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Geisladisk posted:You gotta go 41 points into the talent tree to get the juiciest powers like Force Illusion and Force Lighting bro, hybrid specs are useless B-but in SWG you could do both 
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Dec 17, 2017 01:34
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Powers would probably be good or bad depending on how you use them. Yoda can shoot lightning at inanimate objects to prove a point to whiny brats and still be good, but he doesn't use it to hurt people.
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Dec 17, 2017 01:38
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Geisladisk posted:Heroes are flawed and dangerous, we don't need heroes, we need to inspire the public -> Actually Luke single handedly space magick'd to save the day, also we kind of revere Rey as a deity now Luke didn’t single handedly save the day. He used his presence to inspire the others to get the gently caress to safety and regroup. He also showed up to try and communicate deeply with Kylo Ren. This is all openly expressed in expository dialogue. Those birds just kind of moved into the ship when it was parked there. Chewbacca didn’t seem too thrilled about it. He seemed annoyed, was yelling about it, and didn’t he even smack one off the console at some point?
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Dec 17, 2017 01:41
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It's always been a bit weird to me that Jedi are depicted both in movies and EU material as thumbing their nose at using the force to physically harm people, but are totally fine with using it to gently caress with people's minds and sense of self ("Those are not the droids you are looking for"), which is arguably a much greater and insidious violation than just causing pain.
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Dec 17, 2017 01:41
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Geisladisk posted:It's always been a bit weird to me that Jedi are depicted both in movies and EU material as thumbing their nose at using the force to physically harm people, but are totally fine with using it to gently caress with people's minds and sense of self ("Those are not the droids you are looking for"), which is arguably a much greater and insidious violation than just causing pain.
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Dec 17, 2017 01:42
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Foppish Yet Dashing posted:Luke didn’t single handedly save the day. He used his presence to inspire the others to get the gently caress to safety and regroup. He also showed up to try and communicate deeply with Kylo Ren. This is all openly expressed in expository dialogue. I think you must be being either playing at rhetoric for a point or devil's advocate or something because it's very clear that he absolutely single-handedly saved the day. Put it like this: without Luke's single-handed act, would the #Resistance have lost? Yes, they would have. He saved the day. Not that it matters, but I've been interested since seeing TLJ to go back and listen to what Lucas' thoughts were on the nature of the force and his idea about storytelling and whatnot--especially since the perception and concepts of the force have changed quite a bit between 1-6 and R1, 7 and especially 8. Again, it doesn't matter to the text but it's interesting as a fan of the series anywho. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DByPy8aEPw Geisladisk posted:It's always been a bit weird to me that Jedi are depicted both in movies and EU material as thumbing their nose at using the force to physically harm people, but are totally fine with using it to gently caress with people's minds and sense of self ("Those are not the droids you are looking for"), which is arguably a much greater and insidious violation than just causing pain. The Jedi are bad. They have never been good. This is canon.
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Dec 17, 2017 01:47
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Geisladisk posted:The movie contradicted itself so much that it must have been a conscious decision. I don't wanna get in the reeds about what was 'intended' or not. You're right, though, that it does happen routinely and consistently to the point that it's a major theme of the movie that everyone's talking themselves out of their better judgment to satisfy their base emotion. I can't help but notice that this is the philosophy of the Dark Side. In effect the movie ends with the idea that we defeat evil by co-opting its rhetoric and ideology.
