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temple posted:I understand what you are saying. You understand what I'm saying. We disagree what supporting means. In what situation would be acceptable for her to engage conservatives? Where Contra wouldn't be providing some form of support with her presence? Mate, she's enabling these pieces of poo poo, who, if they had their way, would "do away" with not just trans people, but anyone they consider to be "degenerate". Contra touched the poo poo, now her hands are dirty, why shouldn't she be criticised and why is it that pointing this out makes people so angry? Even if her intentions are good, she's still turning up to and promoting a debate that gives scumbags money and support.
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Nov 27, 2017 16:19
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Ash Crimson posted:Mate, she's enabling these pieces of poo poo, who, if they had their way, would "do away" with not just trans people I get where you're coming from but three trans women up on stage at an event doesn't seem to have a clear line to what you're describing here. Trans conservatives exist, and trans-friendly conservatives exist, despite (or possibly because, humans are hosed up) what the more mainstream of the party says and does to and in reaction to trans people. To the credit of the people up on that stage, they've seen the near-instantaneous collapse of anti-gay marriage work within the mainstream of conservative activism after the Supreme Court ruling. It's not entirely impossible that eventually the GOP is forced to make a turn similar to that on trans rights, and these people want to be ready for when it does. I think it's likely the GOP will lose the cultural battles over trans folk the way they have gay folk, and we're seeing prescient youtubers trying to stake out the next Milo/Lindsey Graham spots. I don't think Contra is one of the people trying to do that, but I do think she realizes which way the wind is blowing.
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Nov 27, 2017 16:44
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temple posted:I understand what you are saying. You understand what I'm saying. We disagree what supporting means. In what situation would be acceptable for her to engage conservatives? Where Contra wouldn't be providing some form of support with her presence? It's probably somewhere well before "Appearing and advertising for an event that isn't even an actual debate but just a Q&A to raise funds for reactionary groups that aren't even official clubs on campus."
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Nov 27, 2017 16:49
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Well-meaning intellectuals debating the chuds gives them the appearance of legitimacy they crave - it makes the chuds look like intellectuals worthy of debate rather than mockery. Clown on them via YouTube videos like Shuan and HBomberGuy but don't bother debating them.
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Nov 27, 2017 17:05
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temple posted:I understand what you are saying. You understand what I'm saying. We disagree what supporting means. In what situation would be acceptable for her to engage conservatives? Where Contra wouldn't be providing some form of support with her presence? I'm fine with good-faith discussions and debates that aren't convened for the direct purpose of raising funds for holocaust deniers who think it's funny to antagonize feminists and black people.
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Nov 27, 2017 17:07
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Huzanko posted:Clown on them via YouTube videos like Shuan and HBomberGuy but don't bother debating them. Hell, Contra was my go-to example of how to do this approach. That's one reason why this whole thing is so frustrating.
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Nov 27, 2017 17:48
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i too am shocked that a youtube personality cares more about publicity than the political ideology that I have projected onto them
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Nov 27, 2017 17:48
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little munchkin posted:i too am shocked that a youtube personality cares more about publicity than the political ideology that I have projected onto them Cultivated Identity is bad no matter who or what you cultivate it around!?! vvv This too, she's a person, not a movement. vvv Gynocentric Regime fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 17:53
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little munchkin posted:i too am shocked that a youtube personality cares more about publicity than the political ideology that I have projected onto them I think the charge of seeking fame is unwarranted. She could easily grow a youtube army with videos and twitter posting.
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Nov 27, 2017 18:04
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Glazier posted:Cultivated Identity is bad no matter who or what you cultivate it around!?! being a racist/sexist for views is clearly worse than exaggerated liberal/sjw/whatever beliefs, but yeah all of these people are cut from the same cloth. business hammocks posted:I think the charge of seeking fame is unwarranted. She could easily grow a youtube army with videos and twitter posting. nah drama and controversy get you a lot more subscribers than delivering quality content, unfortunately
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Nov 27, 2017 18:26
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I'm seeing a couple of people in my timeline subtweet about it https://twitter.com/hannaharchy/status/935007461337108480 https://twitter.com/colettearrand/status/935195815735414785 edit: this one is bigger https://twitter.com/kat_blaque/status/935189796414042113 jackofarcades fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 18:31
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As a self confessed tone policing not-leftist it's not like she would have an intuitive understanding of "an injury to one is an injury to all" and why closing ranks is a thing we do.
