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BrianWilly posted:It looks to me like Tony is going to be in Wakanda as well. Well, either it’s him, or a remote-controlled Hulkbuster suit. What? I loved that Lois. She was proactive and badass and a real investigative journalist and figured out Superman's identity before Superman himself even did.
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Dec 1, 2017 00:47
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As soon as someone says "I followed the obvious clues to find out that you're Superman" I feel like the rest of the universe hits a brick wall. Shouldn't everyone know it then? I mean in this day and age, there's no way he would be able to protect it. Lois Lane isn't the only good reporter in the world. I mean sure Justice League doesn't seem to care much for secret identities, but I can't tell if that's just the movie being bad or a conscious decision.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:01
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I think it can still work if you make it so that Superman gets a lot better at hiding it afterwards.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:03
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I like to assume that everybody at the Daily Planet totally knows and that being assigned to Perry White's floor means that you have just been approved for a dual major in journalism and keeping secrets.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:06
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SonicRulez posted:As soon as someone says "I followed the obvious clues to find out that you're Superman" I feel like the rest of the universe hits a brick wall. Shouldn't everyone know it then? I mean in this day and age, there's no way he would be able to protect it. Lois Lane isn't the only good reporter in the world. I mean sure Justice League doesn't seem to care much for secret identities, but I can't tell if that's just the movie being bad or a conscious decision. Someone from Smallville posts a picture of Superman on facebook. facebook asks that person if they want to tag Clark Kent.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:07
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Spacebump posted:Someone from Smallville posts a picture of Superman on facebook. facebook asks that person if they want to tag Clark Kent. Lex Luthor and Mark Zuckerberg played by the same guy. Checks out.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:09
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The whole experimental bullet story line is deeply boring though. There are so many interesting ways that the film could have utilized Lois, and they have her essentially running in place with a storyline that has no real progression or momentum. Lois doesn't change or grow as a result of her adventure, or have any inner conflict that isn't resolved in the same scene as it's introduced. But that's most of the film though; wheel spinning, with lots of plot, and very little character development.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:09
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Who else can explain Martha tho
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Dec 1, 2017 01:10
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teagone posted:In BvS Lex uses Lois as bait to frame Superman in the Africa sequence, which eventually leads to Lex "framing" Superman again for the bombing. Lois is the one who uncovers this, so I'd argue she was pretty essential for one of the major plot points of the film. I'll agree about her role in Justice League though, but Whedon butchered her part anyways so Why? Because Adams wouldn't sleep with him?
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Dec 1, 2017 01:10
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Spacebump posted:Someone from Smallville posts a picture of Superman on facebook. facebook asks that person if they want to tag Clark Kent.  Honestly, the debate about Clark Kent being obviously Superman really seems to come down to the viewer assuming all the things the audience sees should be obvious to the characters too. I don't know what every local reporter looks like and if I did, my thought wouldn't be "that guy's Superman." At best, it'd be "anyone tell you that you kinda look like Superman? Haha what a coincidence"
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Dec 1, 2017 01:12
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I still think Reeve had the right idea. Make it all in the physicality so that no one would even entertain the possibility Clark Kent could be anything like Supes.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:16
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David D. Davidson posted:One of the big problems tha BvS has is that Superman doesn't really have much of a character in that film. All we know about him is that he is in a sexual relationship with Lois, that he loves him mother and that he is terrible at his job. We actually learn a lot about Superman in BvS. We know that while he likes saving people, but we also know he's struggling with just how much he should be doing. He wants to help, but he's burdened by the knowledge that all of his actions have direct consequences. We know he feels very uncomfortable with the attention he's getting. We know he cares about the poor and the destitute, we know he feels strongly about having their voices heard. BvS ultimately portrays him as a man who's trying to do the right thing, but isn't sure