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punk rebel ecks posted:Yeah. It would mean that like 1 in 2 liberal White South Africans legally brought his record then. He'd have to be like Michael Jackson Thriller popular. Maybe more like 1 in 5 if you account for the likely overclaim in the lawsuit? And you're talking about a demographic that's already a subset of a subset, so maybe more like, say, Nirvana or Guns N Roses popular. Actually, purely anecdotally, I'd say that's probably not a bad comparison in terms of popularity. E: \/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Yep. Lead out in cuffs fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Dec 7, 2017 |
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Dec 6, 2017 20:59
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Maybe more like 1 in 5 if you account for the likely overclaim in the lawsuit? And you're talking about a demographic that's already a subset of a subset, so maybe more like, say, Nirvana or Guns N Roses popular. Actually, purely anecdotally, I'd say that's probably not a bad comparison in terms of popularity. I see. I assume you are from South Africa correct?
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Dec 6, 2017 22:53
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Let me tell you about anime dubbed into Zulu. Another South African chirping in here. Due to segregation and such white South Africans and black South Africans kind of developed there own popular culture. There was a bit of bleed through though, which I will come back to, but in township culture there was more of an afro-jazz scene with (now) world famous jazz musicians like Hugh Masekela, and Mariam Makebe (all totally worth a listen to). There was also quite popular pop music made by black musicians for black communities like Lucky Dube. As for the white music scene, again their were subgroups with popular Afrikaaner performers like Dirk Hoffmeyer (not worth a listen to) and generic white music like Rabbit. Stuff like Rodriguez appealed to a smaller group than the mainstream and he was really more of a cult figure. I don't really know how to explain it better than imagine a Bob Dylan in the 60's type vs Abba. Rodriguez was popular but he wasn't mainstream popular. The bleed through really came with Johnny Clegg and Jaluka which was music by a white guy with a black musicians playing pop music with a township beat. Really recommend checking out their stuff. As for South African music now, I haven't rally kept since I have left (which was sadly before the boom of Afrikaaner rock/rap). I can tell you about 90's rock music though.
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Dec 8, 2017 23:15
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At least fourteen UN peacekeepers killed in DR Congo. They were Tanzanian troops, killed by Ugandan rebels. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42285871
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Dec 8, 2017 23:28
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Madkal posted:Another South African chirping in here. Due to segregation and such white South Africans and black South Africans kind of developed there own popular culture. There was a bit of bleed through though, which I will come back to, but in township culture there was more of an afro-jazz scene with (now) world famous jazz musicians like Hugh Masekela, and Mariam Makebe (all totally worth a listen to). There was also quite popular pop music made by black musicians for black communities like Lucky Dube. As for the white music scene, again their were subgroups with popular Afrikaaner performers like Dirk Hoffmeyer (not worth a listen to) and generic white music like Rabbit. Stuff like Rodriguez appealed to a smaller group than the mainstream and he was really more of a cult figure. I don't really know how to explain it better than imagine a Bob Dylan in the 60's type vs Abba. Rodriguez was popular but he wasn't mainstream popular. i assume you've listened to Fokofpolisiekar? you wouldn't think "Afrikaans" and "punk music" would ever be a match, but they made it work and work well
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Dec 8, 2017 23:49
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South Africa has me intrigued. How would you guys say South Africa differs compare to say the United States?
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Dec 9, 2017 01:34
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punk rebel ecks posted:South Africa has me intrigued. Pretty similar just with more lions.
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Dec 9, 2017 01:36
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Better race relations
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Dec 9, 2017 02:54
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punk rebel ecks posted:South Africa has me intrigued. Black people are an oppressed majority instead of an oppressed minority.