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Nov 27, 2017 18:39
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selec posted:I get where you're coming from but three trans women up on stage at an event doesn't seem to have a clear line to what you're describing here. yeah, but those people are total bootlickers who openly advocate against their own rights. like, off the top of my head, blaire white spends a lot of time arguing that trans teens shouldn't be allowed to transition, that non-binary people are stupid, that trans lesbians aren't really trans... the list goes on. trans conservatives and "trans-friendly" conservatives are only okay with allowing the good ones who ask for the bare minimum from society and otherwise toe the conservative line to exist and transition. she's going up on stage to probably be mocked and shouted down by blaire and theryn for the amusement of a highly conservative audience, whom she is also raising fuckin money for. ...but anyway if anyone wants to see blaire's stupid ideas about trans kids get shot down, zinnia jones ripped her to shreds a while back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUbiFH-8-DU (part 1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os4sHyVbJcs (part 2)
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Nov 27, 2017 18:50
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noether posted:yeah, but those people are total bootlickers who openly advocate against their own rights. like, off the top of my head, blaire white spends a lot of time arguing that trans teens shouldn't be allowed to transition, that non-binary people are stupid, that trans lesbians aren't really trans... the list goes on. trans conservatives and "trans-friendly" conservatives are only okay with allowing the good ones who ask for the bare minimum from society and otherwise toe the conservative line to exist and transition. she's going up on stage to probably be mocked and shouted down by blaire and theryn for the amusement of a highly conservative audience, whom she is also raising fuckin money for. I agree on most of what you're saying here, but I also think that it's the wedge. Blair White is the thin edge of the wedge. But once that wedge is in, the breach cannot be sealed. Blair White in and of herself is a poo poo. But she's their poo poo, and pretty soon the argument won't be "trans=bad" the way that the argument used to be "gay=bad" it'll be more like "trans and weird" or "trans and socialist" as the bar for badness. Blair White, whether she knows it or not, is doing more for trans acceptance and the eventual disempowerment of the same things she argues for than she realizes. She can make arguments about the details, but conservatives aren't even ready to have those arguments yet. So by being trans and conservative, she's already undermining their social program; probably accidentally. The arguments she makes about when people should be allowed to transition, trans lesbians, all that? Pointless, and even self-defeating when speaking to conservative audiences; conservatives aren't ready to have that argument, so just by her presence and declaring for "their team" she undermines much of the bigotry they've relied on against trans people in some recent election cycles. Before, you couldn't have a trans conservative, because conservatives would not allow them that space. Now you have trans conservatives, as long as they play nice. It pushes the mainstream away from having as easy a boogeyman, which prevents them from firing up their base as much as they'd like to, while still trying to maintain the same socially conservative base. So it puts the mainstream GOP in a bind; pushes them away from the most violent, bigoted rhetoric and poo poo like bathroom bills will eventually be considered crude and pointless and bigoted, even by conservatives; it also, however, continues to drive mainstream acceptance of trans folk (even if just a bit) because there are trans conservatives, but also drives the vast majority of trans and trans-supporting voters into the arms of the Democratic party. Trans conservatives, much like black conservatives, won't drive trans (or black) people to join the GOP in any meaningful number; but they will force the GOP to pitch their rhetoric in such a way that it just dogwhistles, not hollers. Pushing conservatives to accept transfolk is a strong, smart political tactic to rob them of some of their bigoted arguments and to divide their base.
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Nov 27, 2017 19:07
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On the other hand the useful idiot is very good at ensuring it never gets much further than the thin end of the wedge. I'm not super convinced that she's doing much good at all. I think that the victories won on the part of LGB and T advancement are wholly down to the people actually advocating for them, not class traitorous shills.
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Nov 27, 2017 19:12
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I loving love debates about pretty much anything, as long as at least one of the parties is smart enough that half of it is worth listening to (I even thoroughly enjoyed hearing a flat earther go after a scientist during Art Bell's last brief return). I'm even sympathetic to the argument that there's value in a debate exposing people in the middle to ideas and perspectives they might not be familiar with. That said, noether posted:whom she is also raising fuckin money for. this definitely bothers me. If it's just bickering on Twitch and Youtube that's one thing, but I recall reading that the Bill Nye debate gave Ken Ham and his Creation Museum a massive, massive bump in attention and donations.
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Nov 27, 2017 19:18
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FWIW I threw a ton of shade at contra earlier, but above post about how having a trans person around who agrees with you means you have to dogwhistle more rings true for my experience.
