Bitcoin: no angel investors, only Faustian bargains

The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > Bitcoin: no angel investors, only Faustian bargains

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Computer Serf posted:

it's difficult to accept things have changed in the last 5 years but believe it or not, bitcoin is about to be traded on nasdaq and yes there are several licensed startups who give cash for satoshi beanie babies.

look up GDAX

I can't - I'm too busy waiting for the cryptosearch to clear for when I googled ron paul

# ? Dec 8, 2017 23:44

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# ? May 23, 2024 22:22

Soylent Yellow: Nov 5, 2010; yospos

WalletBeef posted:

This is like watching a global version of musical chairs. Except when the music stops, your chair and the entire house is gone.

As time progresses, the chance of any bitcoin exchange being rendered insolvent due to hacking, operator theft or sheer incompetence approaches one. I wouldn't be too surprised if most exchanges have already reached this point and that their normal operational pattern is to see how long they can wallpaper over their screwup with new deposits before jumping ship.

# ? Dec 8, 2017 23:55

Sickening: Jul 16, 2007; Black summer was the best summer.

So lets say coinbase suddenly changes their fees without notice. Lets say they also charge the fees but then don't handle the transaction that you paid the fee for. What is the recourse besides frantically posting on reddit? At what point does coinbase just make a lot of money and give nothing back?

# ? Dec 8, 2017 23:59

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

Sickening posted:

So lets say coinbase suddenly changes their fees without notice. Lets say they also charge the fees but then don't handle the transaction that you paid the fee for. What is the recourse besides frantically posting on reddit? At what point does coinbase just make a lot of money and give nothing back?

You could write a sternly-worded letter to your city council

# ? Dec 9, 2017 00:15

putin is a cunt: Apr 5, 2007; BOY DO I SURE ENJOY TRASH. THERE'S NOTHING MORE I LOVE THAN TO SIT DOWN IN FRONT OF THE BIG SCREEN AND EAT A BIIIIG STEAMY BOWL OF SHIT. WARNER BROS CAN COME OVER TO MY HOUSE AND ASSFUCK MY MOM WHILE I WATCH AND I WOULD CERTIFY IT FRESH, NO QUESTION

Bitcoin is a store of value so you just never remove your Bitcoins duh.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 00:17

Lawrence Gilchrist: Mar 31, 2010

Sickening posted:

So lets say coinbase suddenly changes their fees without notice. Lets say they also charge the fees but then don't handle the transaction that you paid the fee for. What is the recourse besides frantically posting on reddit? At what point does coinbase just make a lot of money and give nothing back?

This sounds a lot like when atm fees were introduced

# ? Dec 9, 2017 00:18

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

a hot gujju bhabhi posted:

Bitcoin is a store of value so you just never remove your Bitcoins duh.

Do people ever use their butts for collateral for actual things? That would make some sense at least.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 00:24

treerat: Oct 4, 2005; up here so high i start to shake up here so high the sky i scrape

FAGGY CLAUSE posted:

Any good resources out there for really undestanding blockchain? It seems like something my firm is trying to push/sell/create buzz around it, but either I'm too dumb to understand it or it makes no sense given the proposed applications.

understand what about blockchain? blockchains are immutable distributed ledgers, cryptocurrencies are tradable blockchain tokens. since you mention hype it sounds like your firm is probably interested in trading cryptocurrencies and not like, implementing blockchain supply chain management or whatever

# ? Dec 9, 2017 00:31

wit: Jul 26, 2011

PSA: You made the number up and no you cannot ever get that money out unless you own exactly one bitcoin and are willing to indian jones it and leave bitcoin for dust.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 00:40

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

Lawrence Gilchrist posted:

This sounds a lot like when atm fees were introduced

ATM fees are more like having to pay a transaction fee to get the bitcoin network to move bitcoins from one place to another. The more analogous real-life example would be going to a Chase Bank ATM and trying to withdraw money from your Chase Bank Checking Account and being told that the withdrawal will take 4 days and will cost $50

Have banks ever charged fees for using their own ATMs?