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Dec 17, 2017 01:50
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I liked that jedi yin-yang symbol on the floor
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Dec 17, 2017 01:52
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The Last Jedi is really about the aging, rapacious baby boomers and their increasingly desperate attempts to blame millennials for the world's ills while simultaneously stealing from them * Middle-aged Boomer Luke senses darkness in Ben and jumps to the conclusion than Ben, as a millennial, is debased, narcissistic, and uncontrollable ("why are millennials not gambling more on Canto Bight?") and not that Ben is wholly disenchanted by the wars, disasters, and the increasing predation of the ruling class during his lifetime, and attempts to directly contain Ben without confronting the root causes * Elderly Boomer Luke would rather hoard his accumulated knowledge / wealth and take it to the grave rather than pass it on to the younger generation in an orderly fashion that allows the young to prosper in their own right, and furthermore, has deluded himself into believing that this is actually virtuous behavior * Boomer Snoke assumes that the strife within Kylo Ren can be controlled and redirected in a way that ultimately benefits the ruling elite, and in his hubris cannot comprehend that millennial Ren wants to follow the example of the heroes of the Greatest Generation (Darth Vader), and destroy and reshape the entire rotten edifice that has led to the current state of affairs * The Resistance millennials are so angered and bewildered by the apparently incomprehensible and nihilistic behavior of Vice Admiral Holdo (the Boomer ruling class) that they stage their own rebellion (Occupy Wall Street), which is of course quickly crushed and they are scolded for being naive and they should just trust in their rulers to have their best interests in mind Linguica fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 01:53
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So as someone who saw SW8 but has not seen SW7, am I crazy for thinking that Snoke comes across as an in-universe Palpatine fanboy? also I like how the reckless insane plan that goes against the leaders actually backfires for what feels like the first time in film history
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Dec 17, 2017 01:54
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Elyv posted:So as someone who saw SW8 but has not seen SW7, am I crazy for thinking that Snoke comes across as an in-universe Palpatine fanboy? I'd say he's a Vader fanboy but a Palpatine cosplayer, but that's splitting hairs.
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Dec 17, 2017 01:58
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Elyv posted:So as someone who saw SW8 but has not seen SW7, am I crazy for thinking that Snoke comes across as an in-universe Palpatine fanboy? Snoke being a Palpatine fanboy wasn’t played at all in 7 but I like the idea after having seen 8. Goes well with Kylo being a Vader fanboy and Snokes weirdly flashy throneroom and guard dancers.
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Dec 17, 2017 01:59
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Elyv posted:So as someone who saw SW8 but has not seen SW7, am I crazy for thinking that Snoke comes across as an in-universe Palpatine fanboy? In 7 Snoke is the Wizard of Oz, but we don't get to peek behind the curtain. He is projected via hologram to be room sized. In that sense he is literally towering over the events of TFA. We are told he is directly responsible for the growth of the First Order and the state of the galaxy.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:01
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Elyv posted:So as someone who saw SW8 but has not seen SW7, am I crazy for thinking that Snoke comes across as an in-universe Palpatine fanboy? People are so detached from the films that an astonishing number have concluded that the whole conflict represents cosplay and internet trolling.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:04
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Elyv posted:So as someone who saw SW8 but has not seen SW7, am I crazy for thinking that Snoke comes across as an in-universe Palpatine fanboy? Go see Force Awakens. It’s pretty good.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:05
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SeANMcBAY posted:Go see Force Awakens. It’s pretty good. Don't do this Elyv. Save the money and time. You'll be utterly astonished at how vacant it is, especially in light of TLJ disposing of it entirely.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:07
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Linguica posted:The Last Jedi is really about the aging, rapacious baby boomers and their increasingly desperate attempts to blame millennials for the world's ills while simultaneously stealing from them Generational conflict is an illusion. There is only class conflict. This is just as true in Star Wars as it is in real life.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:10
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Waffles Inc. posted:Don't do this Elyv. Save the money and time. You'll be utterly astonished at how vacant it is, especially in light of TLJ disposing of it entirely. That’s just another reason to see it imo. It does have fun scenes too.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:13
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SeANMcBAY posted:That’s just another reason to see it imo. It does have fun scenes too. Fair point. cargohills posted:Generational conflict is an illusion. There is only class conflict. This is just as true in Star Wars as it is in real life. Not to mention that, like a lot of these comparisons, it doesn't make any sense past the initial look. In what ways is the Luke of TLJ an "Elderly Boomer", or rather, what characteristics does he possess that would make him evocative as a Boomer? Apparently his "hoarding" of accumulated knowledge...which isn't true? It's applying a reading to the text as opposed to drawing a reading from it, imo
