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Weapon limits is because there’s no great way to handle a ten weapon arsenal in a console shooter. There still isn’t so I think it’s a defensible design choice under that circumstance.
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Dec 7, 2017 13:53
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Al Cu Ad Solte posted:Are there any truly good reasons for regenerating health and weapon limits? I can't think of one. I've heard regenerating health being good for, sigh, "keeping the player in the action" but I've never been more bored with a video game then in a modern FPS and my health is low and I just have to.....stop playing for a few moments while it regenerates. Managing health in the middle of a harrowing battle will always be 100 times more enthralling to me. Regenerating health means you know the player is always at full health at the start of every fight, which means you can design fights with that in mind, instead of the player potentially being anywhere between 1 and whatever max effective HP is in your game. This removes HP management as an element of player skill, but also means players can't gently caress themselves out of progress because they took too much damage early on in a level. This is also at least partly due to the fact that movement and aiming on gamepads is harder than with m+kb, so you can expect players to take more damage (unless you make the AI really bad). Weapon limits are a necessity because of gamepads, but in theory they could encourage developers to make each gun equally powerful, just specialised for different uses. I've never been a fan of the style of arsenal design where early guns are garbage with lots of ammo, and late guns are good with very little ammo, because running out of ammo for good weapons and being forced to plink at things with a pistol feels like poo poo (Doom partly alleviates this problem by having multiple weapons that use the same ammo type and by having nearly every gun actually be useful, but the pistol is still loving garbage). Both can be used poorly or well. 
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Dec 7, 2017 |
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Dec 7, 2017 14:07
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SwissCM posted:What's frustrating is that I see AI tech used elsewhere in the industry that would work incredibly well in games. Google Assistant-like conversations with NPCs in video games would be awesome. Protip: "Deep Learning" is just a buzzword and a lot of stuff advertised as it is stuff that would be advertised as "AI" like 5 years ago. skasion posted:Weapon limits is because there’s no great way to handle a ten weapon arsenal in a console shooter. There still isn’t so I think it’s a defensible design choice under that circumstance. What  GTA V's weapon wheel easily lets you switch between 8 killin' options instantly and then using the side-to-side selection within each category easilly gives you dozens of options to handle at once. And since you can play the game entirely in first person mode, you can't say it doesn't work in first-person shooting either.
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Dec 7, 2017 14:17
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skasion posted:Weapon limits is because there’s no great way to handle a ten weapon arsenal in a console shooter. There still isn’t so I think it’s a defensible design choice under that circumstance. My dude never heard of the weapon wheel I see.
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Dec 7, 2017 14:19
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Weapon wheels are ok as a makeshift, but you’re not going to convince me they’re as good as a numrow, sorry.
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Dec 7, 2017 14:29
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Turok 2 sized wheels where you have to mess with it while getting shot have always felt fiddly to me and infuriated me. IMO weapon wheels are only manageable when the game pauses or slows down when the wheel is open. But if your game is multiplayer or coop, you can't pause the game when the wheel is open. 4 weapons on the d-pad is my preference over a weapon wheel.
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Dec 7, 2017 14:36
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skasion posted:Weapon limits is because there’s no great way to handle a ten weapon arsenal in a console shooter. There still isn’t so I think it’s a defensible design choice under that circumstance.  If you are good at switching is faster than using mouse wheel to cycle through all your weapons. On PS4 works perfectly and on PC I had to bind EVERY gun to a single key (mwheel up for super shotgun, mwheel down for rocket launcher and so on). No, there are no reasons for weapon limits at all. You can handle it like in The Last of Us where you had a backpack you used in real time to switch the ones you had at hand at any moment. skasion posted:Weapon wheels are ok as a makeshift, but you’re not going to convince me they’re as good as a numrow, sorry. Numrow is awful when you have more than five weapons. If a game supports it I'll end setting up a button for every weapon or a switch like having two on the same key.
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Dec 7, 2017 14:42
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skasion posted:Weapon wheels are ok as a makeshift, but you’re not going to convince me they’re as good as a numrow, sorry. It doesn't have to be as good, just good enough.
