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I've asked this before but why would racist suburban trump voters vote for the watered-down republican-lite when they can get the real thing undiluted? And why would a young progressive voter give a poo poo about a diet-republican if they don't support any actually progressive policies?
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Dec 11, 2017 20:05
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Instant Sunrise posted:I've asked this before but why would racist suburban trump voters vote for the watered-down republican-lite when they can get the real thing undiluted? And why would a young progressive voter give a poo poo about a diet-republican if they don't support any actually progressive policies? the theory goes that if the racist suburban trump voter really cared about the deficit, they'd vote democrat as they present a more stable caretaker government political campaigns based around this premise have been, uh less than successful
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Dec 11, 2017 20:10
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Ytlaya posted:I'm not sure this is actually true, at least when this argument is made from the left. I've seen this opinion from centrists, but I don't think I've ever seen the left (on these forums, at least) arguing that we should sacrifice social issues to appeal to Trump voters. That's always just been a straw-man created by anti-leftist liberals (I say "anti-leftist" just because I can't think of any other term to describe the sort of liberal who complains about the left a lot). And interpreting anything a leftist says in the most hilariously over-the-top negatively disingenuous way is sort of their shtick. I'd argue that mass wealth redistribution is one of those things that is just fundamentally difficult to sell to people who've grown up their entire lives only knowing capitalism, and that in the short term it's simpler to focus on other issues from the perspective of marketing. The fundamental notion that society is in some way meritocratic or otherwise that "people deserve a chance to be successful" or whatever runs really deep in our society and it's a hard thing to go against. It also just isn't as motivating as an issue than more obvious things like foreign policy, racist policing, or healthcare. Intellectually I agree with you, but I really couldn't give less of a poo poo in the short term versus more basic issues like "can we stop bombing foreign countries now" or "maybe police should stop murdering so many black people." It doesn't resonate. "Abandon identity politics and push no war but the class war" was a more popular position in the immediate aftermath of the election and in GBS but it seems to have mostly faded away after Virginia, which is cool and good.
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Dec 11, 2017 20:11
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If he wants to get the black vote he should be campaigning more on convicting the Church bombers. I think I've only seen like one flyer about it.
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Dec 11, 2017 20:12
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Ytlaya posted:I think the thing that confuses me is that, while I agree (for the reasons you mentioned) that voting for the Democrat is absolutely the optimal choice, it is bizarre for a person to only aim their blame and attacks at the person not voting. Why isn't that anger also aimed at the politicians who created the conditions that made that person not want to vote (assuming their complaints are about things that are actual problems with the Democratic Party)? For some reason they only aim their ire at the people with the least power in this equation. Like, even from a ~pragmatic~ perspective, it is more reasonable to focus your efforts on getting the politicians to change in a way that will make these people want to vote for them. Because I can guarantee that complaining at non-voters isn't going to accomplish jack poo poo. I think it's probably because an individual voter is someone who can take an action, right now. It's more concrete--"Vote for the Democrat, holy poo poo, do you really want <objectively worse Republican> to win?" Directing the anger at the politicians, the parties, and the system in general is certainly far more justified, but it's also more abstract, and it's harder to figure out where to even start changing it. But if there's someone telling you that, for example, they just can't justify voting for Doug Jones no matter how bad Roy Moore is, that's a lot more immediate and concrete. So while you're right, I think it's pretty understandable why people aim their attacks at voters, at least in the lead-up to an election like this (and in the aftermath if it goes poorly). It's not productive at all, but it's understandable.
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Dec 11, 2017 20:13
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Koalas March posted:If he wants to get the black vote he should be campaigning more on convicting the Church bombers. That would be odd, seeing how the one consistent thing I’ve seen out of the campaign is “I prosecuted the KKK.”
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Dec 11, 2017 20:29
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Koalas March posted:If he wants to get the black vote he should be campaigning more on convicting the Church bombers. It baffles me that his message isn't "back then, I stood up for the black community against terrorists, and today I will stand up for the black community to support [Democrat stuff]." Like running on "I did a thing" isn't going to work but "I did a thing so you can trust that I will do more things" is a good message.
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Dec 11, 2017 20:30
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Lightning Knight posted:It baffles me that his message isn't "back then, I stood up for the black community against terrorists, and today I will stand up for the black community to support [Democrat stuff]." Like running on "I did a thing" isn't going to work but "I did a thing so you can trust that I will do more things" is a good message. Yeah, exactly! A "These were my values then and they are my values now. I will continue to serve the black community. I don't just talk the talk, I walk the walk and this is my truth" kinda deal would probably go over well.
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Dec 11, 2017 20:37
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Koalas March posted:Yeah, exactly! A "These were my values then and they are my values now. I will continue to serve the black community. I don't just talk the talk, I walk the walk and this is my truth" kinda deal would probably go over well. Unfortunately his dumbass campaign advisors are afraid of offending white Alabama voters. 