how to. But yes, the theatrical cut does leave out a lot of the Clark Kent stuff, which I feel was a mistake to take out. But to go back to that discussion for a second, I'm not sure exactly what was mandated had to be in the movie. Leaving out the JL stuff makes the most sense, as they feel the most tacked on, but I got the feeling that their inclusion was non negotiable. And besides, Wonder Womans did steal the show, so I feel her addition was well worth it. Can you cut doomsday out? In my opinion, not really. BvS is heavily inspired by Excalibur and the Fisher king myth, and even beyond that, Supermans death was clearly going to have consequences beyond BvS in future films. Removing Doomsday means throwing that out, and if you're trying to lead up to a JL movie the death of Superman is as good a jump of point as any. One of the things I really like about BvS and MoS is that it doesn't play in to the typical superhero fantasy. Superman is a terrifying concept, and Snyder doesn't try to shy away from that. MoS and BvS are not empowered superhero fantasies, but rather show that being Superman can be a heavy burden. I like that it takes itself seriously, and it takes the viewer seriously as well. Most of Marvels movies has this ironic detachment which has gotten very old at this point. Anyway, dem's my two cents.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:16
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teagone posted:In BvS Lex uses Lois as bait to frame Superman in the Africa sequence, which eventually leads to Lex "framing" Superman again for the bombing. Lois is the one who uncovers this, so I'd argue she was pretty essential for one of the major plot points of the film. I could be wrong, because gently caress BvS there's no way I'm going back to rewatch it and check, but doesn't Lois's investigation eventually amount to nothing because, while she discovers what's happening for the audience's benefit, she gets kidnapped before she can tell anyone and then Lex goes ahead and tells Superman anyway?
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Dec 1, 2017 01:16
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For gently caress's sake y'all! Clark Kent subtly vibrates his face when taking photos so that they'll come out slightly distorted and not as recognizable as Superman!! Get your facts straight!!!11  JT Smiley posted:Hey, Zod really needed to take her aboard his ship otherwise.... Umm.... Why he couldn’t have gotten that info from Superman himself is...uh...yeah I dunno.  Honestly, that sort of thing bothers me a lot less than how...milquetoast...they made her overall. There’s no fire, no snappiness, no attitude. The only thing we see her do at her job is to get chewed out by her boss a couple of times and then fail to publish a story. Of course we understand why she wouldn’t publish it, but that doesn’t help sell any impressions of this woman as a tough-as-nails go-getter who’s on top of her game. Old Kentucky Shark posted:I could be wrong, because gently caress BvS there's no way I'm going back to rewatch it and check, but doesn't Lois's investigation eventually amount to nothing because, while she discovers what's happening for the audience's benefit, she gets kidnapped before she can tell anyone and then Lex goes ahead and tells Superman anyway? BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 01:19
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You could cut Doomsday out and just have Batman kill Superman at the end, then realise what a terrible mistake he made.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:20
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Monaghan posted:Have to agree with this. The fight between batman and superman in bvs felt so contrived. It always felt like there was a hundred different ways it could have gone differently and batman and superman wouldn't have fought each other. However, they managed to end up fighting each other because they both seem to be morons who are incapable of using simple reasoning or talking things out. The fight between Clark and Bruce has all the elements required to be "deserved" or "understandable" presented in BvS the same as CW sets up the fight between Cap/Bucky against Stark. Bruce and Clark are not relegated to mere morons as you say; their motivations are clear and explicit, and the film (I'm referring to the Ultimate Edition) has momentous setups for their eventual showdown. Say what you will about the film's presentation of their conflict, but the narrative between and around that conflict is consistent and logical. There's also a great scene in BvS Ultimate Edition that sums why "talking things out" wouldn't have worked, that embellishes Bruce's characterization in BvS as being a man without (or who lost) reason. After Clark sees the photos of a dead inmate with Batman's brand on his chest, Clark tracks down his girlfriend — should note that the the Ultimate Edition does a significantly better job showing how Lex is manipulating this conflict. During the scene Clark pleads to let him help that inmate's girlfriend find justice for the death of her boyfriend, and she says "With what? Your pen? Words don't stop a man like that. You know what does? A fist." I've timestamped the scene below: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCik5tlh3m8&t=184s
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Dec 1, 2017 01:23
