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What people who defend BvS as some secret gem that only people with high iqs can understand fail to realize is that structurally speaking BvS and CW are nearly the exact same film: Armored superhero experiences flashbacks to his childhood and his murdered parents, as libertarian, American superhero takes part in combating attempted terrorist attack, which at least partially fails, leading to extreme loss of life, and causes aforementioned armored superhero to believe that superheroes need some sort of failsafe or oversight. White villain then enacts a convoluted plan to make the armored superhero and libertarian superhero fight each other, primarily by framing someone via a bomb located in a government building. Libertarian superhero then runs away, as armored superhero interacts with several new superheroes introduced for the sole purpose of foreshadowing their spinoff solo films. White villain's overall plan is revealed to be reviving a genetically modified supersoldier to do their bidding, and the climax of the film is armored superhero and libertarian superhero fighting each other, which is either caused or stopped by armored superhero realizing a deeper truth about his murdered parents, tying into the beginning of the movie's flashback. A third hero introduced within the bounds of the movie helps in the climax, and the end of the movie is an armored superhero who wears all black and a cowl confronting the villain and warning white villain, whom he has captured, against further aggression,as white villain at least partially succeeds at his overall goal of causing division within the superhero community. The reason why BvS is hated and CW is acclaimed is because of execution. Zemo kills the other Winter Soldiers because the movie didn't need another loving villain, and the movie realized that cap and iron man punching each other is a powerful enough climax on its own. Whilst BvS included DD for literally no loving reason other than to extend the movie another loving half hour, which itself completely anticlimaxed the titular batman versus superman fight. The movie should be ended, but it just keeps loving going when the movie had already delivered on the promise of its title. And then there's the other things, like Zemo having an actual reason he was doing what he was doing and a sympathetic arc, while Lex just does stuff...because he can? And he hates Superman? I guess? CW is character first while BvS is plot first,and its why people make fun of Martha and WW watching YouTube videos when CW has IM watching security camera footage or the completely unnecessary Peter Parker vignette. You understand and empathize with the characters, so the scene with Tony and Peter is a highlight of the movie despite being completely unnecessary and could have been cut if needed, while BvS literally just pauses the movie for trailers for other ones. The Tony's parents payoff paid off because it was built to, while Martha is very obviously a way to get Batman and Superman to stop fighting each other so they can fight Doomsday instead. Every single moment of BvS is a machination for something else, nothing just happens to enrich the movie or the audiences understanding of it. Its all utilitarian boring grey ugly nonsense to move pieces into place so other pieces can move. That's it.
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Nov 30, 2017 18:27
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Al Borland Corp. posted:I like Man of Steel more than any other Superman film, so it's definitely Snyder/Goyer. I like BvS but not as much as other Batman films or other Superman films. I do BvS suffered from lots of interference like bringing in Terrio and making it be a JL prequel. I liked Watchmen and haven't seen any other Snyder films. Alright. Like personally I like Superman (heck, I enjoyed Superman Returns), I like Batman, and I feel like I've given Snyder a bunch of chances and kinda always hated his movies. All of them. Especially Watchmen.
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Nov 30, 2017 18:44
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There's not much to compare Watchmen to. I guess other Moore adaptations? Definitely better than LXG, V, or Swamp Thing
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Nov 30, 2017 18:53
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enigmahfc posted:Making BVS longer would in no way make it better. I saw the extended cut, never saw the theatrical cut, and it was terrible. I'm not sure who these people are who say the extended cut is better, but gently caress them. Here’s the thing, the extended cut is better. So imagine what it was like in theaters.
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Nov 30, 2017 18:54
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Al Borland Corp. posted:There's not much to compare Watchmen to. I guess other Moore adaptations? Definitely better than LXG, V, or Swamp Thing It's significantly worse than The Dark Knight Rises, which is probably my threshold for 'bad comic book movie'.
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Nov 30, 2017 18:59
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I only defend BvS because there's so many people who rip on it when they clearly didn't see it. A customer of mine was bitching about the jar of piss showing up and not making any sense despite a 5 minute scene setting it up earlier in the film. Now I will go to bat for Man of Steel over and over again because it's a fantastic film. But that said, I do often wish we could have seen what the film would have been like if Nolan hadn't left early in production.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:02
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It's probably just a bad idea to have a character in your movie get tricked into drinking piss unless you're making an early 2000's teen sexy comedy starring Sean Williams Scott or Freddie Prinze Jr.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:11
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It’s almost 2018, why can’t you people get over Man of Steel?
