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I think the point is that the reader doesn't quite know what Bayaz is capable of until a lot farther into the series. Then you think back at a bunch of little things that make you wonder if he had greased those wheels. It's probably open ended on purpose.
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Jun 28, 2017 13:33
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Neurosis posted:well, if someone's ongoing actions cause an incredible amount of suffering, of which they really ought to be aware, and what they're trying to do isn't in fact worse than what their opponent is (and as far as i can tell bayaz is happy just being a really powerful puppet-master), i don't think it can be said that person can be said to be too morally grey. i also didn't get the 'capitalism is evil' message someone above mentioned so maybe my readings are very divergent. I don't think I suggested anyone was morally grey, but if Bayaz' sins are the catalyst for all of Khalul's actions isn't he the worse of the two? As for 'capitalism is evil', coin is the power Bayaz uses to wield influence over his part of the world. Khalul uses a different management style in religion.
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Jun 29, 2017 02:34
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Suxpool posted:Yeah and Malacus supposedly brained the third one with their cooking pot. Yeah he smashed the bandits head to paste with the cooking pot. It's meant to be a subtle foreshadowing that Malacus isn't quite right, since he was always a huge pussy before. Same with starting to know his stuff, and back-sassing Bayaz. I kinda hope we see Tolemei again, that Bayaz/Tolemei/Ferro/Yulwei fight scene kicked rear end.
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Jun 29, 2017 02:42
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Suxpool posted:I don't think I suggested anyone was morally grey, but if Bayaz' sins are the catalyst for all of Khalul's actions isn't he the worse of the two? As for 'capitalism is evil', coin is the power Bayaz uses to wield influence over his part of the world. Khalul uses a different management style in religion. causal responsibility, in and of itself, does not necessitate moral responsibility, though bayaz is clearly not short on that. khalul has agency, he is not (as far as we know) locked into having an army of cannibals to fight bayaz. i am not saying that bayaz is the better of the two, or anything near, just that the assumption that i've seen voiced a few times in this thread that bayaz must be the greater monster and actually it will turn out khalul is sympathetic is really lacking in evidence. we have proof bayaz is a colossal prick, but that doesn't mean khalul isn't as huge a oval office. also, capitalism had better has better externalities than religion, and i'd say the choice of method of control has some moral implications for its wielder. i think chattel slavery is one of the worst things anyone can engage in, so i am highly suspicious of khalul, who not only probably engages in it but is the power behind a system that has it as its institution. Neurosis fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Jun 29, 2017 |
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Jun 29, 2017 09:12
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you some kind of philosophy major? actually i think it's pretty well stated that Khalul needs an army of cannibals and the resources of nations to take down Bayaz. we saw what short work Yulwei could make of eaters on his own. Bayaz is first among Juvens' apprentices, has cultivated at least two of his own eaters that are seemingly every bit as old and powerful as Khalul's best if not moreso, and he's exercised control over at least one nation for 600+ years. your personal views on moral relativity about capitalism and chattel slavery aside, in the world Abercrombie has built i think it's entirely possible if not likely that an intimate representation of Khalul would portray him as a dude obsessed only with taking down Bayaz at any cost. i imagine Khalul as a guy who believes the end justifies the means. Joe has proven beyond doubt that he can make even the most wretched character seem likable. maybe even sympathetic.
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Jun 29, 2017 23:29
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I'm sure Bayaz sounds sympathetic in his own head too, but Khalul is the one presiding over the empire whose pillars are slavery, fundamentalism and ritual cannibalism. They are at best equally bad
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Jun 30, 2017 00:24
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:I'm sure Bayaz sounds sympathetic in his own head too, but Khalul is the one presiding over the empire whose pillars are slavery, fundamentalism and ritual cannibalism. doubt it
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Jun 30, 2017 02:27
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Like, Bayaz's empire is based on gently caress you banker capitalism, but he also goes in for the whole cannibalism trip, so I kinda feel like he's the badder guy.
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Jun 30, 2017 02:42
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It doesn't seem to make much sense to draw any kind of conclusions about who the worse wizard is since we've only directly seen Bayaz. It seems like the default position is to assume that anyone standing against him, when he is clearly so evil, must be the better man/wizard/cannibal/whatever, but that's just the kind of assumption Abercrombie likes to turn on its head. We've seen nothing of Khalul and a very limited amount of his servants and empire, but what we have seen is just as evil as the people Bayaz has and the sort of empire he's set up, albeit in different ways. Just because Khalul's original stated goal was to get revenge on Bayaz doesn't excuse what he's doing. Gaze not into the abyss and all that.
