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peterson had a mini meltdown about that article talking about how poo poo he was making several tweets challenging the person to a debate with dave rubin moderating lmao
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Dec 1, 2017 18:46
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Kjoery posted:i'm trying to figure out what peterson do to piss them off. im thinking they just realized one day that he was extremely christian (that took a while), and their more staunchly athiest base began to turn. Here's the weird thing. Peterson is an atheist*. There's a huge asterisk there, because you need to get into his whole idea about what truth is, which was the reason Sam Harris couldn't even get past sentence one with the guy. Peterson thinks truth is, paraphrasing massively, useful mythos. If you can tell a story that makes things better, then that's "true". So he would say that the Bible is true, in that he thinks the story of Jesus is crucial to running a moral society. It's actually a really similar turn to what thinkers like Kant did when he tried to assemble morality. We need to believe in the angels for there to be morality, so the angels are real. They have to be. (Even if they aren't, we need that story either way.) Metokur is jumping all over Peterson because when Peterson gets asked if he's a believer, he backpedals. Peterson knows his audience would turn on him in a second if they realized he only advocates Christianity from a practical viewpoint. This is politicking of the highest order, and it's the thing someone like Metokur hates most. So the current battle is that Peterson and Gad Saad recommended Faith Goldy not be invited to an event. (The event had been canceled due to protest and moved, and Faith Goldy chumming it up with nazis made her too hot to handle in the meantime.) Peterson mostly because his whole career is to fight actual fascists so he won't abide this, and Saad because he's super Jewish so this is just too far for him. There is a question over whether this is too much like "deplatforming", so people are getting their cheeto bags in a wad. But for Peterson and Saad, this is consistent with their highest priority being to fight the real nazis, so the alt-righters and the misguided leftists who used issues like pronouns to lump these guys in with the actual nazis had a wakeup coming. There's a good lesson in that. tldr: If you're surprised that Peterson is fighting the literal fascists, you didn't listen to sentence one of what the guy is about. But that's not really surprising, since that's the state of modern debate. You may think he's misguided about particular issues, but the guy is trying to do good within his own person framework. Groovelord Neato posted:peterson had a mini meltdown about that article talking about how poo poo he was making several tweets challenging the person to a debate with dave rubin moderating lmao He said Rubin Report offered to host, but the debate could be held anywhere. https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/936405989909237760
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Dec 1, 2017 18:54
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"Actual fascists": postmodern neomarxist social justice professors who say mean things about him Not "actual fascists": white supremacists aware of dog fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 18:59
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Eh someone who is actually sincerely turbochristian would probably not get on with actual unironic hitler had the right idea fascists cos they tend not to have a pretty different concept of morality. Doesn't mean they aren't shitheads though or that they don't support a whole load of awful stuff regardless.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:02
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Also to dig up a subject from a while ago, Jesse Singal deleted his twitter after going on a tirade yesterday about how progressives actually agree with him about trans people but are too afraid to admit it
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Dec 1, 2017 19:14
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aware of dog posted:Also to dig up a subject from a while ago, Jesse Singal deleted his twitter after going on a tirade yesterday about how progressives actually agree with him about trans people but are too afraid to admit it 
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Dec 1, 2017 19:32
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Which one is he, again?
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Dec 1, 2017 19:34
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What does agreeing with him mean given that I thought he was still trying to pretend that he's pro trans?Goon Danton posted:Which one is he, again? Journo who publishes all the hand wringing articles about trans acceptance going too far under the guise of being sympathetic but concerned for the children.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:35
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revwinnebago posted:There's a huge asterisk there, because you need to get into his whole idea about what truth is, which was the reason Sam Harris couldn't even get past sentence one with the guy. Peterson thinks truth is, paraphrasing massively, useful mythos. Is that why his fans keep saying he's playing 12d chess and operating on a level far too few people understand?
