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yeah you’re probably right. I’m sure they intervened and spent billions out of the goodness of their hearts, not cause they were weeks away from losing their Latakia base to the rebels 
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Dec 7, 2017 09:54
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Odobenidae posted:I don't think they're using the civil war to try to seize or gain a mediterranean port or whatever scenario that's being put forth because they've had one there since the 70s. The Russian forces were also literally invited into the conflict by the Syrian government after they requested their help. why are you appealing to the moral righteousness of agreements between bourgeois dictatorships to defend a capitalist state sending its armies around the world from charges of imperialism
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Dec 7, 2017 10:20
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What exactly is this argument over? No one seems willing to take a clear position, and is instead merely opposing the presumed stances of the opposition, which are themselves unclear.
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Dec 7, 2017 10:39
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Karl Barks posted:alright zizek 
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Dec 7, 2017 10:40
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rudatron posted:What exactly is this argument over? No one seems willing to take a clear position, and is instead merely opposing the presumed stances of the opposition, which are themselves unclear. Ok sure: 1.) Russian involvement in the Syrian Civil war is anti-imperialist, not imperialist. Syria has been fighting a war against US-backed rebels (and ISIS, but I repeat myself) and Russia has intervened on Syria's behalf against US imperialism. 2.) America is the only empire. The United States Of America is the global hegemon, the only superpower. Not Russia nor China (or loving North Korea) has the ability to project power and force upon other nations like that of the US, so much so that it is in a category of its own. A Typical Goon posted:yeah you’re probably right. I’m sure they intervened and spent billions out of the goodness of their hearts, not cause they were weeks away from losing their Latakia base to the rebels I didn't point out the fact that the Russians were invited to Syria as some sort of act of benevolence. They didn't "take advantage of a civil war" they were invited to help four years after it began, they are helping Syria fight against the US proxies and as a result are anti-imperialist.
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Dec 7, 2017 12:49
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That's an extremely narrow definition of imperialism, and also wrong. The ability to project military power globally isn't what's required for imperialism to occur, nor is that the dominant mode of imperialism today. Both the UK and France maintain extractive exploitation of African states, and neither of them really has the ability to military invade any of the countries they do that to. It's entirely through control over financial assets and such. Chinese IMperialism in Africa is also of a similar character. But even if we're limiting the definition to military imperialism through force projection, global force projection isn't a requirement - it's possible for countries to be a regional hegemon in spite of global US power, and that is exactly the position China and Russia is in (and China is well on the way, if not already, in a position to dispute US force projection globally).
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Dec 7, 2017 13:05
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And Russia' involvement in Syria isn't anti-imperialist, nor can every actor in that conflict be reduced down to an "anti-imperialist -----|------ imperialist" axis. In particular, 2 major points contradict your notion:
rudatron fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Dec 7, 2017 |
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Dec 7, 2017 13:10
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That sort of thinking is why I made this post:rudatron posted:Or perhaps more radically:
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Dec 7, 2017 13:11
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Odobenidae posted:1.) Russian involvement in the Syrian Civil war is anti-imperialist, not imperialist. Syria has been fighting a war against US-backed rebels (and ISIS, but I repeat myself) and Russia has intervened on Syria's behalf against US imperialism. that makes no sense at all dude
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Dec 7, 2017 13:12
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nations are agents of global capitalism and imperialism, irrelevant of americas position
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Dec 7, 2017 13:13
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if someone dropped a big bomb on americu. imperialism would stop existing
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Dec 7, 2017 13:14
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they can dispute it alright, but that doesn't mean they can project force themselves. they can only get combat troops to Syria right now because the government invited them. e: referring to China here
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Dec 7, 2017 13:15
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Aircraft Carriers are not the sole means of force projection, and we see with the construction of those artificial Islands by China, a desire to expand the range of China's won force projection capabilities. The bases themselves aren't useful, but all China really needs are maybe a couple of nearby countries to lease space for some airfields, and it too will have a major force projection capability over the Asia Pacific Region, given the size and sophistication of the PLA air capability (with airlift, air radar and air interception capabilities).
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Dec 7, 2017 13:22
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China also has I think the largest sub fleet in the world, so if it has the political will to do so, it can stop any attempt at US force projection against one of their allies dead in its track.
