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maybe only in Sprint, as you get there quickly enough
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Dec 14, 2017 21:31
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What I like about hellcrawl: -Skill consolidation: The biggest here is the removal of conjuration, since that really lets the elemental schools breath and shine on their own. It allows for some really cool changes to backgrounds and spellbooks, too. I also like the combination of short and long blades. The removal of staves feels a little more painful, but I love the offhand staff idea. -Charms reform. This makes characters using charms so, so much more fun to play. I still don't think it's the ideal solution for every charm and it generally makes the school less interesting, but the quality of life improvement is worth it over the status quo. -Clear numbers. The arguments against this were always bullshit, but actually being able to see the numbers makes them feel even much more so. -Constant threat. There are a whole lot of "oh poo poo" moments that get your blood pumping and make the game exciting. -Removal of food: I don't even notice that it's gone because it never did anything except to annoy me anyway. What I dislike about hellcrawl: -Not enough xp: I feel like this makes weird characters, like melee deep elves, far too punishing to play. It's also probably the case that I just suck at hellcrawl. But I like Crawl's relaxed xp system. You can pretty much make whatever kind of character you want in Crawl and it will work out as long as it isn't just completely absurd. Hellcrawl is really demanding about strategic choices. I'm playing on normal, so maybe I'd like casual more, but I think then that casual should just be normal. -Constant threat / too difficult: There are just too many "oh poo poo" moments and not enough ways to reset them. A good game should make you feel like you're winning sometimes and fighting to stay alive at others. Hellcrawl doesn't achieve that balance. -No stairs: There are undeniably some good results from this change. But, all in all, I hate it. Stairdancing is too powerful, but its removal also leads to even more tedious behavior (luring and pillar dancing). Proper play without stair dancing might be more interesting, but it's also much more annoying to actually perform. And not being able to reset a terrible situation drastically increases the probability of dying to a mistake made 100 turns ago for reasons completely opaque to all but very experienced players. Furthermore, one thing I like a lot about Crawl is the fairly low key approach it takes to strategic choices. There are clocks, but they're very slow. You can gently caress around almost as much as you want and not feel punished for deciding to do something later. Hellcrawl forces you to make choices, but also makes the game more stressful and punishing in ways that I don't like. -Too much focus on cutting content / no Ashenzari: Mostly I'm just bitter about Ashenzari. There are a lot of other strategic resources that could be used to curse and uncurse gear than remove curse scrolls. The curse system could still exist unique to Ash and just require management of another long-term resource. Most of the other things that have been cut are for the best, but some weapon type removals make the game feel weird (e.g. why are all the orcs using rapiers?)
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Dec 16, 2017 16:42
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Heithinn Grasida posted:stuff The one thing I disagree with is the luring/pillar dancing being even more tedious. You can do some long-winded instances of pillar dancing, sure (lack of energy randomization lets you get away with some long sequences), but if you can do either of the things you mentioned it comes with the implication that you've scouted out and/or cleared enough of the level to do so. In a sense, you have to "earn" your right to do those tedious behaviors which is in and of itself pretty interesting (IMO), and when you get to that point you're often cleaning up the last remaining threats, so you only deal with a smaller subset of enemies using tedious behaviors which feels more tolerable. In contrast, luring and stairdancing is ubiquitous in DCSS and there is almost never any reason to not abuse those. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point or there's a big playstyle difference I'm not considering, but hellcrawl feels like a step forward in the right direction on this issue, if anything. I think Hellmonk removed Ashenzari mostly due to not having figured out a way to keep him in when ID minigame was removed. He's been adding gods back in gradually (WJC and Nemelex just returned), so maybe he just needs some ideas on how to add Ashenzari back in?
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Dec 16, 2017 18:19
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Not sure if it's a feature or a bug, but my current hellcrawl game on berotato features electric eels that can float on land and chase my dumbass MiBe around the map like Lovecraftian Scooby Doo villains.
CARL MARK FORCE IV fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 19:43
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CARL MARK FORCE IV posted:Not sure if it's a feature or a bug, but my current hellcrawl game on berotato features electric jellyfish that can float on land and chase my dumbass MiBe around the map like Lovecraftian Scooby Doo villains. Electric Eels can now leave water because 
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Dec 16, 2017 19:47
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Hahahahaha, what? That's some diabolical poo poo right there.
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Dec 16, 2017 20:38
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It means you can lure them around corners at least. Makes them significantly less annoying even if it does make them more deadly.