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Dec 9, 2017 03:07
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Madkal posted:Another South African chirping in here. Due to segregation and such white South Africans and black South Africans kind of developed there own popular culture. There was a bit of bleed through though, which I will come back to, but in township culture there was more of an afro-jazz scene with (now) world famous jazz musicians like Hugh Masekela, and Mariam Makebe (all totally worth a listen to). There was also quite popular pop music made by black musicians for black communities like Lucky Dube. As for the white music scene, again their were subgroups with popular Afrikaaner performers like Dirk Hoffmeyer (not worth a listen to) and generic white music like Rabbit. Stuff like Rodriguez appealed to a smaller group than the mainstream and he was really more of a cult figure. I don't really know how to explain it better than imagine a Bob Dylan in the 60's type vs Abba. Rodriguez was popular but he wasn't mainstream popular. Yeah this. The divisions aren't as hard as they were under Apartheid (when performers of different races were banned from being on stage together), but social scenes and music are still heavily racialised. That said, listen to some Black Coffee.
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Dec 9, 2017 03:13
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Why did the White population decline so much in South Africa? Did they all move back to Europe?Lead out in cuffs posted:Yeah this. The divisions aren't as hard as they were under Apartheid (when performers of different races were banned from being on stage together), but social scenes and music are still heavily racialised. Is the music more heavily racialized than say the United States?
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Dec 9, 2017 09:42
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punk rebel ecks posted:Why did the White population decline so much in South Africa? Did they all move back to Europe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_South_African#Historical_population Yeah there was a lot of international white flight during the 90s, to the tune of about a million people. That's still less than a fifth of the population at its peak, so it wasn't an enormous decline. White South Africans have always been a minority in the country, though, being about 20% of the population a century ago, and less than 10% now. (Which makes the concentration of wealth, education, access to resources/jobs/etc among white South Africans, even more stark and unsustainable.) punk rebel ecks posted:Is the music more heavily racialized than say the United States? It's probably about the same?
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Dec 9, 2017 21:24
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In regards to music, there was a bit of racialized music I guess when I left. You had Kwait which is kind of like township rap/rap-dance music that had a minimal amount of bleed through into white mainstream music, which is kind of a shame. Fokoffpolisiekar is pretty solid Afrikaaner rock, and Jack Parrow is pretty fun Afrikaaner rap too. Another thing to take into consideration is that there was quite a bit of self-identification around music in a country like South Africa with it's multitudes of culture, so stuff like Afrikaaner folk music like Valient Swart appealed to a certain population more than it did to any other. Like I said though, musicians like like Hugh Masekela and Ladysmith Black Mumbaza did have a lot of international recognition. Sadly the amazing local bands of the 90's never got huge recognition outside of white English speaking kids (RIP Springbok Nude Girls). Honestly outside of the more localized stuff, white English music was fairly generic American sounding. There was some Afrikaaner white protest music coming out at the time too, but I really don't know much about it to really leave a comment about it. As for white flight/immigration I can talk a little bit about it from my own experience I guess, as well as someone who still has friends in SA, but this is all fairly anecdotal without figures to back it up so take it with a grain of salt. From my experience, after 1994 there was a lot of optimism in the air. Besides the hardliner Afrikaaners/nationalists most people wanted Apartheid to end (whether for selfish reasons ie to stop sanctions, or for human rights reason probably lies with the individual) but there was also a lot of nervousness and anxiousness. No-one knew how things were going to go leading up to 1994, and there was already a mini civil war between ANC and IFP in the 80's (aided by the government who was all too willing to allow black people kill each other because they are pretty much evil) which freaked people out completely, and led them to fear what a black majority rule would look like. The elections went pretty well and Mandela did a great job quelling white fears (though those fears were always still there just below the surface). After 1994 we saw a rise of a black middle class (who ironically I guess) tried to emulate the white middle class for better or worse. We also saw a major rise in crime, particularly violent crime, and sadly as the years went by a lot of the promises that the ANC made to the poor never came to fruition due to incompetence and graft. That's why you can go to an area of Soweto and find mansions on one side and shanty lacking running water and electricity on the other side. Crime was rising (against blacks and whites) and the issues that were once racial became economical. Now speaking about my family and friends who left, there started a bit of a brain drain in the late 90's/early 2000 where a lot of professionals left the country for either jobs or better pay elsewhere in the world. Trust me when I say it wasn't always an easy decision to make but when you are looking for opportunities you go to where the opportunities are. Before, a lot of the people who left South Africa were wealthy white people because they could afford to leave and had the job experience/education to get a job/appear attractive to foreign countries. In the past few years I have noticed a lot more black middle class people moving to Canada (like I said this is anecdotal) for the same reason. Seriously it is quite sad what the government has done with the country and how they have squandered the promises of 1994. There is always hope of a course correction but with each passing year....