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Dec 7, 2017 13:26
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rudatron posted:Aircraft Carriers are not the sole means of force projection, and we see with the construction of those artificial Islands by China, a desire to expand the range of China's won force projection capabilities. The bases themselves aren't useful, but all China really needs are maybe a couple of nearby countries to lease space for some airfields, and it too will have a major force projection capability over the Asia Pacific Region, given the size and sophistication of the PLA air capability (with airlift, air radar and air interception capabilities). The point is that they don't have the overseas bases that are necessary to realize global force projection, and since you brought up aircraft carriers they don't really have a navy for it either - but I suppose in this day and age you can pretty much bet on never having to go toe to toe with another nuclear power anyway, which is why America's navy is so redundant. If there's anywhere China can build up that kind of military lease network it's going to be in Africa. quote:It has also taken on the form of a Sunni/Shia sectarian conflict, that is the responsibility of neither the US nor Russia, but the result of said actors trying to make a claim. The United States was training Shia death squads to use power drills on Sunnis, so they could ethnically cleanse Baghdad just to make the occupation easier for us. We for goddamn sure bear responsibility.
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Dec 7, 2017 13:26
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Odobenidae posted:Ok sure: the Vietnam war wasn’t imperialist, because America was just helping their ally South Vietnam against a Viet Cong uprising You do get how loving stupid you are, right? I mean you are openly supporting a bourgeoisie fascist regime while simultaneously claiming to be a leftist A Typical Goon fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Dec 7, 2017 |
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Dec 7, 2017 13:32
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I think it's a gross misapprehension to claim that either the Bush or Obama administration was attempting to stir up some Sunni/Shia conflict, it doesn't serve their interests and didn't fit with their broader foreign policy goals. I've no doubt they exploited ethnic and sectarian militias, but when the shia Iraq government tried to make an anti-sunni play, for example, the US dropped them like a stone. But I doubt Trump gives a poo poo, so maybe that's changed. Of course, ultimately responsibility for Iraq and ISIS lies with the US, because it's a direct result of their invasion, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the sectarian conflict either originates or was being accelerated by them.
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Dec 7, 2017 13:35
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rudatron posted:I think it's a gross misapprehension to claim that either the Bush or Obama administration was attempting to stir up some Sunni/Shia conflict, it doesn't serve their interests and didn't fit with their broader foreign policy goals. Well that's tough poo poo, because they did. Agitating the sectarian dimensions of the Iraq War was an intentional strategy to relieve the occupation on American forces. At the very least, ISIS is directly descended from Al Qaeda in Iraq, which could only operate and accumulate power because America invaded and destroyed the Iraqi state.
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Dec 7, 2017 13:39
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I'm not loving this Robert Service biography of Lenin I picked up at the London library show a few months back. I'm not looking forward to picking up the Stalin one, either. Any recs on other authors?
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Dec 7, 2017 13:52
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bitmap posted:I'm not loving this Robert Service biography of Lenin I picked up at the London library show a few months back. I'm not looking forward to picking up the Stalin one, either. Any recs on other authors? Seems like most people are fans of Stephan Kotkin’s biographies of Stalin very extensive and well researched while Kotkin keeps himself quite unbiased and objective, at least in the first book. Might look for something else if you’re not interested in two massive books that only take you until 1941 however
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Dec 7, 2017 14:14
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Kotkin is certainly anticommunist but he lays out his assumptions and treats his subjects with good faith, without demonizing them, and lucidly outlines vast historical trends to contextualize events of the revolution. ML’s really liked Volume I of his stalin bio since it was clearly written with an eye towards repudiating the Trotsky thesis of Stalin’s rise etc. Anyway I’m on vacation so I’m gonna sign off for a few days. Later.
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Dec 7, 2017 14:24
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Hey, A Typical Goon, can you clarify what meaning you're attaching to "fascist" in your recent posts?