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Dec 11, 2017 20:38
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Lightning Knight posted:Unfortunately his dumbass campaign advisors are afraid of offending white Alabama voters. Yeah that's my guess, he's probably trying to avoid alienating racist white people. My guess is he's saying "I walk the walk" via door to door volunteers whose message we wouldn't hear, by design.
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Dec 11, 2017 20:40
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BarbarianElephant posted:These guys are so far left that anything that isn't true communism might as well be the same thing. Their personal Overton window is slammed way to the left. Clinton and Trump are both capitalists, so they might as well be the same person. Your characterization of these voters is a ridiculous straw man Chomskyan posted:Activists worry Doug Jones isn’t doing enough to turn out the black vote Red and Black fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Dec 11, 2017 |
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Dec 11, 2017 20:42
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah that's my guess, he's probably trying to avoid alienating racist white people. That's what I am hoping. I decided to quit drinking in June and I swear to christ if I had money and Moore got elected my sobriety would be in serious danger. I am so very loving tired of predators. I feel like I have been reliving my trauma for months now. 
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Dec 11, 2017 21:16
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A big problem for the Jones campaign is going to be the sheer lack of infrastructure for black turnout, particularly in rural areas. It’s hard enough to do at times when there’s an already-present organizational structure within an urban area, I can’t imagine that many people have experience turning black voters out in local elections, let alone statewide. That’s probably more critical than message.
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Dec 11, 2017 21:20
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Don’t forget Jones was supposed to be the token Democratic candidate who agreed to get mauled by a Republican because it’s Alabama. Nobody dreamed he’d be in a competitive race. It’s hardly a surprise he’s a flawed candidate. It took the Republicans deciding to unseat a sitting Senator with full party and Presidential backing to run a child molester cowboy to make this a competitive race. I can’t imagine there was a line around the block of promising young progressive Democrats excited to run back when it was against incumbent Senator Luther Strange.
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Dec 11, 2017 21:42
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BGrifter posted:Don’t forget Jones was supposed to be the token Democratic candidate who agreed to get mauled by a Republican because it’s Alabama. Nobody dreamed he’d be in a competitive race. It’s hardly a surprise he’s a flawed candidate. Whenever someone complains about Republicans in deep red districts running unopposed, remember this too. Anything but the tiniest local election is pretty expensive to run for. Even with strong party backing there's likely to be money coming out of pocket. There's time commitment too, especially when you're talking some state or large district that requires a lot of travel to campaign on top of the actual work you do. It means you're going to have trouble finding people willing to put all that on the line for a race they only have a chance at if their opponent drops dead or gets caught loving kids. When you do get someone, they'll probably either be kinda nutty, or else such a party loyalist that they'll run a hopeless campaign for sake of the broader ticket. This leads to the opposite "why did the DNC pick such a bad candidate?" complaint. (They're not actually opposite complaints because the people who make one invariably make the other)
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Dec 11, 2017 22:25
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Ytlaya posted:I'm not sure this is actually true, at least when this argument is made from the left. I've seen this opinion from centrists, but I don't think I've ever seen the left (on these forums, at least) arguing that we should sacrifice social issues to appeal to Trump voters. That's always just been a straw-man created by anti-leftist liberals I've definitely seen people like this on these forums. They don't care much about social issues, just economic socialism. Some people like this actually voted Trump, because he lied about bringing back mines and factories.
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Dec 11, 2017 22:32
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"pee pee doo doo" - someone itt i dont like
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Dec 12, 2017 01:02
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BarbarianElephant posted:I've definitely seen people like this on these forums. They don't care much about social issues, just economic socialism. Some people like this actually voted Trump, because he lied about bringing back mines and factories. Yeah. Do we now have collective amnesia where that other anime avatar guy didn’t spend six months whining about “IDPOL!111” ?
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Dec 12, 2017 01:10
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exploded mummy posted:Hawaii was a caucus, not a primary. Hawaii does not have caucuses. There is a preference poll, which is what I’m referring to, and then a real state sponsored primary that takes place after the convention. It is astoundingly stupid.
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Dec 12, 2017 01:22
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BarbarianElephant posted:I've definitely seen people like this on these forums. They don't care much about social issues, just economic socialism. Some people like this actually voted Trump, because he lied about bringing back mines and factories. There were a few that inhabited certain areas during the primary. It was only a year ago but goddamn did crazy goons come out of the woodwork (I think some threads were averaging 2000+ replies a day)
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Dec 12, 2017 01:32
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Here. have some stuff from the DNC Unity Reform Comission public meeting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAvblBnXV-w
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Dec 12, 2017 02:26
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https://twitter.com/jonallendc/status/940389382334418944
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Dec 12, 2017 02:30
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Minion of Freya posted:I absolutely refuse to believe that you give an actual gently caress about dead Muslims on the other side of the planet. You just want a stick to beat Obama with because, get this, you're not actually any kind of leftist. If you gave a poo poo about Muslim lives you wouldn't be concern trolling the only major political party (because we only have two) that thinks they deserve citizenship and civil rights. "Virtue signaling" is always the funniest accusation against leftists and progressives because it fails at everything except for revealing the speaker's twisted inner soul. Here, the speaker not only can't conceive of Yemenis or Pakistanis as human beings with friends and family and hopes and dreams and a complex inner life equal to their own, but can't even comprehend why anyone else would see them as human beings or care about them being casually murdered. And anyone who appears to do so, well it must just be some kind of trick, because they just assume everyone else is just as dark and withered inside as them.
