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NecroMonster posted:One thing that keeps nagging at me about the Stormlight Archives and Honor in specific is that, while typically in fiction swearing an Oath(making a pact, signing a contract) is a way of gaining power, usually directly from the guarantors of the contract, breaking an Oath usually gives the entity granting the contract quite a lot of power over the one who broke the thing. Well, the spren are certainly getting something from their side of it.
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Nov 27, 2017 02:04
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Tunicate posted:Well, the spren are certainly getting something from their side of it. This is a Sanderson story. The magic system is codified and rule-bound. The ethics of oaths isn’t really important compared to following the system guidelines (in this case that Honor = keeping promises, so getting spiritual power relies on getting that Connection from making more restrictive paths), and ideally finding magic the gathering style combos to break them.
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Nov 27, 2017 02:12
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Contracts usually come with penalties for those who break them. So... what's the penalty for breaking those contracts? Mere forfeiture of the power the contract granted would be extraordinarily lenient, especially when you consider that those breaking those oaths are Odium's people originally. The only real penalty we've seen is suffered by the Spren, rather than the one that actually broke the drat contract in the first place. This seems like an omission, and Sanders isn't the sort of omit things on accident.
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Nov 27, 2017 03:36
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NecroMonster posted:The only real penalty we've seen is suffered by the Spren, rather than the one that actually broke the drat contract in the first place. a broken bond is permanent and there's no way you can do magic again, that's a pretty bad consequence. kaladin's situation was different for Plot Reasons but he would've been extremely dead many times over if he had not clawed that bond back into place by nearly killing himself. i don't think we're going to see some new 'penalties' on human bond-breakers we don't know about yet
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Nov 27, 2017 04:18
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Well they mention that you need to be to an extent a damaged person, cracked in the soul to form the Nahel bond. Presumably forming that bond to an extent helps you, maybe just by facilitating change and recovery. Removal of that patch might cause regression or just trauma. It’s probably not a good thing to break that bond just from a personal mental health point of view.
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Nov 27, 2017 13:01
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Brandon has talked about how the insane have cracked souls that more readily pay attention to leakage from the cognitive and spiritual domains. I'd argue that the spiritual bond between a spren and a surgebinder need not necessarily cost the human anything if breaking oaths simply reverts the human's spiritweb back to its original state. Your house doesn't change when you disconnect it from power service beyond just going dark.
Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 13:20
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HidaO-Win posted:Well they mention that you need to be to an extent a damaged person, cracked in the soul to form the Nahel bond.
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Nov 27, 2017 13:44
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It's worth noting on that front that re: the Recreance, it isn't totally clear who is actually breaking oaths. The Stormfather and the Spren clearly fully blame humans for being oathbreakers and the Spren are the ones to suffer for it but the cause of the humans' actions which is learning that they are the invaders and that the Parshendi are the rightful inhabitants of the planet and humans brough Odium predates that. That was information they were not given and in that sense they were misled. Humans speak the oaths but Kaladin makes the point that abandoning the Shardplate and blades was simply the expression of that bond being broken. The Stormfather even explains it, saying that Honour was no longer capable of explaining and encouraging those knights but had gone as mad as the Heralds. So it seems quite possible to me that humans in the Recreance didn't get punished because they weren't the real cause of that breaking of faith. The Spren are pissed about it because it was their relatives and friends who suffered the direct consequences of it.
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Nov 27, 2017 17:15
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MrNemo posted:It's worth noting on that front that re: the Recreance, it isn't totally clear who is actually breaking oaths. The Stormfather and the Spren clearly fully blame humans for being oathbreakers and the Spren are the ones to suffer for it but the cause of the humans' actions which is learning that they are the invaders and that the Parshendi are the rightful inhabitants of the planet and humans brough Odium predates that. That was information they were not given and in that sense they were misled. Humans speak the oaths but Kaladin makes the point that abandoning the Shardplate and blades was simply the expression of that bond being broken. The Stormfather even explains it, saying that Honour was no longer capable of explaining and encouraging those knights but had gone as mad as the Heralds. So it seems quite possible to me that humans in the Recreance didn't get punished because they weren't the real cause of that breaking of faith. The Spren are pissed about it because it was their relatives and friends who suffered the direct consequences of it. There's a repeated theme of free will being the crucial aspect of humanity. Shards are bound by their natures, and Spren are bound by their natures, and even the Singers are bound by their natures. Humanity are the only ones who can think and act outside the box. The Stormfather didn't say that Honor went mad, just that Honor embodied his Shard too entirely, and became obsessed with rules over compassion and morality. Pretty much the exact same thing that happened to Nale. The Recreance is basically the day that Odium won, and humans told Honor to get bent for being a hypocrite, but a few humans kept to the pact anyway, so Odium has to break them, too.
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Nov 27, 2017 17:49
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I read Mistborn 1-3 a couple years ago and just finished up Oathbringer. What's the best order for getting more of a feel for Cosmere stuff in general? Warbreaker -> Mistborn era 2 -> secret history? Oh and is there a good re-read of the first trilogy around to refresh my memory?
