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A beautiful way to celebrate the Golden Witch's birthday. Thank you for everything you've done. I'm really going to miss this.
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Nov 29, 2017 16:44
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| # ? May 17, 2024 19:53 |
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And now that we're officially done, here is a handy chart that explains everything you need to know about the layers of Umineko! (the joke is that this chart is confusing as hell)
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Nov 29, 2017 16:50
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This LP introduced me to something grand and amazing. Much love and thanks, Prof.
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Nov 29, 2017 16:58
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Well, the endings seem to be operating in two different Primes. I suppose it's time to let the mackerel rest. Goodnight, Ushiromiya family.
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Nov 29, 2017 16:59
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Behold, the real truth of October 5th, 1986.
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Nov 29, 2017 17:07
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Thank you for this LP, Prof. It’s been such a ride, and I definitely feel like a different person than I was when I stumbled upon the thread mid-way through episode 2.
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Nov 29, 2017 17:11
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Thank you for this LP, Prof. It’s been such a ride, and I definitely feel like a different person than I was when I stumbled upon the thread mid-way through episode 2. It's been so long that I've legitimately forgotten your former username.
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Nov 29, 2017 17:13
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:It's been so long that I've legitimately forgotten your former username. Haha! Let’s keep it this way.
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Nov 29, 2017 17:16
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Congratulations! Your Battler (and yes I'm calling him by his old name for a reason) has upgraded from incompetent idiot to cowardly idiot! How ironic that his dumb heroics would cause him to lose his memories and then, once those recollections slowly trickled back to him, he couldn't accept them. How could anyone? Even Ange almost committed suicide over the idea that she was the sole survivor of a big hosed up family who murdered each other, her parents being the primary culprits. Battler not only would have to live with that, but that he wasn't who he thought he was (not only was he not Hachijo Toya, he was also not Ayumu's biological child). On top of that, he realized that he survived only through dumb luck and the childish infatuation of a severely unhappy person who couldn't live with the tragic circumstances of their reality and clung onto the idea of being rescued by someone, anyone (and latched onto him because of a careless promise he made as a 12-year-old), but it was this very same person whose despair had driven them to plotting and inciting murder, culminating with obliterating the island via explosives. Even so, even thought I emphasize with him 1000% percent, I still want to slap him upside the head. For all his boasting and desire to show off, Battler failed to live up to his promises in the hour of Ange's need. He should have sucked it up and gone to her, even if doing so really did kill "Hachijo Toya". It was not his fault he became Toya, but it is absolutely his Sin that he stayed Toya. For who is Toya but the persona of a severely unhappy person who couldn't live with the tragic circumstances of their reality? Being Toya almost literally killed Battler because he couldn't reconcile being two radically different people. At this rate, the alternate universe where Ange (literally) jumped the gun, murdered a bunch of people, and ran off to live a life of Cool Crimes is almost preferable to me, because then at least that version of her doesn't have to find out that her big brother ran away from his issues rather than, I don't know, go talk to a therapist and/or counselor.
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Nov 29, 2017 17:46
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"Hey Ikuko, I think I found my sister but I'm afraid I'll have an alternate personality megastroke if I talk to her, but like can you send her an email and let her know what's up so that she doesn't have to spend another 20 years thinking I'm dead"
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Nov 29, 2017 17:48
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Battler died in the ocean, please don't bully Toya.
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Nov 29, 2017 18:11
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I'm aware this is a stupid question, but can someone please explain to me what happened in this ending? I've always been confused by it ever since the original release, and then I got more confused with the manga's version since it included Battler among the people that... Battler... reunited with in the Golden Land. Which makes slightly more sense to me since some level of Battler died with Beatrice at the bottom of the sea, but then it makes more sense for Battler to be reuniting with them now, except Battler's been dead this whole time, and my head hurts.
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Nov 29, 2017 18:36
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Rune Full Moon posted:I'm aware this is a stupid question, but can someone please explain to me what happened in this ending? I've always been confused by it ever since the original release, and then I got more confused with the manga's version since it included Battler among the people that... Battler... reunited with in the Golden Land. Which makes slightly more sense to me since some level of Battler died with Beatrice at the bottom of the sea, but then it makes more sense for Battler to be reuniting with them now, except Battler's been dead this whole time, and my head hurts. honestly IMO it's best to disregard anything in the EP8 manga that happens after, like, halfway through Chapter 27.
