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Taffer posted:I've heard some work is happening on using them in clothing production too, an industry very ripe for automation since it still rests on mostly manual labor, which is unfortunately also has rampant exploitation. Clothing is a really interesting area right now, auto/power looms have been around for ages but recently with computer vision and advances in stepper motors (I’d argue due to he rise in 3D printers and hobby CBC machines) we’re starting to see custom designs being rapidly prototyped and maybe even on demand manufacturing on the horizon. We may not be that far from a future where you can just print out your clothes for the day.
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Dec 11, 2017 02:08
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ElCondemn posted:Clothing is a really interesting area right now, auto/power looms have been around for ages Computer punch cards originated as loom controls. Being used in computers postdated automated looms.
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Dec 11, 2017 02:18
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I think it's hype to say people are okay with others dying. I really dislike how autonomous driving has been cast as the only possible savior for those who die on the road. I'm just not sure where we got the idea that the problem was so unsolvable that we had to turn to computers to "save" us. I know you're probably going to retort that humans are awful, hopeless drivers and will never get better. I certainly see my share of awful driving on the road every time I go somewhere. But I'm not convinced that there aren't other things we could try before we take this leap. I'm sure there are plenty of other things we could do to reduce traffic fatalities, but the important question is how they would realistically compare to removing human error from the equation altogether. Plus it generally takes years to produce real change in society on that scale (though after self-driving cars first become available, it'll also take quite a while after that to render steering wheels obsolete). And it's not as though the development of self-driving technology is in any way mutually exclusive with whatever alternative solutions you're thinking of. Though actually, there's another potential benefit to autonomous driving - we'd be free to crack down hard on crappy drivers without having to worry about how they'd get to work. ElCondemn posted:The latest I've read is that someone is trying to turn the tech into a home chef. Is this what you're talking about? http://www.moley.com/ According to their Twitter page, they're planning to launch next year - kind of ambitious considering the system requires two arms with five-fingered hands, plus a highly advanced vision system which could identify and locate all sorts of produce.
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Dec 11, 2017 02:25
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Do you know what contrast means?
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Dec 11, 2017 02:32
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The contrast is that the people that have some sincere belief that large businesses and billionaires are all in the next 20-30 years going to go galt and move to elysium leaving us to die in a holocaust and then use their total ownership of everything and government capture to prevent the earthbound villagers from just opening their own stores and stuff. And those same people apparently thinking the government needs more power to shut down companies that are rivaling the big boys. The non bolded stuff is what I'm afraid of happening and I've yet to see any meaningful argument to the contrary besides a lot of shrugging and saying everything will sort itself out eventually. The bolded part I don't know anything about and doesn't really make sense to me.
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Dec 11, 2017 02:36
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Cockmaster posted:plus a highly advanced vision system which could identify and locate all sorts of produce. It doesn't have any vision system. The arms are in a sealed pod with it's own appliances. You set up ingredients on trays that tell you exactly where to lay things and there is only a little size variance allowable. Then it replays exact actions and makes the thing. It's basically a magic trick. Pretty much exactly like 1800s clockwork novelties. But if you put the input in right it'll output the dish and apparently does a pretty good job. It seems like having arms that can make all the motions needed for cooking is a pretty big deal though, and once you have that you get bought out by google or amazon or something that would do a better job with making something more robust that using the arms like a player piano.
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Dec 11, 2017 02:37
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Tasmantor posted:Do you know what contrast means? Contrast is that if you actually believed that a global holocaust is coming and aren't just pretending you do as a way to whine about the kids today with their darn iphones it seems to be strange to wish for the government to crack down better on stuff like illegal taxis or illegal hotels since presumably you and your children are going to soon live their entire life only riding in illegal taxis and staying in illegal hotels once the rich finish their doomsday device and outlaw nonrobotic employment or whatever and you have no money to take the real taxi.
