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Minion of Freya posted:One of two people will be elected to senate, one is a confirmed pedophile and aspiring slaver. That's it, sum total and end. If the democratic candidate had harassed a trans woman of color at work while drone bombing a child wedding he would still be a man of honor and integrity by comparison. If Hitler invades hell we throw our support behind Satan. Rallying the apathy of your enemy with crocodile tears is a really boring and obvious tactic. Murdering children: so much less bad than raping children that you're the "man of honor" in comparison, and are thus entitled to all of our votes. What the gently caress is wrong with you?
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Dec 11, 2017 14:32
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Inescapable Duck posted:It's had to be restated a zillion times: shaming and raging over individual votes is pointless and worse than useless. The point is that voting has been made as hard as possible for many people and the Democrats have been excellent at giving them no motivation to go through the effort to do so. Your feelings don't matter. You have to figure out how to get these people to vote. Here's the core of it, here and now: Doug Jones represents one closer vote toward locking out ACA repeal, tax  reform and other legislative abominations. We've seen over and over this year that one vote really, really matters. I'm not trying to court Kilroy or Fighter Jet Avatar or Viral Spiral votes in this thread. I court votes by attending dsa meetings and canvassing. Jesus, Bride of Satan have I been canvassing nearly nonstop this year (I live in John Lewis's district, so we've knocked doors for Bernie, for Clinton, for {the progressive cause here during GA06 v1}, for Ossoff in GA06 v2, for Fort, for Bottoms.....its been endless. I have no illusions that I'll flip -- or even need to waste time flipping -- the likes of Kilroy or other near-sockpuppet "Progressivism matters more than progress" poo poo sticks in D&D. I'm really not even sure where they come from or if they're actually active, because I've yet to actually pass a blunt to someone at a dsa who legitimately thought that, out of Ossoff v Handel or Jones v Overseer Kiddytickler that not voting was the best choice. There was plenty of consternation about 3rd party or staying at home in Trump v Clinton, I'll grant you that. I'm here to make absolutely certain they know what kind of monsters they are, the kind of aloof privileged "But, actually" puritans who get their rocks off shouting to a room how cool they are for not putting people first. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Dec 11, 2017 |
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Dec 11, 2017 14:45
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sirtommygunn posted:Murdering children: so much less bad than raping children that you're the "man of honor" in comparison, and are thus entitled to all of our votes. What the gently caress is wrong with you? Maybe his example was hyperbolic. Though Obama has killed plenty of innocents, and I'm furious that the party opposing barefaced "Heil Trump Blood and Soil" doesn't even have a high ground on killing brown people half a world over.
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Dec 11, 2017 14:49
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It sure is hard turning out to vote when you realize the democrat party is a billionaire’s hedge against the Republicans losing.
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Dec 11, 2017 14:56
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Kraftwerk posted:It sure is hard turning out to vote when you realize the democrat party is a billionaire’s hedge against the Republicans losing. That's been basically true of most successful progressive movements in America's history. Like, both Roosevelts were fairly frank about being the capitalist alternative to socialist revolution a la Russia. So, yes, but that's how progressive movements win in America.
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Dec 11, 2017 14:58
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Kraftwerk posted:It sure is hard turning out to vote when you realize the democrat party is a billionaire’s hedge against the Republicans losing. The right picked a VP who would see everyone like me dead or broken into compliance, it really isn't hard from this perspective when that's a semi-common feature of the GOP. Like people pull this "Don't settle for the lesser evil!" poo poo, but they're often enough not the ones who risk having their head beat in by neo-nazis, when america ever starts fielding socialists and similar real leftist choices, yeah no poo poo I'll go for them, until then I'll absolutely pick the more mundanely crappy side, because the alternative until then is that or just let the side actively trying to wipe me out win. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Dec 11, 2017 |
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Dec 11, 2017 15:02
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sirtommygunn posted:Murdering children: so much less bad than raping children that you're the "man of honor" in comparison, and are thus entitled to all of our votes. What the gently caress is wrong with you? You're just mad Obama took "bomb them back to the stone age" off the table as a campaign promise.