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Dec 17, 2017 02:17
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Rose is the best character if for no other reason than she did a totally bomb-rear end emperor impression, complete with "DO IT"
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Dec 17, 2017 02:21
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I will say that the story DLC for the much maligned Battlefront 2 (and rightly so) is a better experience than The Last Jedi, in that it takes the loving mess of what came before it and stitches it together in a way that has a good payoff for the characters and the shitbag villain displays a degree of competency for the heroes to work together and outwit. Also you play as an old mom running around a star destroyer with what is very clearly an M60 with a giant can attached blasting stormtroopers with lasers, after zooming around an asteroid field blasting prequel ships in an X-Wing.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:22
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Waffles Inc. posted:I think you must be being either playing at rhetoric for a point or devil's advocate or something because it's very clear that he absolutely single-handedly saved the day. True, and he also did the things I mentioned. So, really, that makes him a very nice three dimensional character in that scene. It's great.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:22
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Waffles Inc. posted:In what ways is the Luke of TLJ an "Elderly Boomer", or rather, what characteristics does he possess that would make him evocative as a Boomer? Kid of a guy who fought in the last war that involved basically every country
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Dec 17, 2017 02:33
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Foppish Yet Dashing posted:True, and he also did the things I mentioned. So, really, that makes him a very nice three dimensional character in that scene. It's great. I liked the scene, myself, but it and many others do undermine what seemed to be a thesis of the movie which is "heroics are bad, listen to your bosses without questioning them, don't punch nazis" It's a thematically confused movie, even moreso with that scene Tunicate posted:Kid of a guy who fought in the last war that involved basically every country That's what makes a Boomer? Not anything to do with the political climate of post war United States of America, Earth, Milky Way, Universe, Real World?
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Dec 17, 2017 02:33
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Taintrunner posted:I will say that the story DLC for the much maligned Battlefront 2 (and rightly so) is a better experience than The Last Jedi, in that it takes the loving mess of what came before it and stitches it together in a way that has a good payoff for the characters and the shitbag villain displays a degree of competency for the heroes to work together and outwit. Also you play as an old mom running around a star destroyer with what is very clearly an M60 with a giant can attached blasting stormtroopers with lasers, after zooming around an asteroid field blasting prequel ships in an X-Wing. "Competency" does not make a good villain. The First Order, Hux and Kylo Ren would all be significantly less interesting if Rian Johnson had decided to take whatever mad writing class tells you that all antagonists should be the same.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:34
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Attorney at Funk posted:I'd say he's a Vader fanboy but a Palpatine cosplayer, but that's splitting hairs. My read of that was that as part of Snoke's Palpatine impression, he also needs a Vader. I'm okay with that interpretation too, though. SeANMcBAY posted:Go see Force Awakens. It’s pretty good. My friend was surprised I hadn't seen it so I'm probably going to borrow it from him and watch it later this week.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:35
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Tunicate posted:Kid of a guy who fought in the last war that involved basically every country Doesn't that make Ben Solo the boomer, given that the last war that involved basically every country (planet) was the one that Luke, Han and Leia fought in?
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Dec 17, 2017 02:35
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I think what you should take away from the whole out with the old theme is that it's basically the French Revolution. Yes, the Jedi are bad, the arms dealers profit off child slavery and selling weapons to others, but we see the new that all the characters are spouting is a bunch of poorly thought out dumb poo poo with no real consideration of the consequences. Rose and Finn trashing the casino seems like a real good idea but ultimately accomplishes nothing. Poe's mutiny - while stemming from legitimate concerns about Holdo's poor leadership/planning skills - ultimately just weakens the rebels and in the end ruins their plans. The end result isn't that all the concerns about the Jedi/failure/the arms dealers are wrong, the message is that blindly throwing the baby out with the bathwater with no consideration of where we go from that is doomed to end in failure. Rey takes the Jedi books not to faithfully recreate the Jedi order, but to figure out what should be done for the new and learn from its failures like Luke and Yoda wanted.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:37
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The more I think about the movie the more I like that there are almost no adults left in charge. It’s just a bunch of kids doing what they think is right based on how their parents hosed them up. I mean Star Wars has always been about daddy issues but it’s interesting to see the characters from episodes 1-6 become the daddies causing the issues
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Dec 17, 2017 02:38
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trash person posted:The more I think about the movie the more I like that there are almost no adults left in charge. How did Han and Leia gently caress up Kylo?