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Dec 11, 2017 02:52
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Contrast is that if you actually believed that a global holocaust is coming and aren't just pretending you do as a way to whine about the kids today with their darn iphones it seems to be strange to wish for the government to crack down better on stuff like illegal taxis or illegal hotels since presumably you and your children are going to soon live their entire life only riding in illegal taxis and staying in illegal hotels once the rich finish their doomsday device and outlaw nonrobotic employment or whatever and you have no money to take the real taxi. Do you really think millions won't die due to climate change?
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Dec 11, 2017 03:16
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Trabisnikof posted:Do you really think millions won't die due to climate change? I am lost on what the supposed time line of this robot apocalypse is. People are claiming times as low as 30 years before a majority of the human race is made redundant and employment is ended forever. 30 years is far before climate change is supposed to be anything but marginally worse than it is now and many decades before it's supposed to be truly apocalyptic.
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Dec 11, 2017 03:29
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Society and technology are not independent. What kind of technological level a society has heavily influences how a society is organized. For example, preindustrial technology heavily discourages democratically organized societies. A fair point. I too have been troubled by the implications of the decline of organized labour and what that will mean for our society. However from our narrow human perspectives we cannot possibly grasp the ultimate consequence of these innovations yet. Probably not every state will end up facing the same consequences. Many people in 1910 may have grasped their societies were on the cusp of revolution. Yet they had no way of knowing which governments would fall to revolution, which would turn to fascism, and which would adapt and survive. Similarly it would have been impossible to guess in 1940 that of all the Latin American states it would be Cuba to adopt a socialist government. A weatherman can tell you if a hurricane is on the way a week in advance, but they cannot predict exactly where it is going to hit, nor exactly how strong. And whether the hurricane hits Miami dead-on or wastes its energy in a neighboring swamp makes a lot of difference! It's tangential to my main point but I can't help but point out that I think you aren't giving pre-modern people enough credit. Often find leverage somewhere, and keenly exploit it. Typically it differs from our modern expectations, but that makes it no less significant to them. For example off the top of my head I can think of caravan porters in Tanzania organizing during the Arab slave trade and early European colonial period. Also the ideology of freedom underlying Yemeni tribal society, where the men pick their Sheikhs and have little patience for anyone arrogant enough to give orders to their own kin. Lastly some historians have theorized the institution of monogamy in western society is probably a result of popular opposition to aristocratic polygyny within the ancient democracies and Republics of Greece and Italy. Certainly it is not found in the torah and only through tortured logic can be found implicated in the New Testament.
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Dec 11, 2017 03:44
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ElCondemn posted:We may not be that far from a future where you can just print out your clothes for the day. I'm sure right around that time this tech will be wrapped in EA funbux that I'll have to trade for lootboxes where I end up with 2 non-matching socks, men's briefs, a skort that doesn't fit, and a Miami Heat jersey. They'll be a great thread on SA (which will enter a new renaissance) right before we all choke to death on our own CO2.
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Dec 11, 2017 04:28
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Squalid posted:It's tangential to my main point but I can't help but point out that I think you aren't giving pre-modern people enough credit. Often find leverage somewhere, and keenly exploit it. Typically it differs from our modern expectations, but that makes it no less significant to them. For example off the top of my head I can think of caravan porters in Tanzania organizing during the Arab slave trade and early European colonial period. Also the ideology of freedom underlying Yemeni tribal society, where the men pick their Sheikhs and have little patience for anyone arrogant enough to give orders to their own kin. Lastly some historians have theorized the institution of monogamy in western society is probably a result of popular opposition to aristocratic polygyny within the ancient democracies and Republics of Greece and Italy. Certainly it is not found in the torah and only through tortured logic can be found implicated in the New Testament. I think it's unfortunate that it's hard to talk about any historical situation because it always gives people an opening to just jump to "heh, you wanna go back to living like the fourteen hundreds? heh, good luck with that" or whatever. Same if you talk about the real life examples of parallel economies in countries where people are cut off from the broader community. Like the slums in mumbai have a shockingly organized economy in the slums, with established slum businesses and a very low crime rate. But of course it's a monstrous slum, so you can just dismiss it as "heh, who wants to live in a slum? loser" instead of talking about it as an example of a real world example of people making their own economy when the real economy doesn't reach them.