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Dec 1, 2017 19:41
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aware of dog posted:Also to dig up a subject from a while ago, Jesse Singal deleted his twitter after going on a tirade yesterday about how progressives actually agree with him about trans people but are too afraid to admit it dae anyone with morality that differs from yours is virtue signaling???
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Dec 1, 2017 19:44
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OwlFancier posted:What does agreeing with him mean given that I thought he was still trying to pretend that he's pro trans? I'm not too clear on the details but iirc he posted an article from The American Conservative (surely an unbiased source if here ever was one) about trans people and said that progressives agreed with it but wouldn't admit it. I would guess it would mean that he thinks people share his hand-wringing feelings about trans people and other "gender-critical" ideas, but I don't really know for sure.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:46
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Goon Danton posted:Which one is he, again? Guy who is polite to trans people but published dozens of hand wringing articles about if we're going too far in accepting trans people because what about the CHILDREN and advocates for conversion therepy for trans kids cause it's less harmful than letting them go on as trans. He wrote a glowing puff piece on Contra and when people pointed out "Hey that dude's hosed up!" she ignored every telling her their experiences with him and defended him saying "I know what a TERF looks like he's not a TERF cause he didn't misgender me in his article." Which kind of the start of The Troubles Contra's been having with the trans community.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:49
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revwinnebago posted:you didn't listen to sentence one of what the guy is about. But that's not really surprising, since that's the state of modern debate. You may think he's misguided about particular issues, but the guy is trying to do good within his own person framework.
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Dec 1, 2017 19:55
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like, just because someone blows a fat vape on H3H3 podcast doesn't mean they don't pander to insane wingnuts
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Dec 1, 2017 19:59
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aware of dog posted:I'm not too clear on the details but iirc he posted an article from The American Conservative (surely an unbiased source if here ever was one) about trans people and said that progressives agreed with it but wouldn't admit it. I would guess it would mean that he thinks people share his hand-wringing feelings about trans people and other "gender-critical" ideas, but I don't really know for sure. Yes it was this article which caused a stir awhile back (and Singal was doing some of the stirring.) I think this happened because he was trying to push his weaselly anti-trans wedge around and got insulted instead (thread includes some amount of lowtax.) https://twitter.com/crulge/status/936325633898053633
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Dec 1, 2017 20:20
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https://twitter.com/youremailaddy/status/936361286438412288 I for one am absolutely incensed by the idea that my gender is socially constructed. Can't loving stop raging about it. Defining aspect of being cisgender, unable to conscience the possibility that gender is not intrinsic.
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Dec 1, 2017 20:25
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OwlFancier posted:Eh someone who is actually sincerely turbochristian would probably not get on with actual unironic hitler had the right idea fascists As soon as they can find a group of them that downplay "Gas the jews" enough, fundamentalist christians are often pretty happy to jump in that camp, I've seen this happen not just a ton online, but in-person more than once.
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Dec 1, 2017 20:49
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Yardbomb posted:As soon as they can find a group of them that downplay "Gas the jews" enough, fundamentalist christians are often pretty happy to jump in that camp, I've seen this happen not just a ton online, but in-person more than once. I'd suggest that's probably because at least specifically American Evangelical Christianity is as much a political movement as it is a religion and is also rather coercive, and thus probably has a lot of people who aren't really very religious but are very republican and very angry. But fundamentally I don't know that actual belief in god and an old religion is necessarily easily compatible with hitler brand fascism's obsession with creating false traditionalism and rather materialistic bent. Though obviously they can easily have common ground on a bunch of social issues, I just don't think someone who's introspectively religious is going to find fascism super compatible if they really understand it. They'll probably also have some gripes with communism too as it's often a fairly explicit rejection of spirituality.
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Dec 1, 2017 21:01
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OwlFancier posted:Eh someone who is actually sincerely turbochristian would probably not get on with actual unironic hitler had the right idea fascists cos they tend not to have a pretty different concept of morality. Lol if oyu don't think they'd be on board for the extermination of Sexual/Gender minorities and PoC as soon as the nazi's cooled down the "And the jews!" part of it.
