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Darko posted:The more I think about it, the more subversive this movie is. As in, people expected a good movie and got a boring average at best one? It's been close to a day since I saw it now and I'm more annoyed by the slow speed car chase than anything else now, and I didn't like it at the time. Why did they think making Star Wars 8 a Speed sequel was a good idea because that's literally what it is. You go too fast and you'll explode. You go too slow and you'll explode. Father Ted did it better. Josuke Higashikata fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 07:41
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Darko posted:The more I think about it, the more subversive this movie is. I dunno man. I like the idea that maybe Kylo is right, but would Disney let Rian Johnson make a movie that says the Jedi are bad and shouldn't go on forever and make a million sequels
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Dec 15, 2017 07:43
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Gologle posted:I've dodged this entire thread to prevent myself being spoiled, so after I read the posts that I missed I'll edit this post. Having just got back from seeing the movie, here's my main thoughts: he wants to throw that all away but still be a ruler and is thirsty for power. He is literally the next Snoke.
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Dec 15, 2017 07:46
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Josuke Higashikata posted:As in, people expected a good movie and got a boring average at best one? It was a classic naval action plot, like something out of a Horatio Hornblower novel or a WWII movie.
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Dec 15, 2017 07:46
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Things I noticed in the credits: *Mark Hamill has another credit beyond just "Luke Skywalker" *Rian Johnson's best actor buddy has a voice role *Peter Mayhew was credited as Chewbacca Consultant (or something similar) *Justin Theroux is the Master Codebreaker which I completely forgot I'm sure there are other guest roles that aren't in the credits but these are the ones I caught
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Dec 15, 2017 07:47
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"Wipe away the current system and rebuild with me as ruler" is literally what Palpatine did.
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Dec 15, 2017 07:47
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I think the natural conclusion to this movie should have been Rey joining Kylo, but they couldn't have their role model lady lead turn "evil" like that, even if Kylo was 100% correct in saying gently caress you to the old ways. In story terms, she would have joined him if he had ordered a ceasefire.
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Dec 15, 2017 07:53
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Enjoyed it. It had so much dumb crap in it, but it was still super fun. It wasn't eye rollingly bad like the Force Awakens which I am thankful for. I probably will see it maybe once more in my lifetime.
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Dec 15, 2017 07:54
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I was really disappointed in this movie. It's like they had a list of points they needed to hit and the only way to hit them all in one movie was to have slow ships filled with fighters chase after mostly unarmed slow ships because...
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Dec 15, 2017 07:55
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Yeah I didn't understand why the First Order weren't just like you know " Call our friends we've been here a few hours , let them know where the rebel fleet is, jump in on top of them".
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Dec 15, 2017 07:58
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Rey, a junkyard kid born to a couple of alcoholic nobodies, is the Chosen One of the Actual Revolution and the living embodiment of the Force, whose goal is the total liberation of the weak and oppressed and the destruction of the strict hierarchy separating Jedi and non-Jedi, humanoid and droid. Anakin and Kylo, indoctrinated from an early age, are used as mere tools to artificially bring balance to the force by leading a new generation of young Jedi enforcers who will watch and protect a hapless and corrupt Republic from itself. Both are failed by their masters, who - like Snoke - use their vulgar magic space powers to "read" them without really understanding them. Both rightly see the corrupt institutions surrounding them as The Problem, and decide to achieve Perfection through the blunt instrument of force. The Jedi qua Jedi, that is, as a group of midichlorianed-up ubermensch, need to be destroyed, and Rey is the instrument of their destruction. Whether or not Disney will follow through with this idea remains to be seen. Probably not. KaptainKrunk fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 08:00
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Kind of funny that in the old EU, the only main OT character to bite it was Chewie. He's going to be the only one left standing by the time this trilogy is done.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:06
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garycoleisgod posted:I think the natural conclusion to this movie should have been Rey joining Kylo, but they couldn't have their role model lady lead turn "evil" like that, even if Kylo was 100% correct in saying gently caress you to the old ways. Did every one of you see a different movie? Kylo didn't just say "gently caress you to the old ways" he said "kill the old fucks and me and you will rule" he was literally just replacing Snoke as Supreme Leader and wanted Rey to be his apprentice. Just because he didn't want to call it Sith doesn't mean it was any loving better.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:08
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DrNutt posted:Kind of funny that in the old EU, the only main OT character to bite it was Chewie. He's going to be the only one left standing by the time this trilogy is done. I have my doubts. I can see him kamikaze'ing the Falcon so he can join Luke, Leia and Han as some sort of honourary force ghost (Han off screen because there's not enough money in the world to make him show-up in Star Wars again)
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Dec 15, 2017 08:09
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NoNotTheMindProbe posted:Saw this today and I liked it a lot. On a purely formalist level TFA is more tightly written and directed but TLJ is a lot more interesting both visually and in terms of plot and characters. Is Luke Skywalker a stand-in for George Lucas, here? The theme of the casino subplot seems to be scales falling from Finn's eyes, or the pursuit of a romantic dream vs the difficulties and small victories of reality. They're looking for a James Bond type and end up with a dubious, untrustworthy substitute when its unlikely their original goal would even give them the time of day. Finn's at first impressed with the glamour of the casino then realises it's built on money from the same system that enslaved him and the sale of the weapons that terrify him. They hope to escape and spark a revolution, but in the end accept that they might get captured anyway and at least they saved a bunch of abused animals in the process. And then there's the bit where BB-8 uses money as a weapon in the most literal sense, money obtained whether she wanted it or not from a rich, drunken fool who mistakes her for a gambling machine. And that's all the use the money is to her, as a revolutionary; they have no qualms about stealing what they need, especially from the wealthy, and they encourage the slaves there to be ready to rebel at any moment, after putting some fear into their masters.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:09