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Dec 11, 2017 04:28
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think it's unfortunate that it's hard to talk about any historical situation because it always gives people an opening to just jump to "heh, you wanna go back to living like the fourteen hundreds? heh, good luck with that" or whatever. Same if you talk about the real life examples of parallel economies in countries where people are cut off from the broader community. Like the slums in mumbai have a shockingly organized economy in the slums, with established slum businesses and a very low crime rate. But of course it's a monstrous slum, so you can just dismiss it as "heh, who wants to live in a slum? loser" instead of talking about it as an example of a real world example of people making their own economy when the real economy doesn't reach them. what i have no idea where you are going with this. It definitely doesn't seem like a very convincing counter to the claim that automation and the decreasing leverage of labor is going to result in greater poverty and/or inequality
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Dec 11, 2017 04:44
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We'll all live in happy self-determining communities made of rich people's garbage, it's obvious.
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Dec 11, 2017 04:56
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Slavvy posted:We'll all live in happy self-determining communities made of rich people's garbage, it's obvious. Especially now that China isn't interested in taking it anymore.
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Dec 11, 2017 05:05
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Squalid posted:i have no idea where you are going with this. It definitely doesn't seem like a very convincing counter to the claim that automation and the decreasing leverage of labor is going to result in greater poverty and/or inequality Like there are places right now where large numbers of people are excluded from the "real" economy. And in these places interesting parallel micro economies formed. This is easy to dismiss because they are poor and gross or whatever, but it is an example of what happens when you cut people out of the economy. And it's not clear that it's inherently necessary that it only can happen at that exact poverty level. If you cut nearly the entire world's population out of the economy what does their parallel economy look like?
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Dec 11, 2017 05:15
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It looks like 10 billion people trying to live the way they did when Earth had 10% as many. Work it out.
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Dec 11, 2017 05:26
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Slavvy posted:It looks like 10 billion people trying to live the way they did when Earth had 10% as many. Work it out. Overpopulation and lack of resources are like reason 4 and 5 we are going to all be dead in 40 years. At which point what job we get paychecks from won't really matter.
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Dec 11, 2017 05:38
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Right I see. We can't solve world hunger/overpopulation because money and we'll all die, but it's fine to accelerate that outcome by letting technology distribution be decided by money. Things just kind of work out because I dunno life always finds a way until it od's on itself and we all die?
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Dec 11, 2017 05:57
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like there are places right now where large numbers of people are excluded from the "real" economy. And in these places interesting parallel micro economies formed. This is easy to dismiss because they are poor and gross or whatever, but it is an example of what happens when you cut people out of the economy. And it's not clear that it's inherently necessary that it only can happen at that exact poverty level. If you cut nearly the entire world's population out of the economy what does their parallel economy look like? This is a very fascinating topic, and there are even books looking into the phenomenon in the US. "Off the Books: The Underground Economy of the Working Poor" and "Gang Leader for a Day" by Sudhir Venkatesh come to mind. I think it'd need it's own thread though.
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Dec 11, 2017 06:35
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like there are places right now where large numbers of people are excluded from the "real" economy. And in these places interesting parallel micro economies formed. This is easy to dismiss because they are poor and gross or whatever, but it is an example of what happens when you cut people out of the economy. And it's not clear that it's inherently necessary that it only can happen at that exact poverty level. If you cut nearly the entire world's population out of the economy what does their parallel economy look like? I guess it kind of makes sense as an abstract theoretical reason we won't all necessarily die, though you aren't exactly presenting a comforting argument for why we shouldn't be concerned with present trends in the economy. I don't think you're engaging very well here with sane people's concerns about the economy. Admittedly there are some insane fears, but this kind of weird speculation isn't going to make them come to their senses.