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Nov 27, 2017 19:19
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idk, if she was like, conservative in general except for about trans stuff, I could see that as being useful for us leftytrans in the way you're describing, because I guess that would help separate transgender class consciousness and conservatism a bit. what blaire and co. accomplish, though, is being the token member of a marginalized group that shares the conservative stance on their own group. blaire white's decision to turn against other trans people just makes the rest of us look like raving loons for asking for better treatment, because whenever one of us tries, the right can just look to blaire to say "nah, those people are just crazy libs, don't pay attention to them" she and other token minorities provide the same service to conservatives as scientists who deny climate change noether fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 19:27
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noether posted:yeah, but those people are total bootlickers who openly advocate against their own rights. like, off the top of my head, blaire white spends a lot of time arguing that trans teens shouldn't be allowed to transition, that non-binary people are stupid, that trans lesbians aren't really trans... the list goes on. trans conservatives and "trans-friendly" conservatives are only okay with allowing the good ones who ask for the bare minimum from society and otherwise toe the conservative line to exist and transition. she's going up on stage to probably be mocked and shouted down by blaire and theryn for the amusement of a highly conservative audience, whom she is also raising fuckin money for. It's not just going to be Blair and Theryn. It's a panel with a Q&A section, so they're just throwing her to the wolves. selec posted:I agree on most of what you're saying here, but I also think that it's the wedge. Blair White is the thin edge of the wedge. But once that wedge is in, the breach cannot be sealed. Blair White in and of herself is a poo poo. But she's their poo poo, and pretty soon the argument won't be "trans=bad" the way that the argument used to be "gay=bad" it'll be more like "trans and weird" or "trans and socialist" as the bar for badness. I'm going to be blunt here, black conservatives have done absolutely nothing to temper the GOP's rhetoric toward black people, and log cabin republicans had absolutely nothing to do with the general acceptance of gay people as it stands today, because respectability politics has never worked and will never work for anyone outside of amusing the people doing the oppressing.
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Nov 27, 2017 19:28
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if you aren't a stupidly rich cishet white man and you're a conservative you're a useful idiot.
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Nov 27, 2017 19:35
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Goon Danton posted:I'm going to be blunt here, black conservatives have done absolutely nothing to temper the GOP's rhetoric toward black people, and log cabin republicans had absolutely nothing to do with the general acceptance of gay people as it stands today I don't think either of us can say for certain if either of these things are true, but I know for sure: When bigoted people are around someone they're bigoted towards, nine times out of ten it causes them to speak and act less outwardly bigoted. That's pretty much the crux of what I'm saying here; the presence and acceptance of the existence of black/gay/trans conservatives forces mainstream conservative political groups and media outlets into a smaller box of what they can say, while also having a seemingly negligible effect on actual migration to those political parties or movements by those minority groups. As for the idea that "conservative scientists" give cover to climate denial: you're ceding the debate when you say that if somehow every single scientist on earth would just say the right things conservatives would finally get it together and stop denying climate change. But that's not what would happen. Did Obama, short of being black and having a non-American citizen for a father, give any real evidence that he was a gay Kenyan communist who hated America? No, not a shred of evidence for that, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. Did that even present the slightest obstacle to conservatives calling him a gay Kenyan communist? No, not a bit. So the idea that a trans conservative existing somehow is the excuse they need to be lovely is absurdly naive; they were going to be lovely anyway. What you do is encourage that conservative trans person to speak up and be visible in the party, because if they're going to be dumb, they may as well be dumb in ways that force the party to behave more the way you'd like them to, even if only a little. edit So it's not respectability politics for Democrats, it's forcing respectability politics onto the white, cis mainstream Republican supporter; he can't say his slurs anymore, can't do a lot of things he used to, because that's what respectability politics, thanks to black/trans/gay conservatives, now expects from him.
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Nov 27, 2017 19:37
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On the other hand when they actively oppose the welfare of the entire rest of their class they are working to legitimize those beliefs in their political peers. See, even our pet <whatever> thinks it too!