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Jun 30, 2017 02:48
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Ferro's first-hand experience of life as a prisoner of Khalul (or rather Khalul's pet Emperor) pretty much eliminates any possibility that he's a sympathetic good guy in disguise. This isn't good versus evil, it's grimdark fantasy realpolitik, on both sides.
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Jun 30, 2017 13:11
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Despite its flaws I would probably prefer living in an early capitalist society than a slave driven theocracy. Bayaz is a more subtle and modern form of repression and control than Khalul's more traditional methods. Sham trials and inquisition work gangs instead of slaves, behind the scenes agents instead of displaying your vampire enforcers as an open threat on society to fall in line. It is kind of funny to read the book again though and wonder what the hell Bayaz was doing before book one.
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Jun 30, 2017 15:01
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Helping bethod unify the north, I guess?
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Jun 30, 2017 15:13
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Helping bethod unify the north, I guess? That and planning the Seed expedition.
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Jun 30, 2017 16:01
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Subvisual Haze posted:Despite its flaws I would probably prefer living in an early capitalist society than a slave driven theocracy. I think at one point he laments that he spent 25-30 years holed up in his northern library researching the Seed and not enough time paying attention to the outside world. He also spent a bit of time with Bethod trying to unite the North.
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Jul 5, 2017 11:47
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Abercrombie posted a page from his new trilogy on twitter, spoilers I guess: https://twitter.com/LordGrimdark/status/908977280805933056 Nothing really surprising; bayaz using cannons against the ghurkish in the never ending war.
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Sep 16, 2017 15:21
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:I'm sure Bayaz sounds sympathetic in his own head too, but Khalul is the one presiding over the empire whose pillars are slavery, fundamentalism and ritual cannibalism. It's society. They work for each other, Morty.
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Sep 17, 2017 15:04
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Normal Adult Human posted:It's society. They work for each other, Morty. Say one thing about you, say you're gonna get laid a lot in college.
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Sep 18, 2017 00:42
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I'm re-listening to all the First Law / standalone books on Audible, I read them all and listened to them all once. The first time through they had Steve Pacey as the narrator of the first three books, then some other guy (who I did not like at all) for BSC and The Heroes, then Steve again for Red Country. I'm back to BSC and so happy that Steve Pacey is reading it this time, he must be the best narrator ever of all time. Man, I wish these would get made into a HBO series or something just for the "Cardotti's house of leisure" scene. "Apologize to my loving dice!!!" I think it might be my favorite bit of the whole series. I want Quinten Tarantino to direct it in a Baby Driver style. My favorite scene of any fantasy novel, maybe second to the "Red Wedding". It's so goofy that it loops back around to being amazing.
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Oct 31, 2017 21:40
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spandexcajun posted:I'm re-listening to all the First Law / standalone books on Audible, I read them all and listened to them all once. The first time through they had Steve Pacey as the narrator of the first three books, then some other guy (who I did not like at all) for BSC and The Heroes, then Steve again for Red Country. I'm back to BSC and so happy that Steve Pacey is reading it this time, he must be the best narrator ever of all time. Yeah that whole scene is farcical in the best of ways.
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Oct 31, 2017 23:28
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I'm almost done with the re-listen, only Red Country and Sharp Ends left. The Heroes is amazing, Craw is one of my favorite Abercrombie characters, Calder is one of Joe's most relatable characters. Anyone listened to other books narrated by Steven Pacey? He has done a lot of work, any recommendations?
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Nov 27, 2017 05:37
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Never saw this thread while I was reading the series, but I finished it last year some time. loving loved it. Thought The Heroes sucked though. I don't get much time to read (kids and all), but I was totally into this series. Late to jump on the bandwagon, but I just started listening to audio books to get through more books. It's a shame I'm listening to the Wheel of Time series, or else I'd totally queue this one up again.
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Dec 6, 2017 21:54
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Looks like we might get something in 2019: https://www.joeabercrombie.com/2017/11/27/progress-report-november-17/ Unlike....other fantasy authors, I'm inclined to believe him.
