can chalk up to Chiang. Who do you all think is the best WW writer? George Perez? Greg Rucka? Marston?
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Nov 25, 2017 21:23
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Roth posted:I don't think a single New 52 change tops that as far as really lovely grimdark changes goes. I'll take a shot: N52 Superboy. If you don't know or have perhaps repressed your memories of N52 Superboy, I'll remind you. Jonathan Kent (Superman and Lois' son) dies as a toddler because as a human/alien hybrid, his DNA is hosed up. Only he doesn't die because this edgelord from the future shows up and saves him. The edgelord (whose name is Harvest) raises Jon to hate metahumans and they successfully kill all of them. But Jon starts dying again so Harvest travels further into the past to collect some DNA from Superman and Lois Lane in order to study it and fix Jon. And while he's at it, might as well get started killing all the metahumans again. So he makes a clone of Jon (with a little bit of DNA from some mystery source because I guess if you're messing with mad science you might as well stuff as much DNA in a subject as you can, right?  ) and sends him out to kill. Eventually the clone does a face turn, starts calling himself Kon, and joins the Teen Titans.tl;dr: N52 Superboy was a murderous clone of Superman's murderous son.
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Nov 25, 2017 22:27
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The best comic Azzarello has written is Doctor 13: Architecture and Morality.
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Nov 25, 2017 23:24
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The most dumbass (gently caress the term grimdark really) Nu52 thing was Joker getting his faced sliced off by some nobody idiot.
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Nov 25, 2017 23:40
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Mr Hootington posted:The best comic Azzarello has written is Doctor 13: Architecture and Morality. Truth right here.
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Nov 25, 2017 23:40
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Madkal posted:The most dumbass (gently caress the term grimdark really) Nu52 thing was Joker getting his faced sliced off by some nobody idiot. Then, didn't they make him look like Jared Leto after he got his face reattached?
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Nov 25, 2017 23:42
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Covok posted:Then, didn't they make him look like Jared Leto after he got his face reattached? Not really. Endgame Joker has got undercut hair, a different facial structure, no tats, no grill, and a surprisingly understated suit. Doctor Spaceman fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 25, 2017 23:54
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I don't hate Azzarello's Wonder Woman. I think it's pretty good for a number of reasons. However, this is a good opportunity to remind everyone that he wrote the script for The Killing Joke adaptation. This has been your annual reminder of the existence of The Killing Joke adaptation.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:03
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SomeJazzyRat posted:I don't hate Azzarello's Wonder Woman. I think it's pretty good for a number of reasons. The Killing joke adaptation?
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Nov 26, 2017 00:13
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TwoPair posted:I'll take a shot: N52 Superboy. If you don't know or have perhaps repressed your memories of N52 Superboy, I'll remind you. Jonathan Kent (Superman and Lois' son) dies as a toddler because as a human/alien hybrid, his DNA is hosed up. Only he doesn't die because this edgelord from the future shows up and saves him. The edgelord (whose name is Harvest) raises Jon to hate metahumans and they successfully kill all of them. But Jon starts dying again so Harvest travels further into the past to collect some DNA from Superman and Lois Lane in order to study it and fix Jon. And while he's at it, might as well get started killing all the metahumans again. So he makes a clone of Jon (with a little bit of DNA from some mystery source because I guess if you're messing with mad science you might as well stuff as much DNA in a subject as you can, right? Madkal posted:The most dumbass (gently caress the term grimdark really) Nu52 thing was Joker getting his faced sliced off by some nobody idiot. I can't see either of those as worse than adding rape, murder, and selling kids into slavery into the society that Wonder Woman comes from.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:19
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Lightning Lord posted:Who do you all think is the best WW writer? George Perez? Greg Rucka? Marston? I never read her work, but I remember a guy I followed on the internet constantly sung the praises of Gail Simone's Wonder Woman.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:19
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Mr Hootington posted:The best comic Azzarello has written is Doctor 13: Architecture and Morality. Yeah, again drawn by Cliff Chiang. Covok posted:I never read her work, but I remember a guy I followed on the internet constantly sung the praises of Gail Simone's Wonder Woman. It's good and all, it's just really short.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:20
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Lightning Lord posted:Yeah, again drawn by Cliff Chiang. Are you sure about that? Wikipedia says she's notable for being...oh, longest running female writer of the character. Guess, ironically, not a lot of women have written Wonder Woman. Wow, that's...odd. Like, that doesn't sound like it should be that way.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:28
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Also, yeah, Doctor 13 is probably the only Azarello comic I really like.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:30
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Covok posted:Are you sure about that? Wikipedia says she's notable for being...oh, longest running female writer of the character. Guess, ironically, not a lot of women have written Wonder Woman. I would lay odds there's a causal link between this and Wonder Woman's historic difficulties with coalescing into a consistently resonant character. For most of the time she's existed, there have been like maybe two, three men in the industry at any one time who were capable of writing a female lead effectively.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:50
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My favorite Wonder Woman is Legend of Wonder Woman. I liked the early issues of Rucka's Rebirth run that dealt with the early stuff but I ended up dropping the book completely. It was probably the biggest bust of Rebirth for me because I love Rucka and I know how much he loves Wonder Woman but even with that it just felt completely phoned in.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:59
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Azz's Wondy was fantastic and way more interesting than Rucka's mediocre second run. Also Azz wrote Lex Luthor: Man of Steel and Hundred Bullets so he's a perfectly fine writer in my view. And while I don't know how much of a role Azz had in writing it, Dark Knight: The Last Crusade was one of the best genuinely, unironically good Frank Miller stories in a long while.