# ? Dec 9, 2017 00:46

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

QuarkJets posted:

ATM fees are more like having to pay a transaction fee to get the bitcoin network to move bitcoins from one place to another. The more analogous real-life example would be going to a Chase Bank ATM and trying to withdraw money from your Chase Bank Checking Account and being told that the withdrawal will take 4 days and will cost $50

Have banks ever charged fees for using their own ATMs?

Probably, although I think the scale is another factor here. Like, it's one thing if they give you a dollar fee when you pull out two hundred bucks, it's another if it's $80 for $200 (and also you wait three days).

# ? Dec 9, 2017 00:50

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

Nessus posted:

Do people ever use their butts for collateral for actual things? That would make some sense at least.

Maybe if you're borrowing money from your crazy cousin? Pretty sure any bank would laugh you out of the room for suggesting it.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 00:55

lazorexplosion: Mar 19, 2016

Scenes from currency of the future, in which I try to understand how bitcoin would actually work in real world situations:

I tried to pay for my car repairs with bitcoin. I put a $20 fee on it but the mechanic says it hasn't cleared yet and it's been 2 days. I NEED MY CAR FOR MY JOB

Unfortunately bitcoin fees are highly volatile and spiked to a $30 averaqe as you were placing your transaction. Currently your $20 transaction has only a limited chance of being confirmed at this stage.

So what do I do

quote:

After You�ve Sent It

If you�ve already sent a transaction and it gets stuck, that transaction can, in some cases, be made to �jump the queue.�

Opt-in Replace-by-fee

The easiest way to make your transaction jump the queue is using an option called Opt-In Replace-by-Fee (Opt-In RBF). This lets you re-send the same transaction, but with a higher fee.

In most cases, when the same transaction is re-sent over the network, but with a higher fee, the new transaction is rejected by the network. Bitcoin nodes typically consider this new transaction a double spend, and will therefore not accept or relay it.

But when sending a transaction using Opt-In RBF, you essentially tell the network you may re-send that same transaction later on, but with a higher fee. As a result, most Bitcoin nodes will accept the new transaction in favor of the older one; allowing the new transaction to jump the queue.

Whether your new transaction will be included in the very next block doesdepend on which miner mines that next block: not all miners support Opt-In RBF. However, enough miners support the option to, in all likelihood, have your transaction included in one of the next couple blocks.

Opt-In RBF is currently supported by two wallets: Electrum and GreenAddress. Depending on the wallet, you may need to enable Opt-In RBF in the settings menu before you send the (first) transaction.

Child Pays for Parent

If your wallet does not support Opt-In RBF, things get a bit more complex.

Child Pays for Parent (CPFP) may do the trick. Applying CPFP, miners don�t necessarily pick the transactions that include the most fees, but instead pick a set of transactions that include most combined fees.

Without getting into too many technical details, most outgoing transactions do not only send bitcoins to the receiver, but they also send �change� back to you. You can spend this change in a next transaction.

Some wallets let you spend this change even while it is still unconfirmed, so you can send this change to yourself in a new transaction. This time, make sure to include a high enough fee to compensate for the original low fee transaction. A miner should pick up the whole set of transactions and confirm them all at once.

If your wallet does not let you select which bitcoins to spend exactly � meaning you cannot specifically spend the unconfirmed change � you can try spending allfunds in the wallet to yourself; this should include the change.

Like Opt-In RBF, not all miners currently support CPFP. But enough of them do to probably have your transaction confirmed in one of the next blocks.

Or�

If neither Opt-In RBF nor CPFP are an option, you can technically still try and transmit the original transaction with a higher fee. This is typically referred to as �full replace-by-fee,� which some miners accept. However, publicly available wallets currently do not support this as an option.

Otherwise, you may just have to wait either until the transaction confirms or until the bitcoins reappear in your wallet. It�s important to note that until a transaction confirms, the bitcoins are technically still in your wallet � it�s just that it often doesn�t appear that way. The bitcoins are not literally �stuck� on the network and cannot get lost.

poo poo

Uh sorry.

Well can I cancel the transaction?