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Dec 12, 2017 03:11
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As someone who lived in Alabama until three years ago, I have a lot of friends involved in the Jones campaign. The national media has spent the majority of the last weeks talking about the "black vote" as if the ground game hasn't been pretty strong. Maybe if the national media and white folks on the left spent more time covering and lobbying about the awful voter suppression going on in the state instead of setting us up as a scapegoat, maybe the election wouldn't be close.
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Dec 12, 2017 03:34
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Kokoro Wish posted:Here. have some stuff from the DNC Unity Reform Comission public meeting: If these directors don’t know where the money is going, doesn’t that say something about their attentiveness in oversight? Shouldn’t we hold our DNC leadership to higher standards?
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Dec 12, 2017 03:50
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Fluffdaddy posted:As someone who lived in Alabama until three years ago, I have a lot of friends involved in the Jones campaign. The national media has spent the majority of the last weeks talking about the "black vote" as if the ground game hasn't been pretty strong. Maybe if the national media and white folks on the left spent more time covering and lobbying about the awful voter suppression going on in the state instead of setting us up as a scapegoat, maybe the election wouldn't be close. Alabama also isn't Mississippi (in terms of black population). The math isn't there for black folks to save the democrats even if voter suppression wasn't a concern (it remains a huge issue rooted in racism, but solving that wouldn't immediately put this in the bag for Jones) . I have some friends out there knocking on doors too, and it does sound people are putting in serious hours out there and the ground game is probably better than the news indicates, but at the end of the day, some white people are going to have to not vote for a pedophile if Jones has a shot here.
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Dec 12, 2017 03:57
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Kokoro Wish posted:Here. have some stuff from the DNC Unity Reform Comission public meeting: Spread this around.
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Dec 12, 2017 04:16
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1: I guarantee you the people at that rally don't know that. B: Unless Joe played for the Tide they ain't gonna care.
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Dec 12, 2017 04:21
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Koalas March posted:That's what I am hoping. I hope you stay sober KM, and I’m glad you gave up drinking.
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Dec 12, 2017 04:23
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C. Everett Koop posted:1: I guarantee you the people at that rally don't know that. They do know. That town is right next to the one I grew up in. I probably went to school with a lot of the people there. They may be racist but they are not idiots.
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Dec 12, 2017 05:01
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botany posted:or you could just make election day a federal holiday Holiday or not, you can’t just close hospitals down (and other necessary workers, etc) My ex didn’t vote this past year because she had a 7a-7p shift and her hospital is over an hour away. Vote by mail should be the default with a large enough window
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Dec 12, 2017 06:04
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Fluffdaddy posted:They may be racist but they are not idiots.  I get that it's Alabama and we're grading on a scale but still.Anyway, happy democrat defeat day everyone, in which the GOP shows just how far they can sink and still come out ahead because the dems are a waste.
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Dec 12, 2017 06:04
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aBagorn posted:Holiday or not, you can’t just close hospitals down (and other necessary workers, etc) I think ideally you want both. Vote by mail has problems too, late breaking news, etc.
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Dec 12, 2017 06:11
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vote by mail, early voting, voting holiday, mandatory voting
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Dec 12, 2017 06:36
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Calibanibal posted:vote by mail, early voting, voting holiday, mandatory voting Why on earth would you want to force someone to vote when they don't want to?
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Dec 12, 2017 06:55
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why is that your first post itt lol post more often
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Dec 12, 2017 06:56
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C. Everett Koop posted:
Right wing continues to oppress us. Meanwhile the left wing continues to pretend we don't exist to feel morally superior. Its so tiring to be stuck in the middle of this white people civil war.
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Dec 12, 2017 07:43
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Mornacale posted:Why on earth would you want to force someone to vote when they don't want to? So that it becomes a crime to prevent them voting. We have mandatory voting down under and it works just fine. You are free to draw a dick on the ballot or leave it blank.
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Dec 12, 2017 08:28
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Inescapable Duck posted:So that it becomes a crime to prevent them voting. So when the voting black precincts run out of ballots you throw the Black people who couldn't vote in prison?
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Dec 12, 2017 08:33
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karthun posted:So when the voting black precincts run out of ballots you throw the Black people who couldn't vote in prison? Maybe you should look up how it works. Suffice to say there is not even any equivalent of that happening.
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Dec 12, 2017 08:35
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