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Dec 11, 2017 07:06
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I'm OOCC contrast people feeling powerless and lost in a rapidly changing world with people feeling lost and powerless in a rapidly changing world. Now that I have done the light of my MASSIVE INTELLECT on that problem I'll just poo poo these goals and move on to poo poo up another thread. Like seriously you are trying so desperately to be smarter than everyone else that you don't even have an idea other than don't worry it'll sorry itself out. If anyone asks you for an example of what the world might be you don't know you just know it'll be fine. Like lol don't worry there's slums full of people working. Slums famous for being full of healthy happy people, enjoying all the progress humanity has made so far!
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Dec 11, 2017 08:40
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Cockmaster posted:I'm sure there are plenty of other things we could do to reduce traffic fatalities, but the important question is how they would realistically compare to removing human error from the equation altogether. Plus it generally takes years to produce real change in society on that scale
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Dec 11, 2017 13:25
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Squalid posted:I guess it kind of makes sense as an abstract theoretical reason we won't all necessarily die, though you aren't exactly presenting a comforting argument for why we shouldn't be concerned with present trends in the economy. I don't think you're engaging very well here with sane people's concerns about the economy. Admittedly there are some insane fears, but this kind of weird speculation isn't going to make them come to their senses. The point isn't that anyone should be excited to go live in indian slums, they are clearly awful places to live. The point is that there are alternate formulations of an economy on the earth right now and it might be good to learn things from them other than 'ugg, the people here are stinky and poor' same as you can look to history and see this or that group of farmers that lived a unique life style and not kneejerk right to "but I don't want to be an 8th century farmer! I can't learn anything from this!"
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Dec 11, 2017 13:40
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That's outside the scope of the thread though, isn't it? If residents of a neighborhood are mostly shut out of economic opportunities in the larger economy they'd need to find other avenues for their economic well-being. Avenues which would be much more dependent on interpersonal relationships than the level of technological development.
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Dec 11, 2017 14:02
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You realise you're more or less describing drug dealers and fences, right? For people being shut out of legal means of supporting themselves and pursuing what society hammers into them is the only way to justify their existence, profitable illegal enterprises are the logical choice. At the point where we're earnestly discussing how to make a living as sustenance farmers and artisans while living in the shadows of the wealthy's self-sufficient machine citadels, accepting this as the inevitable future as 99% of people being superfluous to 'the economy'.
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Dec 11, 2017 14:24
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Squalid posted:A fair point. I too have been troubled by the implications of the decline of organized labour and what that will mean for our society. I basically agree with you and I try to stay optimistic. And anyway, what other choice is there? It's not like Luddism has anything interesting to offer and we all know self-pity doesn't do anything. Cockmaster posted:I'm sure there are plenty of other things we could do to reduce traffic fatalities, but the important question is how they would realistically compare to removing human error from the equation altogether. Plus it generally takes years to produce real change in society on that scale (though after self-driving cars first become available, it'll also take quite a while after that to render steering wheels obsolete). And it's not as though the development of self-driving technology is in any way mutually exclusive with whatever alternative solutions you're thinking of. One nice thing about autonomous driving is how gradually you can introduce it to society without disturbing existing patterns. Like, someone brought up drayage already. German car companies are now focused on making autonomous taxis. The advantage of taxis is that they only need to move in a known, semi-controlled environment (a single city), only need to move at relatively low speeds, don't need to park very often, can be recalled into maintenance at will, an operator can constantly observe it and collect data, etc. One of the biggest advantages is probably that people have less expectations of everything working flawlessly with a taxi car. If there is some kind of malfunction, they can just hop out, get their money for the ride back and get on the nearest bus or other taxi. No big drama. Maintenance can then quickly pick up the malfunctioning car. Also, it will get people to start getting used to fully autonomous cars driving around and normalize the whole concept.