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Dec 11, 2017 22:14
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Madkal posted:After 1994 we saw a rise of a black middle class (who ironically I guess) tried to emulate the white middle class for better or worse. We also saw a major rise in crime, particularly violent crime, and sadly as the years went by a lot of the promises that the ANC made to the poor never came to fruition due to incompetence and graft. Could you please elaborate on this? I'm interested.
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Dec 13, 2017 01:45
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punk rebel ecks posted:Could you please elaborate on this? I'm interested. Which part? Like I said I can just provide anecdotal stuff from what I saw while living in Johannesburg.
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Dec 13, 2017 01:50
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Madkal posted:Which part? Like I said I can just provide anecdotal stuff from what I saw while living in Johannesburg. - How the black middle class is acting like the white class - The false promises the government failed to deliver and why - What the government is like now
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Dec 13, 2017 02:30
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So Ramaphosa done won it. Seemed inevitable there the last couple of days. Mabuza getting the deputy spot out of the blue may be to Ramaphosa's advantage, keeps the Premier league happy and might dial back any obstruction from them Can't imagine KZN are overly thrilled though - guess it comes down to how difficult they want to be. Running the ANC without much support from KZN will uh interesting... Also https://twitter.com/eNCA/status/94281296847093350 lol kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 22:35
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I read a Reuters story on this which framed it as anti-corruption and centrist economic policy (Ramaphosa) vs. further social/economic change (Dlamini-Zuma) which I thought was sort of interesting. Most of the time when I see a framing like that in other countries I dismiss the corruption concerns as a distraction from the real problems, but from reading this thread and whatever news stories come up in major newspapers, I don't do that for South Africa since it seems like corruption in the ANC is such a huge problem. I guess it's also easier to roll your eyes at Dlamini-Zuma's economic rhetoric when Zuma has done so little on that front.
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Dec 19, 2017 02:02
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Isn't Ramaphosa the corrupt oligarch who was jerking off to union busting at the mines?
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Dec 19, 2017 02:21
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Horseshoe theory posted:Isn't Ramaphosa the corrupt oligarch who was jerking off to union busting at the mines? He is a massively rich businessman who called for action to be taken at Marikana. Corrupt? Eh not so clear. Especially when compared to his opponent who, while perhaps not being corrupt herself, drew support from a laundry list of ANC big wigs implicated in the never ending Guptagate scandal (a theory that been rolling for a while is that Zuma primarily wanted NDZ to win to ensure a pardon for him if he goes to trial for his long standing corruption charges - which doesn't seem unlikely). Granted, a lot of these lads (David Mabuza and Ace Magashule who are both hilariously corrupt) have won positions in the ANCs top six beating out candidates from the Ramaphosa slate, but he's generally seen as the best positioned to lead a much needed anti-corruption drive within the party. That's one of the reasons why the Communist party and the Trade unions backed Ramaphosa over NDZ - she may have leaned more towards the Zuma populist policy streak but that factions history of blatant corruption and corporate favours hardly won their approval.
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Dec 19, 2017 07:02
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Badger of Basra posted:I read a Reuters story on this which framed it as anti-corruption and centrist economic policy (Ramaphosa) vs. further social/economic change (Dlamini-Zuma) which I thought was sort of interesting. Most of the time when I see a framing like that in other countries I dismiss the corruption concerns as a distraction from the real problems, but from reading this thread and whatever news stories come up in major newspapers, I don't do that for South Africa since it seems like corruption in the ANC is such a huge problem. I guess it's also easier to roll your eyes at Dlamini-Zuma's economic rhetoric when Zuma has done so little on that front. Absolutely. I mean, the economic/social concerns are a real problem too, but Zuma was simultaneously corrupt and not very effective at bringing about socio-economic change, despite his rhetoric.