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Dec 1, 2017 21:04
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Yes but they want to do that for different reasons. Like I can find myself functionally on the side of liberals in the EU referendum but they're supporting it because it makes them rich while I support it because I hope it may help erase the concept of national identities and serve ultimately to unite people internationally against capital. We want the same thing right now but we definitely won't get along later.
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Dec 1, 2017 21:09
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Yardbomb posted:As soon as they can find a group of them that downplay "Gas the jews" enough, fundamentalist christians are often pretty happy to jump in that camp, I've seen this happen not just a ton online, but in-person more than once. I feel like if we lived in a society that condoned antisemitism and if we didn't have the history of WW2, they would be totally fine with joining the Nazis. One of the only reasons they don't is that the history of WW2 makes the patriotism instinct conflict with the racism. OwlFancier posted:Yes but they want to do that for different reasons. Like I can find myself functionally on the side of liberals in the EU referendum but they're supporting it because it makes them rich while I support it because I hope it may help erase the concept of national identities and serve ultimately to unite people internationally against capital. We want the same thing right now but we definitely won't get along later. This is the way I feel about the upper middle class (like the top 10-20%). It makes sense to ally with them in the short term to accomplish things like social justice goals and unite against the top 1%, but in the long run we'll probably conflict with them because a truly equitable society would be worse for them than the status quo (at least in terms of their personal wealth).
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Dec 1, 2017 21:09
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Its simple, Just replace "gas the Jews" with "gas the Muslims" and you got your Fundie Christian support
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Dec 1, 2017 21:26
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OwlFancier posted:https://twitter.com/youremailaddy/status/936361286438412288 I'm struggling to think of anyone who is offended by the idea of gender being a social construct who isn't on the right.
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Dec 1, 2017 21:49
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How the hell is Peterson so successful? I mean, he's like THE most successful alt-right pandering youtuber (that's not already a well known factor like Alex Jones, etc.) in history. The amount of money he collects on his patreon far surpasses that of even Sargon. And yet, the main source of his claim to fame is that he...didn't want to use certain pronouns for transgender people.Kjoery posted:we're talking about the same Jordan "postmodern far-leftist cultural marxists are destroying academia & western civilization" Peterson here right? Was just about to say. This dude says a LOT of poo poo that would be just in line with the Spencer crowd.
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Dec 1, 2017 21:53
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Guavanaut posted:Even the TERFs agree that gender is socially constructed, they just believe that it should be abolished entirely, regardless of who gets hurt along the way. Difference feminists and moon magic pagan idiots?
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Dec 1, 2017 21:54
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Mr Interweb posted:How the hell is Peterson so successful? I mean, he's like THE most successful alt-right pandering youtuber (that's not already a well known factor like Alex Jones, etc.) in history. The amount of money he collects on his patreon far surpasses that of even Sargon. And yet, the main source of his claim to fame is that he...didn't want to use certain pronouns for transgender people. You just don't get his wisdom. He's fighting Nazis and fascists.
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Dec 1, 2017 22:01
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multijoe posted:To be honest I don't know why SJ-left twitter feels they own Contra to the point they can dictate how and how not she spreads her message. Whether or not you think meeting the right head-on on their own ground is a worthwhile tactic, it's clear she's acting in good faith and at least trying to engage with the subset of the alt-right who genuinely mean what they say about freedom of speech and logic and debate and entirely consistent with her long-stated belief of engaging with her ideological opponents. The left cares about the issues and right wingers about ego stroking. Which is a good thing until someone just decides to leave the left because its fatiguing to always be judged even when you are trying your best.