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Dec 6, 2017 22:03
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:Never saw this thread while I was reading the series, but I finished it last year some time. loving loved it. Thought The Heroes sucked though. I don't get much time to read (kids and all), but I was totally into this series. You might be the only one itt that thought Heroes sucked. Beastie fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Dec 6, 2017 |
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Dec 6, 2017 22:05
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Beastie posted:You might be the only one itt that though Heroes sucked. Yeah, I'd like to know what you didn't like about it.
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Dec 6, 2017 22:08
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Ok, so "sucked" was a bit of hyperbole. Let me re-phrase it and say that I liked it least out of the 6 books. I just didn't find it as engaging or exciting. Most of the original trilogy traveled around the world, and The Heroes was stuck in 1 spot the whole time. I just wasn't into it as much. Now Dark Tower book 1. That SUCKED.
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Dec 7, 2017 01:08
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I liked that it was focused on one battle like that. There was very little downtime and seeing the same events through many different lenses gave them a rich texture. Do you like war stories? That's what the book is (same as Red Country is a western), so your affinity for that genre may have played a role.
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Dec 7, 2017 01:35
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:Now Dark Tower book 1. That SUCKED. Yuuup.
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Dec 7, 2017 02:15
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:Ok, so "sucked" was a bit of hyperbole. Let me re-phrase it and say that I liked it least out of the 6 books. I just didn't find it as engaging or exciting. Most of the original trilogy traveled around the world, and The Heroes was stuck in 1 spot the whole time. I just wasn't into it as much.  ok
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Dec 7, 2017 15:38
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Stephen King is a bad writer.
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Dec 10, 2017 18:31
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I’m on DT book 4 right now. 1 was dogshit, 2 & 3 were great, and 4 is.... ok to decent, being halfway through. These are the first Stephen King books I’ve read. He’s very bipolar in his writing style after reading 3.5 books.
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Dec 10, 2017 21:29
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It baffles me that people didn’t like The Gunslinger.
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Dec 11, 2017 01:46
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Neurosis posted:I liked that it was focused on one battle like that. There was very little downtime and seeing the same events through many different lenses gave them a rich texture. Do you like war stories? That's what the book is (same as Red Country is a western), so your affinity for that genre may have played a role. Yeah the depth was in the variety of characters and perspectives. Instead of zooming out and seeing mostly one side's version of world-scale events, you saw every side's view of a single conflict and the ways that reflected events in the large. You got to see all the factions-within-factions, like dow vs calder vs craw's way of seeing things. You see different attitudes between the union officers and enlisted men (Gorst vs Tunny), along with green northman and named men(Beck vs Craw). I liked it a lot.
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Dec 11, 2017 03:57
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Stephen King is a bad writer. I can understand this opinion but don't agree with it. He's written some dross for sure, but his good stuff still comes up to a very respectable overall body of work.
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Dec 11, 2017 22:17
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:I’m on DT book 4 right now. 1 was dogshit, 2 & 3 were great, and 4 is.... ok to decent, being halfway through. Stop after 4 and make up your own ending. Whatever you want, it will be an improvement.
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Dec 12, 2017 08:33
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Oh, come now, the ending we got was perfectly representative of King's degeneration as a writer.
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Dec 12, 2017 08:41
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Darktower Chat: I only read the first two books; is the movie any good? I liked the setting and general story set-up, and I know the movie takes some liberties. Should I Redbox this or is it a giant turd?
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Dec 12, 2017 17:36
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Beastie posted:Darktower Chat: Please don't insult turds like that.
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Dec 12, 2017 19:22
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Beastie posted:Darktower Chat: Movie was terrible. Being in book 4, I had no idea if they were showing stuff that I hadn't gotten to yet, or they just made poo poo up as they went along.
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Dec 12, 2017 20:13
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Thanks you saved me $5. I will spend it on cheap wine at Trader Joe's.
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Dec 12, 2017 20:14
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I watched the movie in the theaters the day it released. I had a free ticket and I still felt ripped off. edit: The kid was an alright actor, and I usually love Idris Elba but even he couldn't do anything with the material they gave him. Not to mention they made Roland a big floppy puppy dog compared to the books. McConaughey (sp?) was alright too. Not a good movie though. Solice Kirsk fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Dec 12, 2017 |
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Dec 12, 2017 23:46
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