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Dec 11, 2017 14:42
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RandomPauI posted:That's outside the scope of the thread though, isn't it? If residents of a neighborhood are mostly shut out of economic opportunities in the larger economy they'd need to find other avenues for their economic well-being. Avenues which would be much more dependent on interpersonal relationships than the level of technological development. Sure, it'd be a huge topic just to talk about like, the economies of like an indian slum vs kowloon walled city vs a Favela vs a US street gang. And it'd probably always be hard to talk about them not in terms of "all these places suck and there is nothing to learn from them". What does the economy look like at the ultra extreme hell on earth, what parts of society do and do not function in those conditions. quote:At the point where we're earnestly discussing how to make a living as sustenance farmers and artisans while living in the shadows of the wealthy's self-sufficient machine citadels, accepting this as the inevitable future as 99% of people being superfluous to 'the economy'. The world is like that now, you and me just live in the machine citadel instead of 99% in the shadows.
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Dec 11, 2017 14:57
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To put it another way: places with near zero formal employment exist right now. They are stinky hell nightmares but aren't just chaos or anarchy. So someone could look at them as a starting point for asking what they would need to go from horror nightmare world to an okay place to live or even to a good place to live. And then work out what things absolutely only could be provided by the government, what things can be provided by them for themselves if the right social systems were available and what could have technological solutions. Or ask what employment point they switch from being impossible to make nice to totally possible to make nice. Like if everyone lived in a slum but had good food and water and medical care and freedom and entertainment. It's not really a slum anymore. And it's at least possible to ask what the absolute limit break points are for what that would be possible under. Or what technologies could make it possible or exist now but aren't implemented or what social systems or social programs could help it. Or what level of employment higher than zero and less than full time could be engineered to allow it.
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Dec 11, 2017 16:10
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Anarchy, or rather anarchism, is an interesting framework to look through for potential solutions. Kropotkin (for it was he  ) was pro-technology overall, believing that it would relieve our burdens and enable effective communes at a time when people were smashing weaving frames for stealing jobs.His problem was with who owned the technology (largely steam engines and railroads in his studies). Bread, The Conquest of posted:Every machine has had the same history — a long record of sleepless nights and of poverty, of disillusions and of joys, of partial improvements discovered by several generations of nameless workers, who have added to the original invention these little nothings, without which the most fertile idea would remain fruitless. More than that: every new invention is a synthesis, the resultant of innumerable inventions which have preceded it in the vast field of mechanics and industry. Have his views gotten closer to or further away from reality after the information revolution? On one hand the open source movement and the open internet have democratized information to a degree that could never before exist. If I want to 'steal' someone's patent or use an academic document to further my own development of something for the local community, there's little that can stop me. On the other, the rentier classes, the Dukes and Bishops of his works, seem ever more remote, and their means of profit and control ever more subtle.