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Nov 29, 2017 18:43
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Rune Full Moon posted:I'm aware this is a stupid question, but can someone please explain to me what happened in this ending? I've always been confused by it ever since the original release, and then I got more confused with the manga's version since it included Battler among the people that... Battler... reunited with in the Golden Land. Which makes slightly more sense to me since some level of Battler died with Beatrice at the bottom of the sea, but then it makes more sense for Battler to be reuniting with them now, except Battler's been dead this whole time, and my head hurts. By seeing Rokkenjima and Bearice's portrait one last time, Tohya was able to let go of the part of himself that was still Battler, who (probably metaphorically, if you're some kinda no-magic dweeb) passed on with the rest of his family, including Ange's former self that she let go of at the end of her narrative, and the part of him that died with Yasu at the bottom of the ocean.
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Nov 29, 2017 18:48
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Fates End posted:honestly IMO it's best to disregard anything in the EP8 manga that happens after, like, halfway through Chapter 27. Including ANGE-Beatrice's witch dress? PoorWeather posted:By seeing Rokkenjima and Bearice's portrait one last time, Tohya was able to let go of the part of himself that was still Battler, who (probably metaphorically, if you're some kinda no-magic dweeb) passed on with the rest of his family, including Ange's former self that she let go of at the end of her narrative, and the part of him that died with Yasu at the bottom of the ocean. Okay, there we go. Thank you. That explains why Ange was there too.
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Nov 29, 2017 18:50
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Thank you so much for this LP, Prof. It's been so incredible to follow the discussions and slowly develop a greater understanding of Umineko and well, life. I can't emphasize enough how grateful I am that the magic of this thread exists. You brought together a bunch of people who Umineko touched in so many different ways and I'm so glad that I got to meet all of you <3
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Nov 29, 2017 18:57
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I told you Battler would come back the whole time. The more the witches denied it in red the more certain it was! 
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Nov 29, 2017 20:21
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Oh my god.... Oh my god. Prof, thank you so much for sharing this with us- for all the time and effort spent on bringing us a story I'd known about but thought I'd never get around to. I'm so glad I just dived in and swam to the end, as much as my overly pretentious writing and weird, circuitous reasoning would take me. Though the only "magic" I've really found in my life is the power of story to educate, entertain, and sometimes change a life... well, that magic is here, and I'm glad I shared it with all of you. The... ambiguity of Battler/ Tohya and the explanation of why he never sought out Ange before now... was a little weird at first, but now it feels more sad to me than anything else. Brain damage is one thing, but I wonder if there isn't a subconscious revulsion at the memories of Battler and how he failed to save his family... or Beato... in the end. And then I also remembered how Battler came off in the stories that "Tohya" published... how stupid and incompetent he is, and how he continually gets dragged across the coals due to his own mistakes. And I wonder: if Tohya was Battler all along, and Battler made me so mad in his stories about "himself", then... what if the Battler we've come to know is Tohya punishing Battler for all of the thoughts we've brought up? What if the novels were his self-flagellation for his own failing, his way of punishing and distancing himself from the boy who failed everyone? If that's the case... than 1)  and 2) I can absolutely see why Battler would refuse to see Ange- guilt for not contacting her sooner, shame for his failure and brokenness, weirdness of his new identity- even if I don't strictly agree. (And while his decision might be seen as cowardly, well... I don't disagree, but I'm past yelling at these characters for their faults.)In term of things that make me cry, Battler/Tohya's thing is up there. But then I got to this part. And I lost it. Had to go to the bathroom to compose myself again, because the beauty of a story has blinded me and brought me to my knees. Because it is a story not ultimately of cruelty or pain, but of redemption. Not just Ange's or Battlers, but of the Ushiromiya name itself. In focusing not on the cruelty that destroyed them but the kindness they showed to each other, Ange has brought forth the gold among the dross. And a place that was portrayed as a raising ground for the family servants is shown to become a hospice for children without families. It no longer matters whether the Halloween party was real or not, because Ange has made it real by creating a place of love. And to honor the cousin which showed her the ways of magic through finding happiness and joy in small things, she has used Sakutarou, the avatar of Maria's better angels, to give thousands of other lonely children the comfort and companionship that both Ange and Maria did not receive... and could not give each other in life. It means that Ange has forgiven her family for the hurts that dragged them down, and that has allowed her to forgive herself for not embracing theri memory or remembering their better natures- this entire story might be seen as the journey from the doubt and condemnation of the faults of the past to an embrace of the goodness they possessed. And all of this would have been enough... But Ange does not stop there. Because the embrace and understanding of the past has led to a greater understanding of the crime, and of its perpetrator, who was crushed under the weight of her sin and expected no forgiveness or mercy. But mercy, and forgiveness has at last come. Because the Witch of Resurrection has brought the culprit back, brought them away from that terrible place that they were hurt, and which destroyed them with a terrible truth and became their tomb. The Witch of Healing has embraced Yasu, kissed her and said, "I know. I too know the pain and loneliness of being without a home, and I forgive you. And you shall not languish here, among the seaweed, forgotten and in pain. The world will remember you, not as the dark thing you became, but the spirit of glory you wished you could be. As the secret ally of Maria, as the dear friend of Jessica and the beloved of George... and of Battler- you are the patron of this family, and in recognition of you love, I will do what my brother could not. You were the architect of this story, and though it ended in pain and regret... it is my story now, and you shall go to the ball." And thus a tale which began as one of cruelty and murder... becomes one of repentance and embrace. Just as the last time something cried, I had forgotten that there are many reasons for tears. What a wonderful trick. What a glorious ending. What a... what... a... ... ...What a miracle. My god. The Witch of Miracles promised no miracles, and yet a miracle came. I had thought the story, and the Witches part in it, was the instrument to engineer the miracle for Ange to live and find happiness. But Ange... was the instrument... and the miracle was for... 