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Dec 7, 2017 14:46
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Narcissus1916 posted:As far as I know, DarkXL is still crash-prone and won't even allow you to complete the game. DarkXL is dead forever. Its forum is only frequented by spambots. Though I do like the Markov nonsense some spambots can come up with to try to pretend to be human: quote:XL engines is normal fusion engine The last line is, of course, a link; but, you know, I don't think getting your essays written by Markov chains spambots is really such a great idea.
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Dec 7, 2017 14:53
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It's funny because that bot exclusively cribbed stuff from MechWarrior Online to write that post.
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Dec 7, 2017 14:58
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I wish double-tap bindings made their way into games more often than "almost-never", because you can really layer in a nice aresenal on just a few keys. I do insane poo poo to make double-tap bindings work using auto-hotkey, xpadder, and the steam configurator. I just want it supported in the bindings menu! Heretic 2 
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Dec 7, 2017 15:19
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The sort of inventory you put in your game really depends on how the rest of the design works, sometimes you want players to win by integrating ammo harvest into their battle plan and sometimes by committing to choices before the shooting begins. That said, the console versions of HL2 and friends did well by putting everything on a multi-level dpad menu (so, for example, you'd press down 3 times to get the crossbow or whatever). Using just the cardinal directions and 3 presses gets you 12 weapons, if you added more levels or turned it into a whole grid you could do even more. Al Cu Ad Solte posted:I recall interviews with the dude they got to voice Tommy, Michael Greyeyes, being pretty ok with it: Good enough for me, I'll update my views on Prey. All my memories are that old too.
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Dec 7, 2017 16:09
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I have a feeling the limited weapons is a holdover from the early 2000's when you had Medal of Honor and Halo limiting you to two weapons, which was very much a stylistic choice.
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Dec 7, 2017 16:45
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Halo and MoH from consoles maybe, but MoH Allied Assault (and next games) let you carry everything at the same time. There was no excuse for weapon limitation anyways because setting up a button to switch between two weapons is the same as just set it up to cycle through multiple ones or even that, a wheel. I only accept certain limitations in "realistic" games like ARMA or RainbowSix. Having a weapon limitation on arcade shooters is unforgivable in my opinion.
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Dec 7, 2017 16:53
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I'm not even remotely convinced. Pefect Dark came out in 2000 and didn't even have health pickups AT ALL. You ONLY managed your shield. Halo had non-regen health AND shield collectibles all the way up to Reach in 2010. And if console players can't just hit, say, select or something, have the game pause and then select the gun they want to use then All Is Lost. Like I love modern FPSs like Titanfall 2 but it almost feels like the developers think I'm too gott damm styoopid to go find a health pickup or something. The Far Cry games still have you managing health and those lean hard on the difficulty to encourage stealth. What was particularly weird about T2 (haha, it even has time travel) was that you didn't have regenerating health while in the Titan and had to find fuel cells I think it was to recharge BT's shield. Yes I'm bitter.  
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Dec 7, 2017 17:28
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The limited weapons never really bothered me in Halo, though with that game, all weapons have valid uses. (Even if the pistol is super OP from the get go, and obtaining a shotgun basically becomes a  moment that renders almost anything else moot. Maybe an AR for the swarms of tiny Flood things.) I haven't really played Call of Duty, but of what little I have played of it (like, bits and pieces of CoD2 at the launch of the Xbox 360?), everything felt kinda samey.Recharging health... yeah, it's basically just to guarantee every encounter starts with full health. That said, I always thought the first Halo did it best: recharging shield, but you still had a discrete health bar for when that hit zero, which didn't replenish itself and necessitated finding a health pack. Recharging health in games featuring bog-standard humans that apparently can just shrug off bullets that make their vision red by hiding for a few seconds, though, always seemed stupid - somehow more stupid than health packs that instantly heal all wounds.
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Dec 7, 2017 17:28
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so like, what's the best way to get dark forces 1 going on windows 10 then?