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Nov 30, 2017 19:12
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Ojjeorago posted:It’s almost 2018, why can’t you people get over Man of Steel? Because it's a great movie.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:13
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JT Smiley posted:It's probably just a bad idea to have a character in your movie get tricked into drinking piss unless you're making an early 2000's teen sexy comedy starring Sean Williams Scott or Freddie Prinze Jr. Rhyno posted:I only defend BvS because there's so many people who rip on it when they clearly didn't see it.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:14
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JT Smiley posted:It's probably just a bad idea to have a character in your movie get tricked into drinking piss unless you're making an early 2000's teen sexy comedy starring Sean Williams Scott or Freddie Prinze Jr. She didn't drink it though? Ojjeorago posted:It’s almost 2018, why can’t you people get over Man of Steel? This is a silly post. The passage of time makes movies not relevant for discussion any longer?
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Nov 30, 2017 19:15
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I unironically love the jar of piss. It was a good dunk by the senator, and it comes back in a way that makes Lex look like a dangerous psychopath. And I laughed.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:19
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Open Marriage Night posted:I unironically love the jar of piss. It was a good dunk by the senator, and it comes back in a way that makes Lex look like a dangerous psychopath. And I laughed. You might it even say it was a killing joke.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:22
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Rhyno posted:She didn't drink it though? Guess I'm just remembering it wrong.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:25
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Al Borland Corp. posted:If you never saw the other version how would you know? Because if I thought what I saw was terrible, I cannot imagine how bad the cut people say is 'not as good' is. But there would be less BVS in the theatrical cut of BVS, and that does seem better.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:25
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Ojjeorago posted:It’s almost 2018, why can’t you people get over Man of Steel? It's almost 2018, why can't people get over Pluto Nash? the passage of time does not magically make a bad movie into a good movie.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:28
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JT Smiley posted:Guess I'm just remembering it wrong. Well that kind of illustrates my point in a way so thank you. You're not the first person I've seen who thinks she drank out of the jar.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:30
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It would have made the scene better if she did imo. At least the scene would have elicited disgust and not <null>
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Nov 30, 2017 19:33
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Personally I doubt it's actually even piss in the jar, But only lex knows.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:35
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I can't believe Zack Snyder turned the jar of piss into a murderer.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:37
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SleepCousinDeath posted:Because it's a great movie. No no, he said Man of Steel. Not Steel.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:40
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Oh sorry, I thought we were talking about Steel Magnolias.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:41
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Rhyno posted:This is a silly post. The passage of time makes movies not relevant for discussion any longer? No but we probably don't need to get into the exact same, multi-page discussion over it every few weeks at this point.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:41
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Fangz posted:It's significantly worse than The Dark Knight Rises, which is probably my threshold for 'bad comic book movie'. I feel like my threshold is where I'd put something like The Incredible Hulk. It wasn't a bad movie, but it's not one that I would ever rush to watch again. BvS was an ok movie, but a disappointment, so it slots in under. The original Thor isn't spectacular, but I actually think it gets more grief than it deserves. Slot it right over.
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Nov 30, 2017 20:06
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The piss jar didn't work because of two things. One was that it was dragged out way too long with her looking at it and then reacting. The other was that was a big jar of piss, so did Lex wait until he really had to go? Did he fill it over time? Did he have other people pee in it?
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Nov 30, 2017 20:15
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Also what's up with his diet, that piss was orange.
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Nov 30, 2017 20:17
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Sgt. Politeness posted:Also what's up with his diet, that piss was orange. He eats a lot of carrots. Good for eyesight.
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Nov 30, 2017 20:21
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It wasn't piss, it was just evocative. As crazy as Lex is I don't think he was crazy enough to get an actual jar of piss in there.
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Nov 30, 2017 20:34
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Open Marriage Night posted:I unironically love the jar of piss. It was a good dunk by the senator, and it comes back in a way that makes Lex look like a dangerous psychopath. And I laughed. Same here, it was second only to Wonder Woman as the best part of the movie
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Nov 30, 2017 20:41
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Al Borland Corp. posted:It wasn't piss, it was just evocative. As crazy as Lex is I don't think he was crazy enough to get an actual jar of piss in there. The Lex Luthor in Batman v Superman comes off as exactly that petty and vindictive.
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Nov 30, 2017 20:42
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:
Not going to quote the whole thing, but I agree with all of this. Debate is fine, but I also think that the constant discussion about piss jars and cinematography too often comes across as overcompensation from people unwillling to accept that 'This movie wasn't fun to watch' is just as valid a criticism as their 6 paragraph posts about Lex's motivation. Nerds with a superiority complex basically. Having said that, I really want to like the DC movies. There are parts of MoS that are really good. But calling the character driven Marvel movies soulless, when DC movies have been studio mandated to a point of parody, shows a really impressive lack of self-awareness.
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Nov 30, 2017 20:52
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The soulless critique is a lot more fair for Star Wars than it is for Marvel, especially post Perlmutter.