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Nov 27, 2017 19:40
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OwlFancier posted:On the other hand when they actively oppose the welfare of the entire rest of their class they are working to legitimize those beliefs in their political peers. Again: what makes you think they wouldn't argue for opposing the welfare of the entire rest of their class anyway? Nobody is convinced by those arguments, they are only reinforced in what they already believe. You are ceding the terms of the debate to them. "Oh, if only black/trans/gay conservatives didn't exist! Then the right would finally have no arguments!" This isn't about us and how we feel about trans people and conservatives, though we try to make everything about ourselves on the internet. It's about forcing conservatives into a tighter bind around identity politics. Identity politics is the soup we're all in now; Richard Spencer realized this before a lot of leftists and liberals did. But now that we're all in, it's time to force them to eat the soup. And eating the soup means they get to say "we've even got trans people on our side!" or "lol traps" but they don't get to say both. It's not respectability politics for us, it's forcing respectability politics onto them. selec fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 19:45
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Groovelord Neato posted:if you aren't a stupidly rich cishet white man and you're a conservative you're a useful idiot. temple fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 19:51
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temple posted:That's kind of my point. Where do we say something is aiding the enemy and when is it engagement? A bunch of lefties talking to each other, about each other, in the own spaces is navel gazing. I totally understand what an useful idiot is but I don't think Contra is near that yet. The I more read about Contra and this event, yeah, its makes me concerned about her future and intentions. I'll be more than glad to criticize people like Contra after they prove to be sympathetic or uncritical of the alt-right. He's not talking about Contra with that post, he's talking about Blair White and the other conservative trans people.
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Nov 27, 2017 19:53
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WampaLord posted:He's not talking about Contra with that post, he's talking about Blair White and the other conservative trans people. Yeah, but calling someone an idiot never did a lick of good to change their opinion. Deciding that everyone who disagrees with you is just too dumb to get it is a thought-terminating cliche worthy of a twelve year old. This is why a lot of folks make good faith arguments to make materialist-leftist arguments your tentpole and to push identity to the side. It's very easy to look at someone's bank account and tell them what their material interests are, and who will or will not support them. When you happen upon trans people who are conservatives who work to restrict the rights of trans people, there's no Excel spreadsheet or webpage calculator that can help you parse that out. I know who to vote for based on my paycheck; but my values? That's where poo poo gets weird. But you obviously need to be able to have that conversation, because not everybody's a materialist, much as we'd wish they were.
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Nov 27, 2017 19:58
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selec posted:What you do is encourage that conservative trans person to speak up and be visible in the party, because if they're going to be dumb, they may as well be dumb in ways that force the party to behave more the way you'd like them to, even if only a little. most of these sorts of people are okay with endlessly capitulating to the right on their rights and treatment. they're not challenging anything. like, sure, I'll buy that conservatives will look to a token minority to see how they should treat that particular brand of marginalized person, but if said token comes back and says "nah, just keep doing what you're doing, man," that does a lot of damage because it legitimizes the discrimination they experience. it makes it look like they're doing nothing wrong and anyone complaining is being unreasonable. like when blaire tells conservatives not to sweat the pronouns, that does a hell of a lot of damage to the rest of us and strengthens their belief honestly I think it would help a hell of a lot if conservative trans people openly stood up for themselves, because then it would seem like the message of trans acceptance was coming from inside the party. as it is now, if conservatrans and leftytrans are so severely divided on their own treatment, it turns the issue into a partisan one edit: quote:. And eating the soup means they get to say "we've even got trans people on our side!" or "lol traps" but they don't get to say both. dude, you have not spent much time online recently if you don't think those two ideas can coexist. when the trans people on that side side say calling people "traps" is okay, that makes that poo poo sound okay to the average conservative noether fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 19:59
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selec posted:I don't think either of us can say for certain if either of these things are true, but I know for sure: When a bigot has a black friend, he restrains himself from using the n-word, but only when his black friend is in the room. It won't stop them from acting the same way they were when that person isn't literally present, it won't stop their fans from acting that way, and it won't stop them from pushing policies that hurt that group. On that last point, it's almost a requirement for conservative "tokens" to champion the causes that hurt whatever group they represent. Blair White wouldn't be as popular as she is if she weren't positioning herself as the arbiter of who "counts" as trans, and Sheriff Clarke wouldn't get speaking gigs if he didn't embody the viciously racist police system. selec posted:So it's not respectability politics for Democrats, it's forcing respectability politics onto the white, cis mainstream Republican supporter; he can't say his slurs anymore, can't do a lot of things he used to, because that's what respectability politics, thanks to black/trans/gay conservatives, now expects from him. Respectability politics is a one way street. It's an old old idea that you can reduce the bigotry against your kind by acting the way the bigots want you to. Act "respectable," share their beliefs, and (crucially) punch down on anyone from your group who doesn't do this for "making us look bad." The oppressors will never return the favor. The existence of black conservatives didn't shame them out of fantasizing about driving through BLM protests, Milo hanging out at their rallies didn't stop the 4chan alt-right from calling everyone fags, and Blair White's youtube channel won't stop them from hating trans people.