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Dec 11, 2017 16:52
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Guavanaut posted:Anarchy, or rather anarchism, is an interesting framework to look through for potential solutions. Yeah, it was wrong of me to use anarchy as a synonym for lawless chaos. The most hopeful optimistic future possible is the one technology can provide all basic needs so trivially that even a small community can sustain its members and the role of power structures shifts away from what it is now to only being for large scale organization for higher level needs.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:02
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I got what you mean, it just threw me on an interesting tangent. There's the whole "destroy the devil technology" thing to the anarchist stereotype, which does exist on the fringes, but a big part of Kropotkin's schtick was "guys imagine how cool it will be when every commune has a steam engine and the steam engine belongs to the commune and not the local Bishop-Prince and everyone gives away their patents as a gift to the world and there's progress by all for all." Technology as the breaker of hierarchy rather than the new improved whip 2.0. Some of what he wrote about definitely did come true, open source software that anyone can use and fork and improve is textbook anarchist industrial activity, and the communities around them tested and in some cases broke his theories of mutual aid, wikis demonstrated the utility of all information available to all people, but showed the pitfalls too, and the necessity of some kind of soft hierarchy, there's open source process automation platforms that work as long as the community has members, rather than as long as the manufacturer wants to keep updating it, etc. But other parts went in completely the opposite direction to anything he predicted or desired, the creation of the worldwide mega rich in ways impossible before mass communications, consumerism arising as the response to overproduction, and more recently the creation of information hierarchies that enable the already powerful to sculpt and mold the information environment around people in an automated manner in possibly worrying ways. The people who push against that aren't going to be excommunicated like the literate peasant, there's no need anymore, but they might not even realize that they're in a filter bubble. I don't know if that's why we seem to be entering into a period of hyperpolarization (not unique to the present, or doomed to get worse, they come and go) and what technological and social solutions there are to that.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:42
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Guavanaut posted:I got what you mean, it just threw me on an interesting tangent. Yeah, I feel like I legitimately made a mistake in using the word anarchy like I did. Like a ton of social systems that exist right now exist because they have to exist because such large scale organization is required for things. Like what if we never invent magic star trek replicators but we get to the point 5 factories can produce the same range of products 500 factories could. It puts 500 factories worth of people out of business but it also makes the hill much smaller to climb if some organization smaller than a nation state wants to have it's own full range of manufacturing. And like if your doctor is super future watson I am sure there will be an attempt that the rich horde it and don't let you touch it, but it wouldn't absolutely have to be that way. They don't get any less health if you are allowed to also get health. We don't run out of health.
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Dec 11, 2017 19:39
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https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gydydm/gal-gadot-fake-ai-porn What are we going to do when literally no video/audio recording is going to be acceptable as reliable evidence of something that actually happened? Other than furiously beating it to [insert your fantasy crush] doing [insert your unmentionable gross fetishes] infinitely, forever.
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Dec 12, 2017 13:40
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Are autodocs like in fallout a thing yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s30FPobi9iA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fnv_3qn3Yc
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Dec 13, 2017 02:35
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https://imgur.com/gallery/gkLFz Algorithms have granted us a tantalizing look at Harry Potter and the Portrait of what Looked Like a Large Pile of Ash. Jokes aside, it seems like it was at least semi human directed- they describe training predictive keyboards on the Harry Potter books, so what I presume occurred was the human would pick a letter and hit enter if the word had promise or another letter if they wanted to force it in a different direction. The biggest clue to this effect is the quote "The password was 'BEEF WOMEN'," two words that I would lay money never occurred next to each other in the Harry Potter books, let alone in all caps. It's a bit irritating that they make it sound like it was completely auto generated- as random as it seems it is most definitely not typical of a markov style walk of this length. It is way too cogent for that.
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Dec 13, 2017 13:43
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CrazySalamander posted:https://imgur.com/gallery/gkLFz The impression I got was that they took something like Google Android keyboard and trained it with Harry Potter data set. Those offer you a selection of words to use next above the keyboard itself. Then they (mostly?) tapped at these (possibly with more options than the google keyboard usually fits into the single row offered on display). I could totally see this becoming a "productivity" increasing tool for Amazon "ironic erotica" schlock like Chuck Tingle puts out. Also for tabloids. I hope the AIs won't be too distraught when they realize that their specialisation in assisting Creative Witing is a job nobody wanted to pay for to begin with. Teal fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Dec 13, 2017 |
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Dec 13, 2017 14:16
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Botnik is pretty clearly a joke. Like they definitely base their stuff on iphone keyboard stuff but they also clearly are a comedy site that is making what is funny, not running a science experiment on AI writing or anything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0uLbqEbEd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHhwxpFOtl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygBCeL9hGzI
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Dec 13, 2017 14:22
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Will Robots Take Our Children’s Jobs? https://nyti.ms/2jLUWjm
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Dec 14, 2017 01:41
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CrazySalamander posted:https://imgur.com/gallery/gkLFz I'm changing all my passwords to BEEF WOMEN.
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Dec 14, 2017 05:16
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