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Fangz posted:You could cut Doomsday out and just have Batman kill Superman at the end, then realise what a terrible mistake he made. There's no way this works I think. Studio execs would be terrified, and justifiably so, that they just poisoned the Batman character with the audience.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:23
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:I could be wrong, because gently caress BvS there's no way I'm going back to rewatch it and check, but doesn't Lois's investigation eventually amount to nothing because, while she discovers what's happening for the audience's benefit, she gets kidnapped before she can tell anyone and then Lex goes ahead and tells Superman anyway? Yes. Lois has two big chances to demonstrate agency and importance and they’re both subverted in favour of making her a damsel in distress again.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:24
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I know they’re not doing this, but what if Marvel was just straight up lying about some of the movies they’ve got planned down the pipe and ended up killing Ant-Man in IW.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:27
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I can't imagine how Superman is a terrifying concept unless you're a really harsh cynic. I guess that's why I don't like MoS and felt lukewarm about BvS. Kind man who uses his immense power to save lives because he loves the world and its people is uplifting. Superman is for children, drat it. If anything, I appreciate the tone of the MCU when it comes to accepting the absurd fantasy of the universe. The other Defenders make cracks at Matt for his costume, but they also appreciate that they live in a universe where that's a common enough thing at this point. Nobody gives Spider-Man any grief. I dunno, it just feels like "bleak" and "serious" don't have to mean the same thing. nerdman42 posted:Honestly, the debate about Clark Kent being obviously Superman really seems to come down to the viewer assuming all the things the audience sees should be obvious to the characters too. I don't know what every local reporter looks like and if I did, my thought wouldn't be "that guy's Superman." At best, it'd be "anyone tell you that you kinda look like Superman? Haha what a coincidence" I'm willing to suspend my disbelief of course, that's the entry fee for Superman. When any Superman media makes a plot point out of it though, I have no choice but to be sucked out of it. If Lois can figure it out for any reason other than him telling her, I have to assume other people could as well. I think it's better to just not go there.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:28
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mikeraskol posted:There's no way this works I think. Studio execs would be terrified, and justifiably so, that they just poisoned the Batman character with the audience. Enh, everyone knows Superman is coming back. It just sets up a natural arc for Justice League of "Batman Atones For His Crimes". Have Wayne visit Martha and get forgiven at the end or something. Big hug and cry moment.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:28
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nerdman42 posted:
I totally get what you're saying, but it's 2017, people don't need to know what Clark Kent looks like to reverse image search a picture of Superman.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:30
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Yeah there's so many consequences that Supermans death has, like the literal one throwaway line in SS and that's literally it, that is quite literally the only actual real fallout from his death in the dceu
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Dec 1, 2017 01:32
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He’s literally been dead for one movie timeline-wise. Give it some room to breathe ffs
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Dec 1, 2017 01:34
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BrianWilly posted:Well, ostensibly he needed to probe her mind to find out about Kal-El’s rocket. She knows all about kals rocket  fruit on the bottom posted:I know they’re not doing this, but what if Marvel was just straight up lying about some of the movies they’ve got planned down the pipe and ended up killing Ant-Man in IW. I don't... why would you think this?
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Dec 1, 2017 01:35
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:I could be wrong, because gently caress BvS there's no way I'm going back to rewatch it and check, but doesn't Lois's investigation eventually amount to nothing because, while she discovers what's happening for the audience's benefit, she gets kidnapped before she can tell anyone and then Lex goes ahead and tells Superman anyway? Lois' investigation revealed the great (and insane or "psychotic") lengths Lex went through in order to setup the conflict between Batman and Superman, the point and namesake of the film. She uncovered the truth to prove Superman's innocence, but before she could get it out there Lex kidnapped her because the guy is always several steps ahead of everyone in the film; dude plays everyone like a fiddle. Lois wanted Swanwick (now Secretary of Defense) to go public with the information she had as well, but he refused since the information was classified.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:40
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site posted:She knows all about kals rocket I know they’re not doing this. But it would be one hell of a misdirect.