No you cannot cancel bitcoin transactions

Will it expire?

bitcoin wiki posted:

Transaction expiration

Transaction expiration is a common myth/misconception. Once a Bitcoin transaction is created, it never automatically expires. In theory, a transaction could be created, get stuck at 0 confirmations for some years, and then all of a sudden confirm.

Several wallets have the behavior of deleting outgoing transactions from their transaction list after a few days of being unconfirmed. This is insane, and could lead to losses. Consider the following example

You send a transaction. It gets stuck due to having a too-low fee.
Your wallet deletes the transaction after a number of days.
You still want to send the transaction, so you create a new transaction with the same value but a higher fee. This confirms.
The recipient uses child-pays-for-parent (CPFP) to get the first transaction to also confirm. You have now paid twice, losing BTC, even though the first transaction "expired".

It is possible to create two transactions that are mutually exclusive. For example, the proper way of increasing the fee in the above example would be to send another transaction that uses exactly the same coins as the first transaction. Since a single coin can't be spent more than once, only one of the transactions will ever confirm. Actual losses due to the insane expiration behavior of certain wallets are rare because wallets often accidentally use the same coins when recreating an "expired" transaction, but it is very reckless to rely on this.

This myth may have been started by Bitcoin Core's default behavior of removing transactions from its memory pool after 72 hours (later changed to 2 weeks). Due to this behavior, it became likely in most cases that a transaction would never confirm after it went 72 hours unconfirmed. However, just because most nodes will forget about a transaction doesn't mean that everyone must or will do so. You have to plan for the worst case, not the typical case.

So no or maybe? I don't know.

WTF do I do

Well, you could make another transaction with a $30 fee. Sorry, $40 fee. Use a $40 fee.

But the $500 in bitcoin I was going to use is tied up in the unconfirmed transaction and I need the rest of my bitcoin to pay the rent!

Uh, sorry about that.

Ok I borrowed some bitcoin from my mum (another $40!) and made a second transaction. What happens to the first transaction?

Uh it might go through eventually? And then he'll send it back. Minus another fee. Thank you for using the currency of the future!

# ? Dec 9, 2017 00:58

Waltzing Along: Jun 14, 2008; There's only one
Human race
Many faces
Everybody belongs here

Is there any way to make bitcoin transactions faster?

# ? Dec 9, 2017 01:48

XK: Jul 9, 2001; Star Citizen is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it's fidelity when you look out your window or when you watch youtube

Major props to the people cashing out $250,000 per 10 minutes on fantasy numbers.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 01:50

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Waltzing Along posted:

Is there any way to make bitcoin transactions faster?

Use something other than bitcoin

# ? Dec 9, 2017 02:19

divabot: Jun 17, 2015; A polite little mouse!

Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:

edit: The thing about Bitcoins is... it doesn't make sense. It's driven by stupidity, a lot of the price is just leveraged stupidity of us humans. So in that way, considering maybe 1% of people around the world have even heard about it, there's a lot of stupidity to be mined

yep. if you cashed out at $3000 and made a profit, take comfort!

this is actually insanity.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 02:24

Rock Puncher: Jul 26, 2014

Don't buy beer with bitcoin

Another problem with bitcoin payments is the surcharges � the precise amount is unknown for the customer until after the transaction is finalised.

Software engineer James Zaki found out the hard way when he purchased his first beer with bitcoin on Wednesday evening (also affectionately known as "Hump Day").

The bartender told him the beer would cost $7 (in cash), but James wanted to "have some fun" and experiment with the bitcoin technology.

Both men pulled out their smartphones � the bartender generated a QR code on his phone, which James then used his own phone to scan.

Within moments the bitcoin-for-beer transaction was finalised, and James learned the final price of his beer was a staggering $11.61.

It cost him an extra $4.61 � which is a 66 per cent surcharge.

Does he regret buying that beer?

"I have no regrets as I just wanted to try it in the real world for the first time," he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-08/tgif-just-dont-pay-for-your-beer-with-bitcoin/9242032

currency of da future

# ? Dec 9, 2017 03:47

Hillary 2024: Nov 13, 2016; by vyelkin

up Up UP!