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Dec 7, 2017 17:38
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The first FPS I played that limited your inventory was Soldier of Fortune, and I believe it only really limited it on the higher difficulties so you had to make choices of if you wanted to take that rocket launcher you needed spa e for it. On lower difficulties you had limited space to start each mission in the load out but you could pick up any new gun in the level with no problems. I didn't play Halo until maybe 2005 and by that point I had played a fair amount of the WW2 Call of Duties. I didn't like having my inventory limited if the Master Chief was the best soldier ever created. Incidentally which console FPS was the first to have a weapon wheel? Perfect Dark was the earliest I remember, it's not perfect but it was a big improvement over Goldeneye
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Dec 7, 2017 17:55
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Shadow Hog posted:Recharging health in games featuring bog-standard humans that apparently can just shrug off bullets that make their vision red by hiding for a few seconds, though, always seemed stupid - somehow more stupid than health packs that instantly heal all wounds. The Uncharted games have a pretty clever rationalization for that- Drake doesn't have health, he has luck. All the bullets that "hit" him and tinted the screen red were actually near misses; when his luck runs out one bullet does hit him and he dies. Which is more or less how the action-adventure movies it apes have worked for decades. haveblue fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Dec 7, 2017 |
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Dec 7, 2017 18:00
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Limited gun slots work for some games, mostly where you can buy ammo so it doesn't feel like the game controls which guns you can carry through ammo drain. Then it makes the guns feel more material to me, because you have to pick which guns to invest in. It's not about realism, it's a different thing that works better for those games than a full set of guns. Far Cries for example, Bioshock Infinite too I think. When you have many guns and have to manage ammo for all of them it can get tedious.
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Dec 7, 2017 18:04
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haveblue posted:The Uncharted games have a pretty clever rationalization for that- Drake doesn't have health, he has luck. All the bullets that "hit" him and tinted the screen red were actually near misses; when his luck runs out one bullet does hit him and he dies. Which is more or less how the action-adventure movies it apes have worked for decades.
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Dec 7, 2017 18:43
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Far Cry 2 is far from perfect, but it's hard to imagine it without limited weapons and regenerating health. (Even if the latter was a little ridiculous in some ways -- cue obligatory video of the gruesome health regen animations when you're losing health due to drowning.). In cases like that, it really does enhance the gameplay because choosing what weapons to carry to a given mission is part of your strategy. And scrounging around for unconventional ways to heal yourself was also part of the story. (Even though you could still collect medkits to make it way easier.) But like anything, if it's thoughtlessly thrown in just because everyone else is doing it, it's dumb.
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Dec 7, 2017 18:46
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Shadow Hog posted:I thought this was just a fan theory, and not the actual canon answer? I don't think it's explicitly in the game anywhere but I'm pretty sure the devs have acknowledged it.
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Dec 7, 2017 18:48
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Give every shooter game an inventory/weight management system to handle weapon restrictions for you. Want to carry three guns? Sure, no problem, but that's 3 less health kits and 2 less grenades you can carry and you can only wear lighter armor. I think EYE had a pretty good system like that. STALKER does it well, you can haul a bunch of guns around if you want but you'll be slow as heck and eventually immobile if you exceed a certain weight.
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Dec 7, 2017 19:23
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It's just the price you have to pay to sell those 42069 broken AK-74s.
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Dec 7, 2017 19:26
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Shotgun Redbulls, you'll be fine.
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Dec 7, 2017 19:28
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EYE does inventory Tetris + weight penalty which your armor also counts toward. It works okay for EYE because the game is such that you can succeed just as well by being a lumbering tank festooned with guns and ammo, or a glass cannon running everywhere at 100mph. It also has a kind of neat take on regen health: health doesn’t regen by itself, you always have emergency maintenance to give you back a little bit of health, but you also can carry a medkit which slowly powers up when you wield it and can be used to heal an amount of health dependent on power. Also if you use it before it’s powered up enough it loving kills you.
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Dec 7, 2017 19:31
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Woah whining about regenerating health and weapon limits haha did we fall into a time portal to like 2005? Sir Lemming posted:But like anything, if it's thoughtlessly thrown in just because everyone else is doing it, it's dumb. Pretty much. Lots of games used both mechanics well and came out better than if they had used static health and unlimited weapons but for whatever reason we really remember the vast amount of shovelware titles that had regenerating health because "Halo had regenerating health and made bank so if we have regenerating health we'll also make bank!" I can't think of any examples where a potentially classic title was ruined by weapon limits or regenerating health so I don't really get the vendetta many FPS fans have against it.