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The slow-ship-chase made me rewatch BSG's "33" again, and drat, still one of the best hours of TV ever made.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:10
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Ren's character is basically the realization of "The Empire would have been Good if Vader instead of that weird wrinkly gently caress were in charge" but it's Anakin instead.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:11
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The best part of the Finn/Rose/Poe sublot was showing that all these one in a million chance schemes are pretty loving dumb and would realistically fail and that the people in charge are there for a reason. This movie shat all over Rogue One's dumb script directly.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:12
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Josuke Higashikata posted:I have my doubts.  We'll see I guess, but given that he could easily be recast (and I think it's mostly someone else in the suit most of the time now anyway) it would seem silly to do him dirty like that.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:12
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The more I think about it after seeing it the more I dislike the whole film. So many poorly thought out scenes and plot devices. The overall story arc was fine, but the screenplay was just so bad. - Gwendoline Christie was wasted in her role. Captain Phasma might as well not have existed at all outside of being a poorly thought out plot device in episode 7. - Not explaining anything about Snoke is just poo poo writing. Andy Serkis did what he could, but give us some backstory please. Who the gently caress was he and how did he turn Ben? - The casino planet was a waste of 30 minutes. - The almost execution scene was so poorly done. When the ship gets hit suddenly everyone else disappears and the protaganists wake up by themselves? What? Where are all the storm trooper bodies? Then suddenly Phasma and 20 other dudes come marching from half way across the hanger in step when they were just there right next to them? bb8 in the walker was pretty dumb, but whatever, there was no continuity there at all. - If fighters could catch the cruiser (but didn't want to get out of range of their own ships?) and they could fly all the way down to the planet, why didn't they just send a poo poo load of tie fighters at the unarmed transports?
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Dec 15, 2017 08:12
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KaptainKrunk posted:Ren's character is basically the realization of "The Empire would have been Good if Vader instead of that weird wrinkly gently caress were in charge" but it's Anakin instead. When even the good guys agree with your basic premise, maybe it's time to rethink things. I mean yeah, the First Order is bad and Kylo by himself would be just another dictator like Palpatime, but that's why you have Rey.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:14
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Danger posted:Like literally Kylo begging her to move beyond the generation that hosed everything up, leave behind the caste system, was the central message of the film. It was the entire point of the casino plot. But Kylo didn't want to "leave behind the caste system", just like Anakin didn't; he wants to be the architect of a new world, not a comrade. He's an authoritarian revolutionary, not a populist one. I also understand peoples' sympathies, though, and so does Johnson. Honestly I think it's less "Rey is the villain" and more "the script is kinda confused and simultaneously wants to have its cake and eat it too".
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Dec 15, 2017 08:17
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Just realised the movie begins and ends with a Resistance hero using chutzpah, confusion and the childish arrogance of the First Order's leadership to stall for time.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:18
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Bottom Liner posted:Did every one of you see a different movie? Kylo didn't just say "gently caress you to the old ways" he said "kill the old fucks and me and you will rule" he was literally just replacing Snoke as Supreme Leader and wanted Rey to be his apprentice. Just because he didn't want to call it Sith doesn't mean it was any loving better. That casino planet has existed for longer than a few days. The slavery and injustice there was there under the Republic. Luke himself said the Empire was the Jedis own fault. The First order are bad, but so is the Republic, it is just a change of team colours. Like I said, if Kylo had ordered a ceasefire Rey would have been on board. I'm not saying this is a happy ending, but it's the one suggested by Reys connection to Kylo and her experience on the island. But it would mean Rey is evil, so its a no go. There's a reason Kylo is more interesting, even if he looks like a school shooter.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:18
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Inescapable Duck posted:Is Luke Skywalker a stand-in for George Lucas, here? Absolutely. He spends the whole time on the island making GBS threads on the hero's journey power fantasy that Star Wars nerds get hyped up on. Even at the end of the movie when he decides to help out by doing a famous last stand it's all smoke and mirrors and he ends up "dying" on his own terms in a very peaceful and boring way.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:19
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Codependent Poster posted:I think they made it pretty clear with Leia saying that she knows he can't be saved that Kylo isn't gonna get redemption. Now I'm picturing that bit from "Ghost", with Patrick Swayze singing that "Henry the 8th" song at Whoopi Goldberg 24/7 for days/weeks... Except it's Luke shout-singing "Binary Sunset" at Kylo in every scene he's in.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:21
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Gologle posted:When even the good guys agree with your basic premise, maybe it's time to rethink things. I mean yeah, the First Order is bad and Kylo by himself would be just another dictator like Palpatime, but that's why you have Rey. So she helps old ladies over the street to balance out Kylo genociding another village? He lightning tortures a school class in the morning, she uses the force to build a new kindergarten in the afternoon? There is no "balancing out" being a fascist, genocidal rear end in a top hat by doing good deeds to compensate.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:22
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The casino felt like a muddled attempt to add an extra moral message. But it could have been cut from the plot completely and it wouldn't have changed a thing. And acting Admiral who had an impulsive hotshot working under her could have reasonably expected him to do an impulsive hotshot thing. All the more reason to tell him the plan. "Hey, we're going to get as close to the planet as we can before launching transports. I'll buy time hyperjumping this into their fleet once the transports are away."