# ? Dec 9, 2017 04:25

Comfy Fleece Sweater: Apr 2, 2013; You see, but you do not observe.

What do we need to make a bunch of micro transactions to clog the Bitcoin Blockchain? Would that be illegal?

# ? Dec 9, 2017 04:50

Fallows: Jan 20, 2005; If he waits long enough he can use his accrued interest from his savings to bring his negative checking balance back into the black.

Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:

What do we need to make a bunch of micro transactions to clog the Bitcoin Blockchain? Would that be illegal?

i think its all ready clogged from normal use lol

# ? Dec 9, 2017 04:57

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:

What do we need to make a bunch of micro transactions to clog the Bitcoin Blockchain? Would that be illegal?

Run a small gambling site

# ? Dec 9, 2017 04:58

Rock Puncher: Jul 26, 2014

Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:

What do we need to make a bunch of micro transactions to clog the Bitcoin Blockchain? Would that be illegal?

Even better if you can make it so that it appears you're selling bitcoins at a huge discount to market prices, that did a good job of crashing the opal market back in the day.

At this point it seems prudent to crash the market, it is getting way too much exposure and the irrationality is off the charts, could go horribly if it goes on too long and people are highly leveraged when it actually does crash.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 06:04

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Rock Puncher posted:

Even better if you can make it so that it appears you're selling bitcoins at a huge discount to market prices, that did a good job of crashing the opal market back in the day.

At this point it seems prudent to crash the market, it is getting way too much exposure and the irrationality is off the charts, could go horribly if it goes on too long and people are highly leveraged when it actually does crash.

The "market cap" is like 99% bullshit since most of those butts are either old or were purchased for small sums, and while I have no idea how many are in those exchanges, it's probably less than "the number lost forever to computer failures."

But if this dumb poo poo went on for a year, yeah it would probably be a big problem when it actually did popped. I wonder how Wall Street will take it if they lose a few billion.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 06:09

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

Comfy Fleece Sweater posted:

What do we need to make a bunch of micro transactions to clog the Bitcoin Blockchain? Would that be illegal?

IIRC 2-3 years ago some people were doing exactly this to show how easy it is to clog up the blockchain by just designing transactions in ways that would place a ton of extra burden on the network.

Nessus posted:

The "market cap" is like 99% bullshit since most of those butts are either old or were purchased for small sums, and while I have no idea how many are in those exchanges, it's probably less than "the number lost forever to computer failures."

But if this dumb poo poo went on for a year, yeah it would probably be a big problem when it actually did popped. I wonder how Wall Street will take it if they lose a few billion.

Market cap is 100% bullshit, not just for cryptocurrencies but stocks too

# ? Dec 9, 2017 06:49

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

QuarkJets posted:

Market cap is 100% bullshit, not just for cryptocurrencies but stocks too

Yeah? I thought it had some relation to stocks at least, which were at least in theory originally connected to an actual company which did something or other.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 07:15

Rock Puncher: Jul 26, 2014

Nessus posted:

Yeah? I thought it had some relation to stocks at least, which were at least in theory originally connected to an actual company which did something or other.

A major issue in accounting is how we value stuff like IP and other intangibles, it's estimated around 2/3rds of company value is tied up in intangibles but currently you can't recognise them on balance sheet due to strict recognition criteria - and of course the value of intangibles is highly subjective.

The result of that is that companies are valued by an irrational market instead of professionals, but hey, at least we can't be blamed for people overvaluing things I guess.

Rock Puncher fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Dec 9, 2017

# ? Dec 9, 2017 07:33

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

But the market cannot be irrational, save by the cruel hand of Government!

# ? Dec 9, 2017 07:40

Rock Puncher: Jul 26, 2014

Nessus posted:

But the market cannot be irrational, save by the cruel hand of Government!

sincerely
t. libtardian

# ? Dec 9, 2017 07:43

Good Citizen: Aug 12, 2008; trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump

Rock Puncher posted:

A major issue in accounting is how we value stuff like IP and other intangibles, it's estimated around 2/3rds of company value is tied up in intangibles but currently you can't recognise them on balance sheet due to strict recognition criteria - and of course the value of intangibles is highly subjective.