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Nov 27, 2017 20:01
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It's just so baffling to me that the naked worship of power could be so compelling to people who are currently having it exercised against them. I don't and never will believe that politics is a function of psychology over material conditions, but god drat Blaire White makes me question that.
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Nov 27, 2017 20:04
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selec posted:Again: what makes you think they wouldn't argue for opposing the welfare of the entire rest of their class anyway? Nobody is convinced by those arguments, they are only reinforced in what they already believe. Of course they'd still oppose it, my point is that I don't buy that having a patsy on hand actively helps the members of that class. I think they're simply another tool they'll use to poo poo on the rest of us and their collaborator mates will do it right along with them and laugh and get rich off it.
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Nov 27, 2017 20:08
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business hammocks posted:It's just so baffling to me that the naked worship of power could be so compelling to people who are currently having it exercised against them. I don't and never will believe that politics is a function of psychology over material conditions, but god drat Blaire White makes me question that. Dude, I grew up in the Midwest, there are tons of people voting based on plenty of considerations other than material. I’m talking welfare-using evangelical single issue abortion voters, and plenty of 'em
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Nov 27, 2017 20:08
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business hammocks posted:It's just so baffling to me that the naked worship of power could be so compelling to people who are currently having it exercised against them. I don't and never will believe that politics is a function of psychology over material conditions, but god drat Blaire White makes me question that. Material conditions are very important but they can lead to a lot of different things. Fascism and communism both blossom under hardship. Psychology, ideology, things like that are what determine what the material conditions inspire in people, even among purely materialist people, which isn't everyone, as above.
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Nov 27, 2017 20:10
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agreeing to attend an event like that comes off as like a form of self harm to me
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Nov 27, 2017 20:21
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OwlFancier posted:Material conditions are very important but they can lead to a lot of different things. Fascism and communism both blossom under hardship. Psychology, ideology, things like that are what determine what the material conditions inspire in people, even among purely materialist people, which isn't everyone, as above. That's the key. Material conditions set the general framework for what will happen, culture and psychology will fill in the details. A material situation might set off revolts in Algeria and Italy simultaneously, but the exact makeup and goals of the rebels in those countries will be vastly different.
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Nov 27, 2017 20:24
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selec posted:. And eating the soup means they get to say "we've even got trans people on our side!" or "lol traps" but they don't get to say both. Nah you stupid gently caress they'll just do both because when it comes to the issues of non-white non-cis non-straight people the right are never ever ever EVER making any good faith arguments or talking with any real moral or political core. It's all resentment and hatred and bigotry and you chose an example where they're doing exactly the opposite of what you assume ;rational actors' would do. gently caress off.
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Nov 27, 2017 20:26
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If being trans is a bad thing, why is Blaire White still trans then? 
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Nov 27, 2017 20:57
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Nah you stupid gently caress they'll just do both because when it comes to the issues of non-white non-cis non-straight people the right are never ever ever EVER making any good faith arguments or talking with any real moral or political core. It's all resentment and hatred and bigotry and you chose an example where they're doing exactly the opposite of what you assume ;rational actors' would do. gently caress off. Hey there, fellow flawed vessel. I don't think you understood my argument, but as you've laid out your premise here, I disagree: the first step to getting a conservative to lay off a minority group is to get them to at least pretend they care. That's how you start with Reagan officials ignoring or just joking about AIDS victims but eventually get to GW Bush sponsoring and genuinely fighting for PEPFAR. It wasn't perfect, but it was a huge step from where they were. You don't get a whole world's worth of problems fixed by believing about half the world's population don't matter, won't help, and can't be made to matter or to help.
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Nov 27, 2017 21:16
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Goon Danton posted:That's the key. Material conditions set the general framework for what will happen, culture and psychology will fill in the details. "Rich people hate gay people like THIS, but poor people hate gay people like thiiiiiiiiiiiis."
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Nov 27, 2017 21:17
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You can wait for them to die and be outnumbered by the remainder though, that seems to work.
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Nov 27, 2017 21:18
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selec posted:"Rich people hate gay people like THIS, but poor people hate gay people like thiiiiiiiiiiiis." You shouldn't just quote my posts and then write whatever unrelated stuff pops into your mind. I'm not your twitter account.
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Nov 27, 2017 21:59
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