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Nov 30, 2017 21:04
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The really enraging thing about BvS is that it takes three hours over CW's barely 2 and a half, with half the cast, and still completely fucks up adequate characterization for literally everyone. I know, on an objective level, why Lex is doing what he's doing, or why Batman or Superman are doing what they're doing, but I get no sense of their motivations or actual personalities so I'm constantly at a loss as to why they're in this film. Its so shabbily constructed that nobody has any arcs, in contrast to CW,which I just rewatched, which basically gives everyone a moment of growth. gently caress, Vision has an arc! It might be barely two scenes long, but he has one and it justifies who he is, why he's fighting (he loves Wanda) and what his ultimate motivation is (he wants other people to see Wanda as he sees her). I could not tell you why Flash is in this movie outside of the literal functional reason he is in BvS. BvS has like maybe three main characters, if I'm being generous, and one big bad, and its still an overstuffed unfocused mess of things happening so other things do, while CW juggles 12 heroes and ends up thirty minutes shorter while also being able to service them all at least somewhat well. And that's while introducing two new ones, who are among the best parts of the movie as a whole. And thirty minutes of it could be easily been cut and it still would've worked fine. Like sincerely Zemo's monologue and "vengeance has consumed you" is among the best scenes in any superhero movie ever. Nothing in any DCEU film has even come loving close to that. Its an incredible sequence
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Nov 30, 2017 21:17
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Al Borland Corp. posted:The soulless critique is a lot more fair for Star Wars than it is for Marvel, especially post Perlmutter. The number of times I hear "bland and samey" tossed around in regards to the Marvel movies is pretty tiresome, at this point.
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Nov 30, 2017 21:25
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I'm excited for avengers 3. That trailer was great.
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Nov 30, 2017 21:30
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Phylodox posted:The number of times I hear "bland and samey" tossed around in regards to the Marvel movies is pretty tiresome, at this point. To be somewhat fair, I think it was a valid criticism for the early wave of Marvel movies. But Marvel has made a pretty conscientious effort to hire interesting directors from a variety of backgrounds and let them mostly do their thing. Can't think of a better example than Waititi/Ragnarok. I'm so loving hyped for Coogler Black Panther. I feel like the visuals have gotten significantly better as well. I'm not versed enough to walk out of a theater talking about specific shots or anything, but I do remember walking out of Doctor Strange and thinking it was one of the most visually amazing things I'd ever seen.
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Nov 30, 2017 21:31
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mikeraskol posted:To be somewhat fair, I think it was a valid criticism for the early wave of Marvel movies. But Marvel has made a pretty conscientious effort to hire interesting directors from a variety of backgrounds and let them mostly do their thing. Can't think of a better example than Waititi/Ragnarok. It's the only example.
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Nov 30, 2017 21:36
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Al Borland Corp. posted:There's not much to compare Watchmen to. I guess other Moore adaptations? Definitely better than LXG, V, or Swamp Thing Whatcha talkin about, V is a good movie. Haven't read the comic tho.
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Nov 30, 2017 21:43
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mikeraskol posted:To be somewhat fair, I think it was a valid criticism for the early wave of Marvel movies. I mean...is it, though? Captain America looks a lot different than Iron Man looks a lot different than Thor. It's only with a couple of the more low-effort sequels (i.e. Iron Man 2 and Thor: The Dark World) that they stumbled a bit.
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Nov 30, 2017 21:46
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:The really enraging thing about BvS is that it takes three hours over CW's barely 2 and a half, with half the cast, and still completely fucks up adequate characterization for literally everyone. I know, on an objective level, why Lex is doing what he's doing, or why Batman or Superman are doing what they're doing, but I get no sense of their motivations or actual personalities so I'm constantly at a loss as to why they're in this film. Its so shabbily constructed that nobody has any arcs, in contrast to CW,which I just rewatched, which basically gives everyone a moment of growth. gently caress, Vision has an arc! It might be barely two scenes long, but he has one and it justifies who he is, why he's fighting (he loves Wanda) and what his ultimate motivation is (he wants other people to see Wanda as he sees her). I could not tell you why Flash is in this movie outside of the literal functional reason he is in BvS. Have to agree with this. The fight between batman and superman in bvs felt so contrived. It always felt like there was a hundred different ways it could have gone differently and batman and superman wouldn't have fought each other. However, they managed to end up fighting each other because they both seem to be morons who are incapable of using simple reasoning or talking things out. CW by contrast, the fight between tony and steve feels deserved and understandable. Cap tries to reason with tony. Tony's understandably super pissed off and doesn't care that Bucky was brainwashed at the time. Cap doesn't want to see his friend getting captured or killed for poo poo that wasn't really his fault. It feels like the whole movies been leading up to this is and it is the climax of the film. BVS has to thrown in doomsday in there, which that plot of in and of itself leads to an entirely different host of problems.
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Nov 30, 2017 21:47
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