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Dec 7, 2017 14:50
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Not sure if this is what he meant, but there is definitely a line of thought that baathism is Arab facism
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Dec 7, 2017 15:38
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Let's come together in our hatred of dumbass finance imperialist morons https://twitter.com/Jason/status/938602988691529728
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Dec 7, 2017 15:42
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Karl Barks posted:Not sure if this is what he meant, but there is definitely a line of thought that baathism is Arab facism It's not a very well thought out line, because the Syrian Ba'ath tolerates political pluralism even if they make sure they're always on top.
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Dec 7, 2017 15:49
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Karl Barks posted:Let's come together in our hatred of dumbass finance imperialist morons https://twitter.com/eshaLegal/status/938612684928503808 lmao
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Dec 7, 2017 15:50
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rudatron posted:(and China is well on the way, if not already, in a position to dispute US force projection globally). This is hilariously wrong. The US far ahead of China technologically and the imminent deployment of naval railguns will obsolesce both carrier fleets and the missile swarms intended to counter them. US global hegemony isn't going away without massive cuts to the defense budget.
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Dec 7, 2017 15:55
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Naval railguns still need a ton of electricity to effectively operate, and it could be more than a decade before they can be deployed in any meaningful numbers. The Chinese already have a ballistic missile that can kinetically wipe out carriers by plunging from near-orbit.
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Dec 7, 2017 15:59
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The majority of US tech development is largely speculative and, while cutting edge, necessarily always carries large risks of failure, to perform even equal to conventional standards. Missile defense is largely a scam, and railguns are not a viable military weapon, not unless you like the idea of replacing the barrel every time you fire a shot. There are no actually-existing or even experimentally produced materials that is capable of meeting the very high requirements that a railgun presents. Whereas, all China has to do to replace the US as global power, is upgrade it's equipment to state-of-the-art, and expand military spending. The higher industrial capacity and total population of China vs. the US will take care of the rest. A task that it is well on its way to completing, thanks both to native economic development, and a coordinated industrial espionage program. The US needs to always stay ahead technologically, but China only needs technological parity. rudatron fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Dec 7, 2017 |
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Dec 7, 2017 16:27
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A Typical Goon posted:Seems like most people are fans of Stephan Kotkin’s biographies of Stalin This seems to be the prevailing opinion...at 900 pages apiece and a third to come. Christ. I got a good rec for Lars Lih's Lenin from a friend. Anyone got any experience with that one?
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Dec 7, 2017 16:44
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Comedy trot option is Isaac Deutscher of course. It's actually not terrible though biased
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Dec 7, 2017 18:49
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Aeolius posted:Hey, A Typical Goon, can you clarify what meaning you're attaching to "fascist" in your recent posts? The Putin regime is fascist, or at least on the road to getting there
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Dec 7, 2017 20:21
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I'm trying to think of the mildest way to point out that restating your remark doesn't answer my question. Any ideas?
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Dec 7, 2017 21:33
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A spooky spectre is haunting lf thread, the spectre of semantics 
Yossarian-22 fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Dec 7, 2017 |
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Dec 7, 2017 21:40
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Putin has complete political and economic control of Russia. I don’t consider a token opposition that he allows to exist as political dynamism. He uses otherization of the West as well as foreign wars to project his image of a strong chauvinistic leader and to raise nationalism at home. Seems pretty fashy to me 
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Dec 7, 2017 21:49
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fascists wouldn't tolerate any opposition.
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Dec 8, 2017 01:06
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China learned from the USSR's mistakes in that it's dumb to bankrupt yourself trying to match the U.S. globally. But China has prepared to wage and win a regional war with the U.S. and it probably could do that now
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Dec 8, 2017 01:11
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the DF-21D "carrier killer" ballistic missiles are also something but i don't think U.S. carriers would get close enough for that; which is also the point and forces the carrier pilots to fly farther, use more fuel, be less combat capable, etc.
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Dec 8, 2017 01:13
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:fascists wouldn't tolerate any opposition. If you don’t think Putin could get away with having Navalny and other opposition figures rounded up and thrown in jail or killed I don’t know what to tell you. A show opposition is not an opposition
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Dec 8, 2017 01:22
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A Typical Goon posted:If you don’t think Putin could get away with having Navalny and other opposition figures rounded up and thrown in jail or killed I don’t know what to tell you. A show opposition is not an opposition navalny is a us puppet and 10x worse than putin
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Dec 8, 2017 01:26
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