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Dec 19, 2017 08:02
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punk rebel ecks posted:- How the black middle class is acting like the white class This is really complicated, and there some aspects of madkal's post that don't quite sit right, but: - The middle class has diversified, to the point where black people (and people of other previously-marginalised races) make up a significant fraction of it. - Despite this, the racial wage gap has widened substantially since Apartheid ended. White South Africans are richer than ever. So in this way the government pretty much failed to live up to some of the promises of the early activist days (e.g. the Freedom Charter). Unfortunately the ANC has had to walk a tightrope between trying to effect social change while playing by the rules of a globalised neoliberal economy (which has made rich people richer the world over). - On the upside, the country has a really solid constitution, with solid labour protections, protections against a huge range of prejudice as well as pretty novel things like environmental protection. In this way, it makes the United States look like a banana republic. - Also on the upside, a whole hell of a lot of really, really poor people have been provided with basic services like water, electricity and housing, which they did not have under apartheid. In this way the government did keep some of its promises. - On the downside, Zuma has been a deeply anti-democratic president (which is kind of what you get when you elect an ex-spy to your highest office -- see Putin), complete with party purges and shady internal secret party police. Actually it's kind of funny how much Trump seems to be following the same trajectory. - On the upside?, he's likely to now be replaced by Cyril Ramaphosa, who at least is probably not corrupt, although he is also a massively rich businessman benefiting from globalism and neoliberalism.
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Dec 19, 2017 08:16
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Lead out in cuffs posted:This is really complicated, and there some aspects of madkal's post that don't quite sit right, but: Thanks. This helps explain a lot. South Africa really seems to have it more together than other African countries.
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Dec 19, 2017 09:15
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Ramaphosa's first test will be coming sooner rather than later as part of the latest twist in the spy tapes scandal which has been rumbling on for a decade. It relates to 783 corruption charges against Zuma raised in relation to his relationship with businessman Schabir Shaik, who was convicted on corruption charges and sentenced to 15 years in 2005 for soliciting bribes on Zuma's behalf (without his knowledge Zuma insists). His conviction got Zuma sacked as deputy pm but the subsequent charges against Zuma imploded after tapes where presented by Zuma's legal team of recorded conversations alleging the Mbeki administration interfered in the prosecution to cripple Zuma's leadership bid (a scandal that forced Mbeki's resignation). In October the courts ruled that the dismissal of the charges where irrational and ordered them to be reinstated and passed to the national prosecution authority to be reassessed. However national director of public prosecutions Shaun Abrahams is a Zuma loyalist and it seemed unlikely he would recommend prosecution. But then last week the courts ruled that Shaun Abrahams status as public prosecutor was no longer valid due to issues with the appointment of his predecessor - the courts have instructed Abrahams to make no decision regarding the Zuma charges pending the appointment of his replacement. Ramaphosa has been drawn into this mess cause the courts have specifically said, due to Zuma's conflict of interest, it is his responsibility to appoint a new director of public prosecutions within two months, who will then decide how to progress with the corruption charges against Zuma. Who Ramaphosa decides to appoint is his first real test of how seriously he will tackle corruption - if he whiffs this and plays it safe some of the optimism about his willingness to tackle endemic corruption will evaporate p quickly.
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Dec 19, 2017 09:45
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Lead out in cuffs posted:
One thing I wondered about this: was it because the poorer white South Africans mostly left because they were poor but still had foreign passports, and only the richer ones mostly stayed (i.e. those with more invested in South Africa), or is it that the wage gap has absolutely grown, regardless of the white flight? (Edit: I see that actually 'only'' 15% left, a lot less than I thought.)
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Dec 19, 2017 12:26
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Saladman posted:One thing I wondered about this: was it because the poorer white South Africans mostly left because they were poor but still had foreign passports, and only the richer ones mostly stayed (i.e. those with more invested in South Africa), or is it that the wage gap has absolutely grown, regardless of the white flight? (Edit: I see that actually 'only'' 15% left, a lot less than I thought.) More the latter, I'd say. Emigration needs a foreign passport, a lot of money, or significant skills. Especially in the 90s there was a lot of talk about the "brain drain" due to white flight.