The result of that is that companies are valued by an irrational market instead of professionals, but hey, at least we can't be blamed for people overvaluing things I guess.

Intangibles are easy and not all that subjective outside of what a purchasing party is willing to pay for them and that�s more of a finance issue than an accounting issue. Besides maybe impairment I guess. I just let first year staff handle testing it because it�s not worth my time

# ? Dec 9, 2017 07:44

Rock Puncher: Jul 26, 2014

Good Citizen posted:

Intangibles are easy and not all that subjective outside of what a purchasing party is willing to pay for them and that�s more of a finance issue than an accounting issue. Besides maybe impairment I guess. I just let first year staff handle testing it because it�s not worth my time

Which measurement method do you use? Fair value? Intangibles generally aren't frequently traded.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 07:45

Dog Jones: Nov 4, 2005; by FactsAreUseless

LMFAO I just made like 2k off bitcoin because I had some left from buying drugs. Goddamn what is there to say about these loving bitcoins

# ? Dec 9, 2017 07:46

Good Citizen: Aug 12, 2008; trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump

Rock Puncher posted:

Which measurement method do you use? Fair value? Intangibles generally aren't frequently traded.

I more meant goodwill on company purchase when referring to purchase price

# ? Dec 9, 2017 07:50

Rock Puncher: Jul 26, 2014

Good Citizen posted:

I more meant goodwill on company purchase when referring to purchase price

Well that's really easy to measure, and isn't even part of what I discussed, there is specific standards relating to goodwill. Intangibles like IP/R&D not so much.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 07:50

Good Citizen: Aug 12, 2008; trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump

I mean I guess it�s harder than like cash or fixed assets but gaap is pretty clear and it�s not technical enough for me to waste my time on anymore

# ? Dec 9, 2017 08:04

Rock Puncher: Jul 26, 2014

Good Citizen posted:

I mean I guess it�s harder than like cash or fixed assets but gaap is pretty clear and it�s not technical enough for me to waste my time on anymore

https://www.iasplus.com/en/standards/ias/ias38

IAS38 specifically prohibits the recognition of brands, mastheads, publishing titles, customer lists and expenditure on research, training, advertising and start-up activities. Once recognised revaluations are restricted to those intangibles for which there is an active market.

Thanks for your useful contribution to the thread though.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 08:09

FogHelmut: Dec 18, 2003

The good news is that if the bitcoin does crash, the slow transaction speed will not allow anyone to get out in time to save themselves.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 08:11

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

FogHelmut posted:

The good news is that if the bitcoin does crash, the slow transaction speed will not allow anyone to get out in time to save themselves.

I forget where but I read something along the lines the other day, that various features of bitcoin (including this) are basically obstacles to the price going down.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 08:16

lazorexplosion: Mar 19, 2016

Bitcoin adherents are convinced that the Lightning Network is the magic dust that will solve bitcoin's complete un-usability as a currency. And it makes just plain bitcoin look sane in comparison. The people who jerk themselves off about cryptographic functions and decentralization so much they never have time for questions like 'how will this actually work when people want to take it to a shop' bring you bitcoin 2.0 and even most of the people who think bitcoin is practical are going to find this impractical.

# ? Dec 9, 2017 08:26

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# ? May 23, 2024 22:22

Good Citizen: Aug 12, 2008; trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump trump

Rock Puncher posted:

https://www.iasplus.com/en/standards/ias/ias38

IAS38 specifically prohibits the recognition of brands, mastheads, publishing titles, customer lists and expenditure on research, training, advertising and start-up activities. Once recognised revaluations are restricted to those intangibles for which there is an active market.

Thanks for your useful contribution to the thread though.

What are you even arguing about and what does capitalizing intangibles even have to do with bitcoins. Guy was talking about market cap and you�re suddenly quoting international accounting standards for this poo poo when bitcoins would probably be a level 1 financial instrument, albeit an incredibly stupid one. Also intangibles still aren�t hard so sorry they�re giving you a problem I guess?

# ? Dec 9, 2017 08:28

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