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Dec 15, 2017 08:22
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^^^ Cloaked transports at that.Decius posted:The slow-ship-chase made me rewatch BSG's "33" again, and drat, still one of the best hours of TV ever made. The whole pursuit plot feels like someone watched a few episodes of BSG and hammered something out. Like, you've got edgy characters who don't trust each other and withhold vital information that'd stop them making bad decisions (the subversive argument only carries things so far, it's boring to watch everyone be stupid to each other). You've got a woman has been promoted to leadership and the military doesn't trust her (this is more weird in TLJ because she's an Admiral).You've got the 33-esque constant pursuit but without any of the threat or tension and, seemingly, without either side of the pursuit taking the best steps towards victory. It sucks.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:23
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Mantis42 posted:I guess if you look at it through the correct ideological lens, This could be the response to any post that guy makes
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Dec 15, 2017 08:24
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garycoleisgod posted:That casino planet has existed for longer than a few days. The slavery and injustice there was there under the Republic. Luke himself said the Empire was the Jedis own fault. But you're ignoring the core issue that Kylo doesn't want to do away with any of that, just be the new ruler of it.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:25
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Star Wars has never made much fuss about 'cloaking' compared to even Star Trek, where it becomes a stand-in for submarine battles. It seems implied to be more radar jamming than a visual thing.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:27
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The code breaker in the casino was a white Lando. Don't forget a Porg nearly lightsabers another Porg. Inescapable Duck posted:Star Wars has never made much fuss about 'cloaking' compared to even Star Trek, where it becomes a stand-in for submarine battles. It seems implied to be more radar jamming than a visual thing. Yes. Thats what I took as well.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:28
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NoNotTheMindProbe posted:Absolutely. He spends the whole time on the island making GBS threads on the hero's journey power fantasy that Star Wars nerds get hyped up on. Even at the end of the movie when he decides to help out by doing a famous last stand it's all smoke and mirrors and he ends up "dying" on his own terms in a very peaceful and boring way. Makes sense, though it seems like possibly a deliberate nod given Lucas infamously uses 'laser swords' in interviews. (until people caught on. I'd insistently refer to them as 'beam katanas', or possibly 'luminous flamberges' until either I run out of ideas or they drag me away)
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Dec 15, 2017 08:28
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And I think we're not getting a Lando appearance because Billy Dee Williams is barely mobile at this point.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:29
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Wank posted:
Rian shoulda had the balls to do it. Or at least let Chewie have a bite of the roast porg.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:31
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What I find interesting (maybe annoying? idk) is that TFA spends a lot of script and performance real estate establishing these really fun Finn/Rey and Finn/Poe chemistries, then follow it up with a sequel with a microscopic amount of those interactions returning. Even with ESB having a similar split-cast plot, you still had the non-Luke characters fairly clumped up, not to mention that at the film's onset it's established that the three have been doing Rebel Adventures for the last few years. I wonder if this is an actual objective of the sequel trilogy, to ease viewers in with the classic Trinity Cast with TFA, but then slowly spread it out to a wider, interconnected ensemble, which is more seen in Prestige TV dramas than blockbuster flicks.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:31
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Rian Johnson has a much better grasp for the pacing and feel of old WWII and Samurai movies than JJ Abrams. The bomber sortie at the start, the ship chase, the throne room fight and the salt planet fight were all spot on. In TFA the battles feel more "floaty" and light like a transformers film.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:34
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Inescapable Duck posted:Star Wars has never made much fuss about 'cloaking' compared to even Star Trek, where it becomes a stand-in for submarine battles. It seems implied to be more radar jamming than a visual thing. I was curious and checked on Wookieepedia and the current canon says it's definitely invisibility. Never been actually shown in the films, though.
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Dec 15, 2017 08:39
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I think somehow that if your way of wiping the slate clean and bringing balance to the galaxy is to become leader of a fascist army that blows up planets, maybe - just maybe - your view on society can't be trusted outright, even if a guy said "midichlorian" a few movies back.
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