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Dec 11, 2017 15:08
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That's been basically true of most successful progressive movements in America's history. Like, both Roosevelts were fairly frank about being the capitalist alternative to socialist revolution a la Russia. That’s just realpolitik. Now that the Soviet Union has been thrown into the dustbin of history we are stuck in a consensus where there is no other alternative unless some populist throws a fresh coat of paint on socialism and tries it again. Except that didn’t happen as socialism is still fresh in our minds so we decided to try authoritarian fascism again instead. America squandered its opportunity to affect real change when they elected Obama with a majority and he and his democrats proceeded to lame duck the entire administration. The democrats are shackled by their wealthy paymasters and yet required to present a credible altnerative to America to maintain the ruse that there’s a functional political system rather than a sock puppet theatre for the rich to dominate the poor. I remember being shouted down by hardcore democrats for even suggesting nothing would change except the skin colour of the president when Obama was elected. History has proven me right and those same people now stay home demoralized because of it. I wish I was wrong but I understand very well that if you could change anything by voting they wouldn’t let you do it. Even if Sanders did become president I promise you by 2018 every seat in Congress will be a blue dog or republican to ensure nothing of his agenda ever succeeds. He’d have been remembered as an ineffectual one term president who broke all his promises and wound up like Jimmy Carter. Then trump wouldve won in 2020. There will never be a credible left wing alternative because of the two party system and because leftists will never be able to muster the fragile support needed to maintain the momentum for their movement the way the idle rich can casually drop millions in cash to have their guys maintain power. The best possible outcome of a left leaning congress would be if they found a way to overturn citizens united, ban PACs and set strict campaign donation limits to level the playing field. But why would you do that when you’re guaranteed a golden parachute if you kowtow to the robber barons? Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Dec 11, 2017 |
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Dec 11, 2017 15:14
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Potato Salad posted:
I'm gayer than Christmas and I vote straight ticket D every two years because the Republicans want to electrocute me, I'm not the reason lovely Dems keep losing, honey. Getting pissy with voters is pointless, if we want more votes, we need to motivate and excite them enough to overcome the structural barriers against their enfranchisement. Not betray them to the corporations and threaten them with the murderous Republicans if they don't suck it up. Either appeal to them or go with the 2016 "gently caress your healthcare we don't want your votes anyway" strategy.
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Dec 11, 2017 15:27
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VitalSigns posted:Getting pissy with voters is pointless, if we want more votes, we need to motivate and excite them enough to overcome the structural barriers against their enfranchisement. Not betray them to the corporations and threaten them with the murderous Republicans if they don't suck it up. Either appeal to them or go with the 2016 "gently caress your healthcare we don't want your votes anyway" strategy. I'm inclined to agree with this post.
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Dec 11, 2017 15:55
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Kraftwerk posted:That’s just realpolitik. Now that the Soviet Union has been thrown into the dustbin of history we are stuck in a consensus where there is no other alternative unless some populist throws a fresh coat of paint on socialism and tries it again. Except that didn’t happen as socialism is still fresh in our minds so we decided to try authoritarian fascism again instead. Obama's administration was a squandered opportunity in many ways but there's only so much utility in looking backward. quote:
We have to continue to assume that left-wing progress is possible in the same sense that we must imagine Sisyphus is happy; the alternative is suicide. It is a lot harder without a scary left-wing radical alternative that we can be the relative moderate, sane alternative to; it's a lot easier to push democratic socialism when nations are falling to nondemocratic socialism. On the other hand, there are plenty of scary-as-poo poo populist totalitarian movements going on right now, they're just all right-wing fascist. I think the best strategy going forward is probably to position left-wing moderate democratic socialism as the "sane alternative" to right wing fascism. Basically, it's either Bernie or Trump, pick one.
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Dec 11, 2017 16:02
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VitalSigns posted:Getting pissy with voters is pointless, if we want more votes, we need to motivate and excite them enough to overcome the structural barriers against their enfranchisement. Politics isn't always exciting. That's the problem. The Presidency generally goes to the most "exciting" candidate, even if he's an outright idiot. And people will *always* be disappointed after their vote, because even the best candidates don't produce utopia. Even presidents who are well-remembered like Lincoln or FDR hosed up *a lot*.
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Dec 11, 2017 16:03
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Unfortunately there's so few people who are even eligible to be part of the political caste. The rules as they stand today require that you have a personal fortune first so you can piss it away, or make promises to billionaires to get access to their fortunes. You have to win the rigged game before you can change the rules. The American political process sucks but there's no excuse to preach apathy when they're still counting our votes.
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Dec 11, 2017 16:09
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Potato Salad posted:What even are you Do you have a limit on the number of corpses you're comfortable with if you can call it a Blue Team win? Is the limit higher when the corpses are foreign?
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Dec 11, 2017 16:14
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Someone who doesn't treat politics as a global scale trolley problem. A binary Senate election is a trolley problem, though. It's Moore. Or Jones.
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Dec 11, 2017 16:24
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Potato Salad posted:A binary Senate election is a trolley problem, though. It's Moore. Or Jones. Also you didn't answer regarding corpses. Do you have a limit on how nakedly murderous a Democrat can be?