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Dec 1, 2017 01:43
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mikeraskol posted:There's no way this works I think. Studio execs would be terrified, and justifiably so, that they just poisoned the Batman character with the audience. It would also be dumb and cheap because it would literally be a mistake, which is something that BvS fucks up but CW gets right: the final fight of Batman v Superman only comes about because one party is being violently coerced into it and the other has been lied to to such an extent that their grievance is false, whereas the final fight of Civil War only comes about after all lies are revealed and represents an actual emotional conflict that can't be worked past. The "Martha!" scene is awful because it's just loving awful -- like, holy gently caress is that awful, why didn't a studio suit step in and stop Snyder -- but it's also awful because the whole thing could be, and eventually is, settled by someone explaining to Batman why Superman is fighting, which is just weak as all hell. There is not, fundamentally, any real ideological or emotional conflict that can't be settled with calm words. Zach Snyder went to enormous effort to accidentally recreate one of those stupid cliche misunderstandings that everyone complains about that cause superheroes to fight each other, and revealed it in one of the dumbest scenes in superhero moviedom. At the pinnacle of CW, Iron Man finally has all the lies stripped away and the truths revealed to him, and it drives him off the loving cliff. He knows Cap's arguments, he understands them completely, but gently caress you, that guy killed his mom. The ideological conflict is abandoned, but the emotional one remains and it's a loving powerful one. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 01:44
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teagone posted:Lois' investigation revealed the great (and insane or "psychotic") lengths Lex went through in order to setup the conflict between Batman and Superman
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Dec 1, 2017 01:47
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SonicRulez posted:I can't imagine how Superman is a terrifying concept unless you're a really harsh cynic. I guess that's why I don't like MoS and felt lukewarm about BvS. Kind man who uses his immense power to save lives because he loves the world and its people is uplifting. Superman is for children, drat it. This is just another way of saying "not my Superman" so you know. Quoting Megaman's Jockstrap's post from the CineD Justice League movie thread regarding this because it's really good: Megaman's Jockstrap posted:People fundamentally don't like the Snyder DCEU movies because they are very explicit about how being exemplary and carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders is fundamentally about making sacrifices. teagone fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 01:48
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It's really not "not my Superman" because I'm talking about someone's interpretation of the concept of Superman. Not Snyder's vision. Quoting that CineD just reminds me of how much of the zeitgeist behind these films is trying to feel smarter than someone else. Do you really think "the chains of heroism" is something that escaped me when I watched Man of Steel or Batman v Superman? It didn't. Since it's also on the page, that's very much what's going on in Civil War. The Marvel movie just made that message also interesting and fun to watch instead of boring and drab. Snyder can have his drab and charisma-less Superman if he wants. I can judge the films based on that. Don't tell me that's the way Superman should be portrayed because the concept of Superman is inherently terrifying though. It's not.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:00
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teagone posted:This is just another way of saying "not my Superman" so you know. Quoting Megaman's Jockstrap's post from the CineD Justice League movie thread regarding this because it's really good: Oh awesome, another post about how all the haters just don't "get it," that'll really endear people to your argument
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Dec 1, 2017 02:03
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SonicRulez posted:I can't imagine how Superman is a terrifying concept unless you're a really harsh cynic. I guess that's why I don't like MoS and felt lukewarm about BvS. Kind man who uses his immense power to save lives because he loves the world and its people is uplifting. Superman is for children, drat it. Really? Imagine if it was revealed tomorrow that we have proof of intelligent alien life. That in of itself could irrevocably change human culture forever, it is something so titanic in proportion we have no idea how it would change our culture. People flip out over bacteria on mars, can you imagine how we would react if there was a alien here? On earth? And add to that, that this alien could on his own decimate New York, and there's nothing we could do about it. Yeah, he's a terrifying concept alright. The thing is, Lex Luthor's point of view is not entirely unreasonable, and the movie doesn't shy away