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Dec 7, 2017 20:45
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Shadow Hog posted:The limited weapons never really bothered me in Halo, though with that game, all weapons have valid uses. (Even if the pistol is super OP from the get go, and obtaining a shotgun basically becomes a The regenerating shields+regular health combo is interesting because they went with a system like that in Bioshock Infinite and I feel like it just did not work at all.
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Dec 7, 2017 20:48
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One of my guilty pleasure FPS games from the PSX era is Codename: Tenka. The gameplay isn't that great, but always I liked how it had only one weapon which was basically a swiss army gun that would change design slightly depending on which firing mode you selected with a satisfying little robot voice.
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Dec 7, 2017 20:51
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Vakal posted:One of my guilty pleasure FPS games from the PSX era is Codename: Tenka. gently caress, I didn't think anyone else knew about this game.
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Dec 7, 2017 20:55
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Didn’t Republic Commando do that too?
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Dec 7, 2017 20:56
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Wamdoodle posted:gently caress, I didn't think anyone else knew about this game. I probably wouldn't have either if it wasn't for the demo disc that came with my PS1. I'm pretty sure if I found that disc today there would be visible laser burns on the sectors that stored the Tenka and Machine Hunter data. Vakal fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Dec 7, 2017 |
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Dec 7, 2017 20:57
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reminds me of how jak 2 and jak 3 had a universal gun that would shift to different forms when selecting a new weapon due to the modules you have attached
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Dec 7, 2017 20:58
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khwarezm posted:The regenerating shields+regular health combo is interesting because they went with a system like that in Bioshock Infinite and I feel like it just did not work at all. That's because shield values in Infinite are a loving joke until you sink a ton of upgrade points into them and healing comes in the form of either mashing use on corpses/bins/draws and hoping they contain a food item, or praying that Elizabeth decides to throw you a snack when you need it. There are many reasons Bioshock Infinite is poo poo, and that is but one of them.
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Dec 7, 2017 20:59
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Random junk food lying around that heals you for pissant amount of HP is the worst healing system
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Dec 7, 2017 21:07
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skasion posted:Random junk food lying around that heals you for pissant amount of HP is the worst healing system I like how in Wolf3D BJ would slurp up puddles of blood if you had less than 10 HP.
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Dec 7, 2017 21:12
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also, halo actually pulled off the limited weapon system well. when you have games like duke nukem forever or bioshock infinite trying to copy it but not offering reasons in the form of gameplay for it existing then that's where the issue comes in. halo has every weapon offer tangible benefits in various situations depending on what you have, and the wide availability of everything all over makes it so you don't have to grow too attached to anything. dnf was just shittily made and the system was another poorly tacked-on detail amid everything else, and infinite had the issue of tying weapon upgrades to specific things yet only letting you carry a couple at any given time. it's like they didn't think things through and just slapped it together without thinking about it much, kinda like how the reskinned plasmids and whatever the gently caress else make no sense in the slightest.
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Dec 7, 2017 21:13
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skasion posted:Random junk food lying around that heals you for pissant amount of HP is the worst healing system Yeah I hate regenerating health but I'd much rather have it than this kinda health system. Tracking back after a gun fight to grab a twinkie out of the trash can was my least favorite thing about Bioshock.
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Dec 7, 2017 21:21
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Wolfenstein TNO/TOB/TNC/BLT/ABC/As Easy As 1-2-3 also has a terrible health system in that you can scoop up armor and health stuff in little chunks all over the game world... but not automatically, you have to press E on it, so after every fight you have to run around mashing E as you look at things just so you can hoover up all their goodies and it really sucks. The New Colossus kinda sorta did away with that by making it so that BJ automatically picks things up if you walk over them and aren't looking at them (?????) but only stuff that's directly on the floor.
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Dec 7, 2017 21:24
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