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Dec 11, 2017 16:42
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I absolutely refuse to believe that you give an actual gently caress about dead Muslims on the other side of the planet. You just want a stick to beat Obama with because, get this, you're not actually any kind of leftist. If you gave a poo poo about Muslim lives you wouldn't be concern trolling the only major political party (because we only have two) that thinks they deserve citizenship and civil rights. If Obama hadn't kept up the pressure on Al Queda and followed them and their spin off groups into Yemen and Africa you would be be asking "how can we trust Democrats to keep our family safe when they're too scared to fight terrorists." You just come here to preach apathy and bring down morale any time there's democratic momentum. It's pathetic.
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Dec 11, 2017 16:45
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“I wish we didn’t bomb people” is not a pie in the sky leftist position though?
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Dec 11, 2017 16:48
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Someone who doesn't treat politics as a global scale trolley problem. It kinda is though I mean, that's a valid metaphor for pretty much all voting decisions
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Dec 11, 2017 16:51
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Lightning Knight posted:“I wish we didn’t bomb people” is not a pie in the sky leftist position though? Yeah, it is. There's always going to be sectarian or ethnic conflict somewhere on the planet and as the biggest dick in the UN we have a moral obligation to intervene. And it's absolutely feral to imply that more Republican victories will lead to fewer wars when they've salivated over depopulating Iran since the 70s, North Korea since the 50s, and Palestine since the 40s.
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Dec 11, 2017 16:54
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Minion of Freya posted:Yeah, it is. There's always going to be sectarian or ethnic conflict somewhere on the planet and as the biggest dick in the UN we have a moral obligation to intervene. And it's absolutely feral to imply that more Republican victories will lead to fewer wars when they've salivated over depopulating Iran since the 70s, North Korea since the 50s, and Palestine since the 40s.  sir or ma’am I don’t believe you know American foreign policy very well.
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Dec 11, 2017 16:56
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Someone who doesn't treat politics as a global scale trolley problem. Hey so tell me what your plan is to have an overnight progressive revolution because I'd love to hear it. Oh wait that will literally never happen. As much as I hate it, just as much as you do, incrementalism is ALL WE HAVE. I would absolutely love to be able to find some exciting, ideologically pure progressive candidates to gut the Democratic party and make it way more leftist in 2020 but *cups hands around mouth* *inhales deeply* THAT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE AND YOU ARE LETTING PERFECT BE THE ENEMY OF GOOD (or at least somewhat better) FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME Stop it. Just stop. The only way this poo poo has ever worked out realistically is to elect the lesser of 2 evils in our elections and, at the same time, try to fight within the system to make it better. The next Dem candidate needs to be better than the previous one, or we can strengthen the DSA at state and local levels while voting for Democrats in the bigger elections until DSA candidates make enough of a name for themselves to unseat Dems. And we can absolutely do that while making sure that things don't get worse by not voting Republican or 3rd party when an independent has no chance of winning. You CAN'T just burn the whole thing down and start from scratch. I wish we could and I seriously mean it. I want it just as much as you. But we can't. We are on Stop poo poo From Getting Worse mode. We are trying not to let the ACA from getting gutted and we're trying to stop the courts from getting packed. We are on defense. Stop pretending we have any room to gently caress up with extreme overnight ideological shifts in a major political party.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:05
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You've come out strongly against wars, which obviously means that you're actually in favor of a massive increase in wars! If you aren't jerking it to the image of brown children being bombed at every second of the day it must be because you secretly want war all the time forever! I am a smart person who should be taken seriously.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:06
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If you're concern trolling the Democrats the day before an election you're boosting the Republicans, who are at this very second seig heiling and chanting "bliod and soil." Yes, you're a cryto fascist.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:13
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Minion of Freya posted:If you're concern trolling the Democrats the day before an election you're boosting the Republicans, who are at this very second seig heiling and chanting "bliod and soil." If Roy Moore gets elected it will surely be my posting on this dead gay comedy forum that tipped the scales.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:27
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I thought primary chat was banned? Or is it ok if you just delete the words "Hillary" and "Bernie"?
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Dec 11, 2017 17:28
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Minion of Freya posted:Yes, you're a cryto fascist. I'm a cryo-fascist in that I want all fascists iced. I'm a Cato-fascist because I believe we must unite against Hellenization at any cost. I'm a cry-to-fascist, because in actuality their home made shields hurt. OK, that was actually cry-near-fascism.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:32
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I have immense power with the Alabama electorate.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:36
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Minion of Freya posted:Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say you mattered. You're probably pulling this same poo poo across a dozen sites along with a couple thousand other shitbirds. If you aren't you're even more pathetic. You would prefer the pedophile slaver win but you can't say that out loud and be taken seriously so you're trying to attack from the left. 