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Nov 27, 2017 21:35
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NmareBfly posted:I read Mistborn 1-3 a couple years ago and just finished up Oathbringer. What's the best order for getting more of a feel for Cosmere stuff in general? Warbreaker -> Mistborn era 2 -> secret history? I'd do Warbreaker > Mistborn era 2 > Arcanum Unbounded, which is a collection of novellas and short stories from around the Cosmere. It includes both Edgedancer and Secret History (among others), and each story has a preface written by an in-universe historian talking about its place in the Cosmere. Same character who writes the appendices at the end of all the books, actually. Elantris is also probably worth (re)reading if you're not burnt out on Sanderson after the other stuff.
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Nov 27, 2017 21:43
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I missed it if it was discussed in all the Oathbringer spoilers, but I have a question about Lift: How was she able to force her way into Dalinar's vision? Maybe it wasn't even answered/eluded to, but as soon as I finished the book I was like, "OK time to reread it because I feel like there's so much I probably missed".
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Nov 28, 2017 14:38
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Sab669 posted:I missed it if it was discussed in all the Oathbringer spoilers, but I have a question about Lift: She's Awesome.
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Nov 28, 2017 14:44
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EVGA Longoria posted:She's Awesome. this, and she's someone Cultivation has taken an extremely personal interest in giving special powers
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Nov 28, 2017 14:55
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So spoilers from the Wikia it says she exists partially in the Cognitive Realm (which is how she interacts with Wyndle). So the Nightmother (or Cultivation?) gave her that 'ability', and the vision probably takes place in that realm so she probably just saw it and went to go investigate? How do we even know she exists in that realm beyond being able to interact with Spren? The Wikia didn't have a direct footnote/source for that
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Nov 28, 2017 15:01
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I had forgotten that a short story to bridge book 2 and 3 came out so I had to finish that up before starting the new novel, but it made me think, this really is just Sanderson writing a story based on his Exalted campaign, isn't it?
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Nov 28, 2017 15:31
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Sab669 posted:So spoilers from the Wikia it says she exists partially in the Cognitive Realm (which is how she interacts with Wyndle). So the Nightmother (or Cultivation?) gave her that 'ability', and the vision probably takes place in that realm so she probably just saw it and went to go investigate? How do we even know she exists in that realm beyond being able to interact with Spren? The Wikia didn't have a direct footnote/source for that there's no reason we know that she should be able to be in those visions, they're way different than the existing-partially-in-the-cognitive thing that Brandon has confirmed. after seeing that Dalinar flashback where Cultivation personally intervened when he saw the Nightmother, i suspect something similar happened with Lift (there's also a line from Wyndle where he mentions she's been favored or blessed by their mother) Personally, I assume her being in the visions is the big C's personal influence in trying to figure out what Odium is doing. I'm pretty sure that was the same vision where he basically says 'Once you free me, the first thing I'll do is murder Cultivation.' Also, knowing what we do now, Lift may also have been there to see whether Odium's plan to corrupt Dalinar was actually working.
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Nov 28, 2017 15:32
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I figured she just followed Gawx through Connection.
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Nov 28, 2017 16:09
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mossyfisk posted:I figured she just followed Gawx through Connection. This is probably the most accurate idea. She rezzed him, so she likely has a close Connection with him from ReGrowth. Plus she is somewhat multidimensional from Cultivation's tweaking....though the Connection is likely the key part that allows her to follow Gawx.
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Nov 28, 2017 23:13
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Lot of redacted up in here so I'll be taking my leave. Just swung by to say that I've just finished Part 3 and Shallan is somehow worse in this book than she was in WoK. The conversations between her and Wit are probably the most insufferable scenes in the whole series. Still lots of dope poo poo though, going to keep reading.
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Nov 29, 2017 00:16
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Re:Lift: Her first appearance in the visions, the Stormfather makes a pretty straightforward comment about Lift. He just doesn't specifically name who's responsible for Lift's special abilities. Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I had forgotten that a short story to bridge book 2 and 3 came out so I had to finish that up before starting the new novel, but it made me think, this really is just Sanderson writing a story based on his Exalted campaign, isn't it? This would make a whole lot of sense. Sorta like how Crackdown agents are Hero-tier Scion characters, complete with Epic attributes that cap at 4 (because at 5 you're moving in to Demigod territory).
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Nov 29, 2017 00:30
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Lot of redacted up in here so I'll be taking my leave. Just swung by to say that I've just finished Part 3 and Shallan is somehow worse in this book than she was in WoK. The conversations between her and Wit are probably the most insufferable scenes in the whole series. Yeah, I'm still not a fan of his characterization. Everyone is basically the same embodiment of his idea of reasonableness with different perspectives and a gimmick. I'm hoping it'll work itself out but most of his growth seems to go into plotting and doing mtg combos with his magic systems.