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Nov 26, 2017 01:47
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Simone's WW is very good and I dont usually like Simone Rucka's is the best IMO though.
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Nov 26, 2017 01:49
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A close runner-up to N52 Superboy is N52 Kid Flash, aka Bar Torr, who initially appeared as a young kid answering to Bart who was from the future. Eventually it turns out that in the future, he was an orphan whose parents were wiped out by genocidal dictators, and just to survive he joined the future Hitler Youth to become a murderous soldier for the dictatorship. But then he got superpowers somehow [scene missing, literally, he has no memories and I don't think it was explained] and decided he should join the rebellion. They fought and killed a bunch of the 'bad guys' (and you know, civilians, but  ) but eventually he discovered his long lost sister worked for the dictatorship and he cared more about his sister than freedom so he went turncoat and helped the dictatorship wipe out all of his rebel friends. Because of that (and because you know, he was the leader of a bloody rebellion) the dictatorship mindwiped him and exiled him to the 21st century after he helped take out the rebels. All of this happened somehow before he was out of his teens, and he wakes up amnesiac in an orphanage.Eventually the future dictatorship came back to grab him to kill him or use him as a pawn to kill more rebels or something, and the Titans followed. He got his memory back and the other Titans learned about his [their words] "war atrocities" He's given a show trial and during it he orchestrates essentially a mass suicide bombing of the dictatorship to free him and kill all of the people in the totalitarian society, because turns out he really is a rebel at heart. This doesn't fully work (I mean, they kill a ton of people, but order is restored by the dictatorship) but I think a slightly less evil dictator takes the reins and is like "okay Bar Torr, you're a mass murderer but we don't believe in revenge, we're just going to exile you to a prison planet." Solstice, one of his teammates wants to go with him, but the judges don't believe in letting an innocent woman go to jail planets (as most dictators don't, I am sure) so she goes "well what about now?" and murders the judge. The new judge goes "hmm okay now you're a criminal, you're allowed to go to the prison planet with Bar Torr, you crazy kids might just work things out" and all of the other Titans are like "well at least they'll be happy together!" and go back to the 21st century.
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Nov 26, 2017 02:10
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that is some straight up Sonic the Hedgehog OC backstory poo poo
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Nov 26, 2017 02:28
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These old guys trauma from writing X-Men in the 90's just leaks on back.
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Nov 26, 2017 02:30
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Roth posted:I can't see either of those as worse than adding rape, murder, and selling kids into slavery into the society that Wonder Woman comes from. One of those things is realistically horrific and the other is over the top 14 year old kid trying to be edgy so he can write mid-90s image comics. Maybe comparing apples and sliced up faces oranges.
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Nov 26, 2017 02:35
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Let's just agree that it's all dumb and bad, and we should take up gardening instead of reading comics.
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Nov 26, 2017 02:44
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Madkal posted:One of those things is realistically horrific and the other is over the top 14 year old kid trying to be edgy so he can write mid-90s image comics. Maybe comparing apples and sliced up faces oranges. Is it "realistically horrific" that there would be armed cadres of women who jump on board ships, rape the sailors, and then kill them? Because to me it sounds exactly as ludicrous as the other stuff in addition to being a total desecration of Wonder Woman's backstory.
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Nov 26, 2017 02:48
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Edge & Christian posted:A close runner-up to N52 Superboy is N52 Kid Flash, aka Bar Torr, who initially appeared as a young kid answering to Bart who was from the future.
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Nov 26, 2017 02:48
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Also, the art makes clear that the Amazons get full on naked to do the rapes, so there's a slice of gonzo male fantasy in there as well.
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Nov 26, 2017 02:49
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Nessus posted:Were Teen Titans always like this? drat. There are a lot of bad Teen Titans comics. Wolfman/Perez-era, and Johns are worth reading, as is Peter David's Young Justice if you count that, but for the most part it's not great. The New 52 ones however, are a special kind of bad thanks to Scott Lobdell.
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Nov 26, 2017 02:51
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I liked azz's Wonder Woman. But I liked it better the first time I read it, when it was called Eddie Campbell's Bacchus.
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Nov 26, 2017 03:00
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Thranguy posted:I liked azz's Wonder Woman. But I liked it better the first time I read it, when it was called Eddie Campbell's Bacchus. I think most of it's actually good but the, "actually, the Amazons are evil rapists who kill men and sell male babies into slavery and Diana was just too stupid to ever think about where babies come from," bit is a very significant black mark on the work as a whole.