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Dec 19, 2017 19:04
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 http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/12/05/worldwide-people-divided-on-whether-life-today-is-better-than-in-the-past/
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Jan 4, 2018 03:57
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punk rebel ecks posted:
 I mean that's one part white whining and one part the reasonably objective fact that yes, white South Africans are worse off than at the height of Apartheid (when the whole country explicitly revolved around them).
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Jan 4, 2018 05:17
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Lead out in cuffs posted:
I'm more shocked that half of all blacks and most mixed race believe that things were better fifty years ago.
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Jan 4, 2018 05:55
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punk rebel ecks posted:I'm more shocked that half of all blacks and most mixed race believe that things were better fifty years ago.
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Jan 4, 2018 13:00
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48% of black South Africans and 63% of mixed-race people thinking life was better in apartheid era late 1960s South Africa is a pretty damning indictment of the ANC's performance over the last two decades.
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Jan 4, 2018 14:15
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They might just feel that things haven't improved, instead of worsened.
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Jan 4, 2018 15:07
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Anecdotally I'm not hugely surprised at the data for coloured people (though 60+ is steeper than what I was expecting). They've seen increased unemployment and an explosion of gang violence (with homicide rates for coloured men and women exploding to over double that of any other race from 94 onwards) with little dividends - the sentiment that the ANC don't care about coloured people isn't unpopular.
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Jan 4, 2018 15:49
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kustomkarkommando posted:They've seen increased unemployment and an explosion of gang violence (with homicide rates for coloured men and women exploding to over double that of any other race from 94 onwards) with little dividends - the sentiment that the ANC don't care about coloured people isn't unpopular. Mixed race people are hated by the blacks?
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Jan 4, 2018 19:44
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punk rebel ecks posted:Mixed race people are hated by the blacks? Don't know where you're getting that from - coloured people as a distinct Afrikaans speaking cultural group meant that they often mobilised through specific community political formations (much like say natal Indians) with distinct community interests. Though the ANC established relations with some (and there are several prominent coloured people in the ANC) and coloured people where at the forefront of opposing apartheid and where key movers in the broad based UDF movement the party often struggled to attract the "coloured vote" en mass - the linguistic issue and coloured concerns about marginalisation from broad based black empowerment along with the reformed national party heavily targeting coloured voters in 94 meant that the broad unity of the UDF didn't materialise to direct ANC support. The ANC struggling to capture the "coloured vote" in the Western Cape is one of the reasons why the DA has maintained control there, with many coloured supporters voting DA which has several high placed coloured people with a long history of politics within the community. Though the black community and coloured community face the same issues (endemic poverty, high crime etc) the coloured vote has tended to gravitate to smaller parties with concerns that coloured issues are largely subsumed by black issues within the ANC. Edit: though of course all that's got plenty of caveats but that's the general broad strokes received wisdom
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Jan 4, 2018 20:23
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punk rebel ecks posted:Mixed race people are hated by the blacks? In the context of South Africa, "Mixed race" is really not a good term for the Coloured community - its a fairly diverse group with descendents from Khoisan peoples and Indonesian slaves in addition to mixed race heritage (there's a bit of that in all the groups really). Unless they actually do have parents of different races, calling a South African Coloured a "mixed race" person is really not recommended.
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Jan 5, 2018 09:44
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chestnut santabag posted:In the context of South Africa, "Mixed race" is really not a good term for the Coloured community - its a fairly diverse group with descendents from Khoisan peoples and Indonesian slaves in addition to mixed race heritage (there's a bit of that in all the groups really). So what is recommended instead?
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Jan 5, 2018 09:52
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lollontee posted:So what is recommended instead? Coloured.
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Jan 5, 2018 09:59
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Saladman posted:Coloured. This is one of those things that Americans will always have trouble with because if you call someone "coloured" in the US you'll probably get punched.
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Jan 5, 2018 15:47
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I'm asking what the appreciable difference between "coloured" and "black" communities is? If it's a "fairly diverse group", then what is it exactly that defines whether or not someone belongs to that group? I don't get what the identity being declared here is about is what I'm saying.
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Jan 6, 2018 14:06
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