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Dec 1, 2017 22:03
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aware of dog posted:You just don't get his wisdom. He's fighting Nazis and fascists. crime weed fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 22:03
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Kjoery posted:oh no, I think I get it. you see, at first, there were no facists or nazis, or he had to create them initially, so that he fight them. its all part of his 17d strategio brain genius psyche Woah you're right. Now that's definitely worth $60K* a month on patreon. *Guessing cause he made the amount of money he makes private
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Dec 1, 2017 22:08
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revwinnebago posted:Here's the weird thing. Peterson is an atheist*. Derrrrrr what? That is a very weird combination of Straussism and nihilism. The post-modernism is coming from inside the house. I'm not sure Foucault or Barthes would disagree with Jordy's epistemology at all.
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Dec 1, 2017 23:16
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There was one weird person on reddit I argued with who claimed he was supportive of LBGTQ rights and stuff but argued that holding the position "Gender is a social construct" and "You can be born as the wrong sex." were contradictory positions to hold, other people jumped on him but ultimately he felt it was like "Having your cake and eating it." e: On the topic of wtf reddit arguments, I had one person one time respond to me with "Why?" in all seriousness to my claim that "Sentient robots/AI should obviously have rights."; his position made no sense and I think he misread my post and then doubled down when he realized. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Dec 1, 2017 |
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Dec 1, 2017 23:20
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Raenir Salazar posted:There was one weird person on reddit I argued with who claimed he was supportive of LBGTQ rights and stuff but argued that holding the position "Gender is a social construct" and "You can be born as the wrong sex." were contradictory positions to hold, other people jumped on him but ultimately he felt it was like "Having your cake and eating it." They were equivocating gender and sex and it created a mental roadblock.
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Dec 1, 2017 23:25
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Raenir Salazar posted:There was one weird person on reddit I argued with who claimed he was supportive of LBGTQ rights and stuff but argued that holding the position "Gender is a social construct" and "You can be born as the wrong sex." were contradictory positions to hold, other people jumped on him but ultimately he felt it was like "Having your cake and eating it." quote:e: On the topic of wtf reddit arguments, I had one person one time respond to me with "Why?" in all seriousness to my claim that "Sentient robots/AI should obviously have rights."; his position made no sense and I think he misread my post and then doubled down when he realized.
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Dec 1, 2017 23:34
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Raenir Salazar posted:There was one weird person on reddit I argued with who claimed he was supportive of LBGTQ rights and stuff but argued that holding the position "Gender is a social construct" and "You can be born as the wrong sex." were contradictory positions to hold, other people jumped on him but ultimately he felt it was like "Having your cake and eating it." It is I guess if you focus on the specific phrasing rather than the arguments generally advanced.
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Dec 1, 2017 23:36
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There is also the whole thing where a lot of people hear "social construct" and interpret that as meaning it is fake has no material effect on people.
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Dec 1, 2017 23:57
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LunarShadow posted:There is also the whole thing where a lot of people hear "social construct" and interpret that as meaning it is fake has no material effect on people. Yeah, the "social construct = imaginary" thing is a big trap to fall into. I'm lucky I was introduced to the idea with money as the example, because it makes it very clear how something can be a social construct and still be a very real force.
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Dec 2, 2017 00:09
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LunarShadow posted:There is also the whole thing where a lot of people hear "social construct" and interpret that as meaning it is fake has no material effect on people. Unfortunately using the money example (which is a good one) with that particular group is a great way to end up in purestrain gold land.
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Dec 2, 2017 00:28
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Goon Danton posted:Yeah, the "social construct = imaginary" thing is a big trap to fall into. I'm lucky I was introduced to the idea with money as the example, because it makes it very clear how something can be a social construct and still be a very real force. Unfortunately, I don't know if that's sufficient, because that seems to be a common talking point in the die-hard bitcoin corner.
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Dec 2, 2017 00:40
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If money causes issues, use government instead.
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Dec 2, 2017 00:41
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Linear Zoetrope posted:Unfortunately, I don't know if that's sufficient, because that seems to be a common talking point in the die-hard bitcoin corner. There is a species of natural-rights lunacy that probably would deny that capitalism or government are social constructions but are derived from the unity of consciousness or some horseshit.
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Dec 2, 2017 00:43
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