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Dec 17, 2017 02:40
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Waffles Inc. posted:How did Han and Leia gently caress up Kylo? I got the sense Han wasn’t the most emotionally available dad just based on his character. Add on Luke’s line from TLJ where in regards to Ben going to train where he says, “And Han was Han.” And I got the sense Han wasn’t always around
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Dec 17, 2017 02:44
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Waffles Inc. posted:How did Han and Leia gently caress up Kylo? Luke's the real father figure. He showed up in his bed with a tumescent burning rod. Kinda fucks a kid up.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:45
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Waffles Inc. posted:I liked the scene, myself, but it and many others do undermine what seemed to be a thesis of the movie which is "heroics are bad, Heroics are good, but sacrifice should be a last resort, not the first thing you try. Poe getting everyone killed to destroy the big scary ship when they could just run away and FInn trying to smash pointlessly into the big scary gun were bad; Holdo and Luke both dying because that was the only way to ensure the survival of everyone else was good. Waffles Inc. posted:listen to your bosses without questioning them, Both Poe and Holdo should have trusted each other more. If Holdo had trusted Poe with her plan, he wouldn't have ruined it. If he had trusted that she cares about the Resistance as much as he does, he wouldn't have decided that he had to make his own plan. Waffles Inc. posted:don't punch nazis" The other two points make some modicum of sense, but this is just strange. Maybe you're referring to Rose's little speech about their purpose be saving things they love and not destroying things their hate, but that doesn't mean the bad things still shouldn't be destroyed. It's just not the end goal.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:45
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Snoke is only Palpatine insofar as those who invented the character wanted to use Palpatines brand recognition without caring about how he fit into the universe. OT Palpatine may not have had an explored backstory but he made sense and seamlessly fit into the universe. Smoke is a cargo cult imitation designed by corporate.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:45
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It's almost as if the message of this movie was that wars [do] not make one great.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:48
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Nessus posted:That one was cool because it was in the old movie I saw as a child. Goons always make this excuse, but the prequels came out when I was a kid and I honestly a lot of complaints adult nerds have now I basically had then.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:49
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The casino part owned cause it was neat seeing a modern normal city in a Star Wars movie that’s not a prequel
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Dec 17, 2017 02:50
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TremorX posted:It's almost as if the message of this movie was that wars [do] not make one great.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:52
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cargohills posted:"Competency" does not make a good villain. The First Order, Hux and Kylo Ren would all be significantly less interesting if Rian Johnson had decided to take whatever mad writing class tells you that all antagonists should be the same. The new movies are utterly drool because the good guys get to have all the cool moments while the villains are constantly steamrolled and shown to be utterly disposable: Phasma, Snope, Hux are all either a) thrown in the literal garbage b) severed in two and thrown in the metaphorical garbage c) Hux is... well... Hux. Kylo is the only villain with any sort of arc and is constantly upended by the protagonists - even Chewbacca gets to take a bite out of him in the previous film. Tarkin, Vader, Boba, Jabba, Vader, are all shown with varying degrees of menace that is genuinely intimidating. Of course, because these are modern factory farmed blockbusters that refuse to let any of their ideas breathe as they smash forward at a beatnik pace, we never take the time to really appreciate these villains or see them at their more vulnerable moments. All the while Rey is the best at everything ever, Leia gets to be Mary Poppins, Luke does some wizard poo poo, Holdo gets to go out kamikaze - it's what is lacking from these modern Disney Wars - is something that forces these protagonists to actually combine forces, even if they don't want to. Instead, we get a rugged individualism of everyone having their super epic awesome badass moment.
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Dec 17, 2017 02:52
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Mantis42 posted:Goons always make this excuse, but the prequels came out when I was a kid and I honestly a lot of complaints adult nerds have now I basically had then. Yeah same, I was 6 when TPM came out and 9 when AOTC came out and even then, I just thought they were, respectively, boring except for the podrace, and had a really dumb forced romance.
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