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Nov 29, 2017 05:34
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Brandon says otherwise, bit Warbreaker snd The Emperor's Soul are essentially required reading if you actually want to know what's going on in hints and innuendos instead of the big End Of Book Spoonfeeding
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Nov 29, 2017 13:23
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Potato Salad posted:Brandon says otherwise, bit Warbreaker snd The Emperor's Soul are essentially required reading if you actually want to know what's going on in hints and innuendos instead of the big End Of Book Spoonfeeding where's emperor soul come into things right now?
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Nov 29, 2017 13:25
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The Oathbringer beta readers did an AMA on reddit yesterday: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/7g4bvv/oathbringer_we_are_the_oathbringer_beta_reader/
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Nov 29, 2017 13:39
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Lot of redacted up in here so I'll be taking my leave. Just swung by to say that I've just finished Part 3 and Shallan is somehow worse in this book than she was in WoK. The conversations between her and Wit are probably the most insufferable scenes in the whole series. I actually liked her a fair bit in WoK/WoR but the whole dissociative disorder is just... Difficult to read? Frustrating? I'm really not even sure what the word is. I think it's a genuinely interesting disorder -- it's just not what I want in this kind of book. The magic and world building is complex enough, never mind throwing in a person's identity crisis. Definitely liked her development the least.
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Nov 29, 2017 14:51
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I find the Shallan chapters to be much more annoying than I did in either WoK or WoR. I'm only in part 3, but I think it's mostly because of Veil. I think the main Shallan personality is a lot more interesting than either of her others, and the Veil one shows up just as much as Shallan does.
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Nov 29, 2017 23:09
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Agreed. I like the concept of Shallan's character having multiple personas to call upon in useful ways, but I'm not a fan of how it's executed. I felt similarly about young-Dalinar in some of the flashbacks. Sanderson just writes the other versions of these characters (Blackthorn, Veil, Radiant, etc.) pretty flat, often invoking a single archetype in a way that's not very interesting even when the plot points they're involved in are. One of the things that both characters also suffered from was a lack of other POV characters interacting with their alternate/former personalities. Conveying a character from only their own perspective forces Sanderson to tell EVERYTHING he wants us to know about them rather than getting to show us much, and between this and the flat characterizations provided via internal monologue, it was pretty clumsy compared to how he's developed characters in previous books. Hopefully this isn't as big of a problem moving forward due to how Shallan seems to have figured out at least partially how to use her personas as tools rather than let them take over as a kind of unhealthy escapism, and Blackthorn flashbacks should be largely over.
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Nov 30, 2017 00:13
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rafikki posted:The Oathbringer beta readers did an AMA on reddit yesterday: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/7g4bvv/oathbringer_we_are_the_oathbringer_beta_reader/ Wherein the beta readers need to get permission from Brandon's personal assistant before they answer any questions. Well that's probably the worst possible way to conduct an AMA.
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Nov 30, 2017 00:17
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I only saw a few questions where they went to get approval.
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Nov 30, 2017 00:20
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should just turn every drat character into wayne
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Nov 30, 2017 02:15
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And the rest into Lopen.
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Nov 30, 2017 02:30
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I've read Shallan's OB story as less of a disassociative disorder thing and more as a microcosm of young adult coming-of-age issues.
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Nov 30, 2017 02:58
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Question about Oathgates. The two spren that control the gates in shadesmar tell Shallan to fuckoff when she tries to use the gates on that side. They say that humans are banned. However, obviously they've been using the oathgates the whole time. I take it that when the Radiants use their shardblades to activate the gates that their Spren are actual activating the gates in shadesmar so the gate spren don't realize that humans are using them? Probably an obvious answer, but just curious as to whether people have that same assumption.
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Nov 30, 2017 14:03
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TheMirage posted:Question about Oathgates. I got the impression that it was just that oathgate where the spren were saying gently caress off, but I could have misunderstood. I'm going back through it in audiobook form now because i'm sure I missed stuff powering through the text version when it first came out.
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Nov 30, 2017 14:28
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Seemed to me that it was only travel into and out of Shadesmar that was blocked.
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Nov 30, 2017 15:16
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ConfusedUs posted:Seemed to me that it was only travel into and out of Shadesmar that was blocked. Oh yea that would make sense. Has it been confirmed that shadesmar exists cosmere wide or only within the influence of Odium/Cultivation? Azure notes she passed through it to get to Roshar, and it is presumed Vasher did the same. I was wondering if it was some cosmere wide travel network
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Nov 30, 2017 15:44
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TheMirage posted:Oh yea that would make sense. It's cosmere-wide. That's how all of the world hopping characters get around.
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Nov 30, 2017 16:06
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:It's cosmere-wide. That's how all of the world hopping characters get around. Some of them (Ones Above referenced in Sixth of the Dust) also get around in the physical realm on spaceships, but that's set pretty far ahead in the Cosmere timeline compared to the other books.
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Nov 30, 2017 16:21
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New Yorp New Yorp posted:It's cosmere-wide. That's how all of the world hopping characters get around. If you haven't already, read Mistborn Secret History for more on that. The different worlds have different effects on the Spiritual Realm.
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Nov 30, 2017 16:33
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