from that. Old Kentucky Shark posted:It would also be dumb and cheap because it would literally be a mistake, which is something that BvS fucks up but CW gets right: the final fight of Batman v Superman only comes about because one party is being violently coerced into it and the other has been lied to to such an extent that their grievance is false, whereas the final fight of Civil War only comes about after all lies are revealed and represents an actual emotional conflict that can't be worked past. The "Martha!" scene is awful because it's just loving awful -- like, holy gently caress is that awful, why didn't a studio suit step in and stop Snyder -- but it's also awful because the whole thing could be, and eventually is, settled by someone explaining to Batman why Superman is fighting, which is just weak as all hell. There is not, fundamentally, any real ideological or emotional conflict that can't be settled with calm words. Zach Snyder went to enormous effort to accidentally recreate one of those stupid cliche misunderstandings that everyone complains about that cause superheroes to fight each other, and revealed it in one of the dumbest scenes in superhero moviedom. I feel like you didn't get Batmans grievance here. This wasn't something that could they could just talk about. Batmans grievence is not false, Luthor just gave batman a little nudge off the cliff, but Batman was already standing at the precipice at that point. The mental trauma of zods attack sent batman into a mental tailspain, and the only thing that could break him out of this terrible cycle was a fullblown PTSD attack and the realization that he grew up to become his parents murderer.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:05
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McCloud posted:I feel like you didn't get Batmans grievance here. Okay, come the gently caress on guys, find a new line of reasoning because this one is profoundly insulting.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:07
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2 deep 4 me
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Dec 1, 2017 02:11
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Arist posted:Oh awesome, another post about how all the haters just don't "get it," that'll really endear people to your argument No, it's a good post about why a lot of people likely don't or can't connect with Snyder's version of Superman. And I'm not trying to endear anyone to anything. I'm just presenting what I think is good reasoning. SonicRulez posted:It's really not "not my Superman" because I'm talking about someone's interpretation of the concept of Superman. Not Snyder's vision. Quoting that CineD just reminds me of how much of the zeitgeist behind these films is trying to feel smarter than someone else. Do you really think "the chains of heroism" is something that escaped me when I watched Man of Steel or Batman v Superman? It didn't. Since it's also on the page, that's very much what's going on in Civil War. The Marvel movie just made that message also interesting and fun to watch instead of boring and drab. The point of that post wasn't patronizing or whatever condescending tone you might find it to have for whatever reason. I brought it up because I think it's a good explanation as to why a lot of people don't like or connect with Snyder's iteration of Superman's character, which is quite literally what you posted: "I guess that's why I don't like MoS and felt lukewarm about BvS. Kind man who uses his immense power to save lives because he loves the world and its people is uplifting. Superman is for children, drat it." In no way am I or Megaman's Jockstrap saying Snyder's version is the way Superman should be portrayed, only that its an iteration of the character that upends the material in favor of something that's more tonally serious. teagone fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 02:11
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What if Superman was a conservative and liked helping people but also had strong opinions on supply-side economics and gay marriage
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Dec 1, 2017 02:15
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Pretty much every post defending Snyder's DC movies contain some variant of "People just don't like or get what Snyder's themes are"
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Dec 1, 2017 02:16
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Roth posted:Pretty much every post defending Snyder's DC movies contain some variant of "People just don't like or get what Snyder's themes are" In time you will join us in the sun.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:20
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Roth posted:Pretty much every post defending Snyder's DC movies contain some variant of "People just don't like or get what Snyder's themes are" There's a big difference between stating that everyone that didn't like Snyders movies "didn't get it" and saying "I don't think you quite got that right" when they start saying wildly inaccurate stuff, like calling Pa Kent a child murderer, for instance.
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Dec 1, 2017 02:23
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