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Nov 29, 2017 21:06
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Well, it's been a hell of a ride. And bumpy at times. But the road to learning and understand is always gonna be a rough one, but not one you have to walk alone. Thanks Prof for making all of this possible. Thanks everyone else for being great company on this journey. Furthermore, Fates End posted:Behold, the real truth of October 5th, 1986. 
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Nov 29, 2017 21:26
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resurgam40 posted:In term of things that make me cry, Battler/Tohya's thing is up there. But then I got to this part. The manga bit of that part is one of those piece that will make me tear up on command when I read it. Even the wordless pages make me misty eyed just by themselves.   
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Nov 29, 2017 21:29
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Truly beautiful. Thank you, Prof.
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Nov 29, 2017 22:06
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While I never really posted in this thread, I'd also like to thank everyone who participated in this thread whole wild ride, and especially to Prof, for making this whole experience possible. My experience with Umineko prior to jumping on this thread was just "It had a bad anime", I am so, so grateful for this thread and everyone in it. I am gonna miss this thread and getting a new piece of the puzzle, but what an amazing story. Thank you all.
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Nov 29, 2017 22:27
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Thank you very much ProfessorProf. And once again to everyone in the thread as well, my only real regret is that I did not find this LP any sooner. I am doing my part now to spread this tale around, started streaming it to a group of friends and they started getting into it. At least one of them got a word-doc to try and keep all the facts together and post his theories in. Reading his ideas of how a 19th person could've hidden under the bed waiting for Eva and Hideyoshi in episode 1 and such really warms my heart... and is gonna make it even more fun when his theory will get dashed later on. So once again, thanks everyone. I know my life feels a little more richer now thanks to experiencing this very special, very strange tale.
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Nov 29, 2017 22:34
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Tired Moritz posted:Battler died in the ocean, please don't bully Toya. In so far as "not coming back, ever", no. Battler disappeared because of circumstances beyond control and Toya took over for the body to keep it going. Once Battler reawakened Toya was supposed to take a back-seat because he was just a stopgap. That he didn't, that he almost killed the two of them because he couldn't handle reality intruding on his pretty little illusion, is repeating the same sin that created him in the first place.
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Nov 29, 2017 22:56
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dotchan posted:In so far as "not coming back, ever", no. Battler disappeared because of circumstances beyond control and Toya took over for the body to keep it going. Once Battler reawakened Toya was supposed to take a back-seat because he was just a stopgap. That he didn't, that he almost killed the two of them because he couldn't handle reality intruding on his pretty little illusion, is repeating the same sin that created him in the first place. Brain Damage can't be helped.
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Nov 29, 2017 23:09
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MonsterEnvy posted:Brain Damage can't be helped. 仕方が無い. Battler is incompetent, but not guilty.
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Nov 29, 2017 23:17
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It is really somewhat incredible that this LP exists. Thanks for all the amazing efforts, Prof. And thanks to everyone else, too 
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Nov 29, 2017 23:36
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I liked this ending. It hurts the least. Even showing us one last time that our good buddy Battler is still and always incompetent. It helps that my brother is visiting for the week, too. Sometimes I miss him. Thank you Prof, witchchat, you smart people, and the rest of you nerds who made this a hella loving amazing ride. What a day.
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Nov 30, 2017 00:43
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resurgam40 posted:...What a miracle. The Witch of Certainty, Lambdadelta, only grants her power to those with the willpower necessary to see things through to the end no matter what the cost or circumstance. That's why she appeared for Beatrice, and why it's suggested in TIPS that she appeared for Miyo Takano in Higurashi. Certainty only comes to those who already have the determination to create certain outcomes already. The Witch of Miracles, Bernkastel, is a reaper of hope and happiness, a destroyer of miracles. Not because she hates good and happy things (though she certainly does), but because hinging your hopes on impossible odds and praying for miracles to fix all your problems is hardly different from self-delusional "truth" that is molded to fit a person's specific biases. Miracles only come to those who can survive without them.