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Nov 26, 2017 03:38
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On other bad things about nu52 Teen Titans. Judge Murder Solstice was also ruined by the nu52. One of the reasons is being a judge murderer. But the main reason was that she was a very well received new character and when they brought her to the nu52 they went a complete 180 on everything about her. Somehow she went from this  to this  and no one vetoed it.
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Nov 26, 2017 03:41
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True. Just like his Hellblazer run was okay, apart from the dog rape.
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Nov 26, 2017 03:41
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just finished up a reread of wildcasts 3.0. the first time i read this i got into this expecting superhero stuff, and was confused, so that it took me a while to appreciate it. this time i knew exactly what was coming, and enjoyed it a lot more. it's an interesting comic. the premise is that one of the characters, spartan, from the old wildcats team comes into control of the corporation that backs their activities after the boss of the old wildcats dies/ascends to a higher plane of existence. he uses this corporation to aggressively try to reshape humanity for the better. he starts out with releasing products to break out dependency on fossil fuels, while also getting footholds in many other industries. this causes some of the powers-that-be to be rather unhappy with him. that's the main story. the drama there is because of spartan's fairly unemotional android personality. he can be a bit impassive, so there's some doubt as to whether what he wants takes account of how humanity actually is. you also have it considering questions like how a corporation could be an altruistic agent. the other stories are not too far behind in prominence - you have grifter chasing down and trying to help zealot, who's busy wiping out the assassin group she founded centuries ago. you also have agent wax, who works for the government outfit that keeps track of supers, who has some drama with his boss. the grifter story is good - aside from providing a lot of the action, his relationship with zealot is endearing, it not just being about his romantic affection but also his strong sense of loyalty. the wax story... would be good but wax uses his mind control powers to have sex with his boss' wife. this is really creepy. wax over time is depicted as a good guy, so it's really out of place. he does treat her well, and becomes quite attached to her, and apparently it's the only time he's ever used his powers like this. but it's hard for me to get over the fact he coerced someone into having sex with him. the only real black marks on this run are the wax stuff and the art. some of the art in this is garbage. the artists change, but for large segments of the run the artist is a guy who cannot draw loving faces. the eyes he puts on look like what an 8 year old who wasn't good at drawing would do. i really had to grit my teeth and bear it, but it was worth it. this is a serious comic that deals with interesting questions in a mature way. in terms of how it deals with the more serious themes the only knock i can put on it is that it's a bit dated - for example, some of spartan's comments make him sound like a creepy globalist ultra-neo-liberal, while the powers-that-be are old boys with oil money; as most people probably know nowadays, those are two sides of the same coin. good stuff. i also read casey's run on wildcats 2.0. solid enough, but he was dealing with baggage from the more straight-up superhero wildcats era and what he wrote seemed to be mostly getting all the pieces in position for 3.0.
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Nov 26, 2017 03:57
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Joe Casey's Wildcats run is one of my all-time favorite runs. I love what he started in Wildcats Vol. 2 with Sean Phillips' art, wrapping up the loose ends from the Jim Lee, Alan Moore, and Scott Lobdell runs before his, and culminating in Wildcats 3.0. I have to disagree with you on the art, though. Dustin Nguyen turned in some beautiful, stylized art on the first half of 3.0. (He's even better now; check out Descender to see how he has improved.) I always wished we could get action figures of Grifter in his more tactical gear (love the mask, hated Jim Lee's brown and black costume with the green trench coat over it) and Jack Marlowe in his shiny silver suit. Then again, I always liked Marlowe/Spartan's classic red, white, and blue costume too, with the "headsock" mask and jodhpurs, especially as drawn by Travis Charest in Wildcats Vol. 2. It made him look like a stylish, classic, World War II-era patriotic superhero and adventurer, which was the whole point.
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Nov 26, 2017 06:48
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nguyen's fine, but some of the others are really bad - sean phillips is a good artist in general but some of his work in this is absolutely awful (i recall his work in wildcats 2.0 being okay; it's like he busted his drawing hand or decided to challenge himself by illustrating with his toes, or something). duncan rouleau also sometimes fucks up proportions between characters - like tehre'll be one character who in one panel looks half the width he was relative to other people that he did in another panel. edit: doing a comics fantasy post here so don't mind me. something i would've liked to see them do after this is to continue looking at how things developed societally. the displacement of current industries, and what happens when others get into what spartan's doing. his advantage is the tech he has which everyone else doesn't have access to, and an energy generator in the bleed which produces infinite energy. but it was shown in other comics that others got the same idea as him, and were beginning to reverse-engineer technology - we saw this in the dan abnett run. that could've had all sorts of unexpected implications; some alien technology could work really bad with others, some could have terrible effects on human beings or the environment, it could start putting us in a position to start worrying some of the alien species we've seen... and the social and economic implications of what he's doing would be huge. maybe we could also look at the problem of halo corporation setting itself up as too-powerful, and how the corporation as a network of relationships and resources could get away from spartan's control, even with his machine abilities. going to reread the mr majestic stuff (including his crossover with dc) and sleeper now. good books. even the most conventional of these - abnett's majestic run - felt more weighty than almost all big 2 comic runs. Neurosis fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Nov 26, 2017 |
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Nov 26, 2017 08:39
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