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Dec 11, 2017 17:40
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poopinmymouth posted:I wish I was privileged enough to pretend that all the dead Iraqis and Afghanis are just the price to pay to smite those mean old republicans and don't count as real people because: don't you live in sweden? It seems like you're privileged enough to be shielded from the immediate consequences of this election outside of international US action. Perhaps that is why you prioritize it over everything else you loving muppet
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Dec 11, 2017 17:41
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Minion of Freya posted:If you're concern trolling the Democrats the day before an election you're boosting the Republicans, who are at this very second seig heiling and chanting "bliod and soil." блядь and soil
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Dec 11, 2017 17:44
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Me, dumbly: I think we should prioritize electing people who are against murdering hundreds of thousands of people overseas You, smartly: Are you trying to let the Republicans win???
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Dec 11, 2017 17:44
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Minion of Freya posted:Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say you mattered. You're probably pulling this same poo poo across a dozen sites along with a couple thousand other shitbirds. If you aren't you're even more pathetic. You would prefer the pedophile slaver win but you can't say that out loud and be taken seriously so you're trying to attack from the left. I mean he could also just be one random guy on the internet. This whole derail is dumb, the reality is that the number of disaffected ideological leftists who won’t vote D is very small. There’s a much larger number of demoralized progressive or progressive-sympathetic voters we can reach with modest social democracy and honesty and if you really think that’s too much leftism I lol at you.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:45
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sirtommygunn posted:Me, dumbly: I think we should prioritize electing people who are against murdering hundreds of thousands of people overseas all of these point would make a lot of sense in a sane parliamentary system, but you are stuck with a first-past-the-post two party republic. you push as hard as you goddamn can during primaries to get the most progressive candidates to the top, and then you hold your nose and vote for the least of all evils.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:47
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botany posted:all of these point would make a lot of sense in a sane parliamentary system, but you are stuck with a first-past-the-post two party republic. you push as hard as you goddamn can during primaries to get the most progressive candidates to the top, and then you hold your nose and vote for the least of all evils. a strategy that has lead to the democratic party's unquestionable dominance over all levels of american government
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Dec 11, 2017 17:48
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One of two people will be elected to senate tomorrow and you morons are going "fellow leftists, voting is pointless because Democrats are useless." We know what side you're on and where you got the play book.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:49
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botany posted:all of these point would make a lot of sense in a sane parliamentary system, but you are stuck with a first-past-the-post two party republic. you push as hard as you goddamn can during primaries to get the most progressive candidates to the top, and then you hold your nose and vote for the least of all evils. I mean if we had a bunch of ideological leftists who didn’t want to do this it would be ok as long as they organize into stuff like the DSA and offer outside left pressure. If you just stay home and aren’t voting or organizing then you’re basically useless though. We have to do SOMETHING, even if that something isn’t engaging with the Democrats.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:49
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botany posted:all of these point would make a lot of sense in a sane parliamentary system, but you are stuck with a first-past-the-post two party republic. you push as hard as you goddamn can during primaries to get the most progressive candidates to the top, and then you hold your nose and vote for the least of all evils. Notice how my post does not say or even imply that we should just not vote for people who don't meet 100% of our check boxes. I'm not advocating for letting Roy Moore in just because whatever his name is isn't particularly inspiring. That's why I used the word prioritize. Minion of Freya posted:One of two people will be elected to senate tomorrow and you morons are going "fellow leftists, voting is pointless because Democrats are useless." We know what side you're on and where you got the play book. Oh whoops you shoved words and thoughts in my mouth again in an attempt to get an own in on a strawman that barely even exists within this thread let alone the general populace. You're raging at imaginary people and alienating people who actually give a gently caress in the process.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:50
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Ze Pollack posted:a strategy that has lead to the democratic party's unquestionable dominance over all levels of american government A strategy that has lead to the Republican party's dominance because people on the left are waiting for perfection. It's actually because the DNC is awful and decided to just not have candidates in, like, 90% of the country.
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Dec 11, 2017 17:50
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Push El Burrito posted:A strategy that has lead to the Republican party's dominance because people on the left are waiting for perfection. I think this greatly overstates the influence ideological left wing voters have, unless you consider anyone with vaguely progressive sympathy as a “leftist.” It also ignores voter suppression. The people staying home are less sour grapes Marxists and more demoralized poor and working people who don’t feel empowered. Edit: Curses, I’ve been had by the joke edit! 
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Dec 11, 2017 17:52
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