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Nov 30, 2017 00:50
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KataraniSword posted:The Witch of Miracles, Bernkastel, is a reaper of hope and happiness, a destroyer of miracles. Not because she hates good and happy things (though she certainly does), but because hinging your hopes on impossible odds and praying for miracles to fix all your problems is hardly different from self-delusional "truth" that is molded to fit a person's specific biases. Miracles only come to those who can survive without them. also because even when she got 'her own' miracle, she could never reach it.
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Nov 30, 2017 01:00
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MonsterEnvy posted:Brain Damage can't be helped. I thought it was implied that Toya/Battler's later issues (being afraid of disappearing if he spoke to Ange) where more psychological, not physiological. i.e., the brain damage lead to memory loss, but the rejection of the old memories to the point of almost dying was 100% Toya.
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Nov 30, 2017 01:06
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It's probably the psychological and physiological influencing each other there. Higher stress levels have been shown to increase risks of strokes or seizures, and because of Tohya's brain damage, remembering Battler is incredibly stressful for him. The actual fit probably caused physical damage, which made the psychological effects worse, etc. It's a nasty cycle. Under the circumstances, being terrified for his life isn't unreasonable. You could say that he should have seen her anyway (and he says it himself in the scene), but it's something we can understand and even empathize with. Doing the right thing when it might cost you your life is hard, especially on behalf of someone who doesn't even feel like your family anymore.
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Nov 30, 2017 01:19
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I honestly always took it as literal that the memories felt like another person; not a rejection of the truth of what he did as a rationalization, but something more akin to BIID but neurological. Not exactly depersonalization since he still felt like his body was his own, but something similar. That the memories, to him, were experienced by him as being another person's memories in a literal sense, not a metaphorical. (Which I mean, in a very real sense was true practically too, since a person with total amnesia isn't really the same person in any solid sense anyway, but that's beside the point to his own experiences.)
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Nov 30, 2017 01:24
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I’m so glad you’ve shared this incredible story here, otherwise I would have passed Umineko off as some lackluster anime sequel to Higurashi (which I already don’t like). I really don’t go play through VN’s, but going through mostly blind with the thread made it into an already wild ride into an amazing one. Even though all I really added were some terrible photoshops and jokes.
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Nov 30, 2017 01:26
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idonotlikepeas posted:You could say that he should have seen her anyway (and he says it himself in the scene), but it's something we can understand and even empathize with. Doing the right thing when it might cost you your life is hard, especially on behalf of someone who doesn't even feel like your family anymore. But imagine what it would have been like if he did, and dropped dead in front of Ange.
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Nov 30, 2017 01:29
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Yeah, it's hard to read even a little ill intent into his choice. He was trying to preserve himself, not harm or punish anyone. There's no guilty mind here; just someone profoundly disoriented and also deeply and permanently changed by their experiences. It's tragic, not really even selfish, and driven by circumstance. And Ange is still right to feel abandoned yet joyful. What a strange situation to find yourself in! But both siblings still act with love and are able to commune in, for a moment, some of that sense of home both had stolen from them at a young age. And that is a miracle.
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Nov 30, 2017 01:30
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Idran posted:I honestly always took it as literal that the memories felt like another person; not a rejection of the truth of what he did as a rationalization, but something more akin to BIID but neurological. Not exactly depersonalization since he still felt like his body was his own, but something similar. That the memories, to him, were experienced by him as being another person's memories in a literal sense, not a metaphorical. (Which I mean, in a very real sense was true practically too, since a person with total amnesia isn't really the same person in any solid sense anyway, but that's beside the point to his own experiences.) I think the emotional aspect of 'this horrible series of events happened and derailed my entire life and living the life I had before is impossible, all my family is dead but one, I can't bear to keep living as Battler' is present, but it's overshadowed by whatever physically neurologically happened. If it was just the emotional trauma aspect, that can be worked past over time, like Ange has, but Toya is still unable to identify himself fully as Battler even when he has emotionally recovered quite a lot. This update made me cry. I'm really satisified with this, and thank you so much for LPing these games, Prof.
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Nov 30, 2017 01:32
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Thanks Prof for reminding me why I love this so much
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Nov 30, 2017 01:53
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Happy birthday to Beatrice, by the way. It took a lot of careful planning to get the finale to happen today.
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Nov 30, 2017 02:27
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Happy birthday to Sayo, I think.
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Nov 30, 2017 02:32
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