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Dec 16, 2017 20:39
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Toadsmash posted:Hahahahaha, what? That's some diabolical poo poo right there. Oh they can constrict too now!
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Dec 16, 2017 21:45
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If it's any consolation shock serpents got nerfed (in hellcrawl) so it's not outright suicidal to melee them without rElec 
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Dec 17, 2017 06:34
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I think the electric eels are a little better now that they leave the water. Now they sometimes just straight up kill you and there's not much you can do about it, but there are plenty of other bullshit things that can do that to you as well.apple posted:The one thing I disagree with is the luring/pillar dancing being even more tedious. You can do some long-winded instances of pillar dancing, sure (lack of energy randomization lets you get away with some long sequences), but if you can do either of the things you mentioned it comes with the implication that you've scouted out and/or cleared enough of the level to do so. In a sense, you have to "earn" your right to do those tedious behaviors which is in and of itself pretty interesting (IMO), and when you get to that point you're often cleaning up the last remaining threats, so you only deal with a smaller subset of enemies using tedious behaviors which feels more tolerable. In contrast, luring and stairdancing is ubiquitous in DCSS and there is almost never any reason to not abuse those. My experience with hellcrawl is that since any way to reset a fight that you're not likely to win is limited, you have to be really, really careful about which fights you pick, which means lots of luring. And since there's no way to escape an enemy without abandoning a floor or using consumables, when you get bad rolls, often the best thing to do is pillar dance until you can handle the fight again. While pillar dancing, and especially luring, are optimal play in Crawl, I use them far less because I can just try my luck against the bigger group of guys, then retreat to the stairs if it doesn't work. Sure, that probably kills me sometimes, but I'm not really playing for winrate, I'm playing to have fun. But in Hellcrawl, since you can't just run up the stairs and rest, it means you have to constantly be running around regenerating just that little bit of hp or mp or drawing enemies back to a cleared area. And while it's true that you can't always lure or pillar dance in Hellcrawl, realistically, you only need a small corner of the level with a good pillar to run around. I find it's not hard to find a fairly safe spot where you can run around in circles while fighting quite early in most levels. Maybe my reaction to this is strong because I try to avoid luring in Crawl in the first place, since it's not fun; because I'm bad at strategic skill choices and value what's cool over what's effective, so my characters suck, and because I'm playing really frail, weak combos like DE^En, DE^Sk and DEIE.
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Dec 17, 2017 10:16
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Updates that I'm too lazy to get the individual links for: Merge bread and meat rations. Merge fruit into rations. (Fedhas will take rations.) Make food restriction mutations single-level. Reduce ration nutrition by about 37%. (To make up for the increase in permafood from merging the food types.) Purple chunks removed. Zin gives perfect mutation resistance as soon as you hit 6* (160 piety) and will allow you to drink !mutation as !curemut at that point. Zin's capstone ability removed (treating !mut as !curemut replaces it.) I find myself less and less interested in Crawl as they keep removing fun things to play with like purple chunks... Prism fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 20:45
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the randomness is removed until eventually there is one simple y/n choice at the start of the game - do you wish to win the perfect game...
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Dec 17, 2017 22:04
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I actually like that zin change, the rest is a little  tho
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Dec 17, 2017 22:07
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I like simplifying food, I don't like getting rid of fruit for the nature god. Purple chunks being removed is just a straight up bad change.
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Dec 17, 2017 22:33
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So no more purple chunks, so you can only play mutation roulette with mutation potions, but mutation potions need to be hoarded so you can cleanse yourself of bad mutations since cure mut no longer exists. What a pointless change that just makes things less fun.
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Dec 17, 2017 22:41
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Removing purple chunks? I can't believe the devs have gone completely mad.  Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:the randomness is removed until eventually there is one simple y/n choice at the start of the game - do you wish to win
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Dec 17, 2017 22:44
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Seriously why is there any reason to remove purple chunks? Everyone agreed that eating it was a bad idea most of the time. It was not a smart decision. But it was fun. Even if you didn't get good rolls, having to deal with bad muts early on can add an interesting element of challenge. It might also just kill you, but it would be entirely your fault. Now there's no way to have fun with early mutations. If this was an old version you could chug mutation potions, but now you need to hoard those because those are the only way to actually deal with bad mutations. A fun part of the game that didn't cause any issues has now been removed. Its pointless. How loving hard is it to just stop removing stuff?!? 
Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 22:48
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At this point the only theory that makes sense is one of the devs is a spy from a rival roguelike
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Dec 17, 2017 22:52
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tote up a bags posted:At this point the only theory that makes sense is one of the devs is a spy from a rival roguelike It is usually safer to apply Hanlon's Razor instead. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
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Dec 17, 2017 23:08
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I would be okay with removing purple chunks if and only if they removed all the other kinds of chunks. I kinda would just rather play hellcrawl these days though. He's got it right.
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Dec 17, 2017 23:34
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Prism posted:Purple chunks removed. friendship ended with stone soup now hellcrawl is my best friend
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Dec 18, 2017 00:03
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I've honestly been kinda rolling my eyes at most things in here, but holy god, the developers really just don't understand what makes their game fun, do they? I certainly miss things like high elves and racial weapons and battlesphere and mountain dwarves and and and ... many other things, but the removal of a lot of that was actually defensible and somewhat understandable. It was fun but their arguments that they were overpowered, redundant, confusing to new players...it made at least a bit of sense. I've been playing Crawl since, I don't know, 2008? Gotta be close to a decade at this point, I grew up with this game in the era where it was super confusing and terrifying and unforgiving. It's still some of that, and a lot of the changes since then have been to the better, but this feels like they are simply ripping the heart out of the game, piece by piece. No OOD monsters? No purple chunks? No haste? No Hive? That's not Crawl. That's some other, less fun and more robotic roguelike. I want to try hellcrawl, but it feels soulless in a different way. No stair dancing? That's not Crawl to me. The first time I cleared the vault ambush by going invis, hasting myself, and going up and down the stairs on single digit HP, I was so elated and excited to survive and conquer and see new things. I still am! ...until about the lair. When I get back into the regular dungeon, I feel like Goku emerging from the hyperbolic time chamber. I'm so strong! I can do anything! Then it feels like two floors later I've hit the bottom of the dungeon and there's nowhere else to go. Orc is two floors of nothing. Elf is three. No rPois for Spider, not that it would matter since it isn't nearly as effective as it used to be. Slime? Haha no. Crypt is a crapshoot and Blades is short and usually not worth it. Forget the Tomb. None of my utility spells are online because they're all either gone or too high level. My melee is decent but not enough to get me past the truly difficult foes. I'm spread thin on experience and there isn't anywhere I can explore safely. Yeah maybe I'm not playing optimally but you know what? i don't care. I'm not a loving robot, I'm not a speed runner or a perfectionist. I'm not trying to win every game. I'm trying to do cool stuff and be a super fast slice machine while casting a few spells, and it isn't really possible to do that anymore. How did suboptimal playstyles even existing ruin the experience for the scumbag tournament crew? Why do they need to remove harmlessly fun things? I just don't get it. Sorry for ranting. Maybe this game just isn't for me anymore. Oh well.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:03
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gowb posted:I just don't get it. Sorry for ranting. Maybe this game just isn't for me anymore. Oh well. Its idiotic that the game is changing so much that veteran players aren't enjoying it anymore. I'm willing to cut the devs slack with some changes but this is straight up someone not understanding what people enjoy about Crawl. Nobody's experience with the game was being ruined by the existence of purple chunks.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:09
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Internet Kraken posted:Its idiotic that the game is changing so much that veteran players aren't enjoying it anymore. You might get beneficial mutations or you might not out of it, so it ruins the experience for the one player they care about : Hypothetical Autistic Man.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:12
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I went to look at the reasoning for removing them, and it's literally "they're unnecessary since mutation potions have a reasonable chance of increasing your number of mutations now".  quote:Remove mutagenic chunks.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:14
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"I will miss this feature but am still removing it because ?????" Are the devs literally, physically incapable of not removing a certain amount of stuff each version? Do they have some arbitrary quota for content that needs to be cut? This makes no goddamn sense. Regardless, their reason is bad and flawed; mutation potions should not be your primary means of mutating because they are also the only way to purge mutations. You have to hold onto enough potions to get rid of bad mutations incase an oof gives you teleportitis. Eating purple chunks was a way to mutate without wasting your only method of mutation removal.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:33
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Wow, removing purple chunks. Huh. That's removing "eat the purple" from the game. One of the last holdouts of fun, silly bullshit in the game, one that had a player catch phrase behind it. It's just gone now. Crawl's just not a fun game at all anymore huh.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:39
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Zaodai posted:It is usually safer to apply Hanlon's Razor instead. I'm reminded of my favorite Sherlock Holmes Quote: "When you have eliminated the unnecessary, whatever remains, however optimal, is not worth loving playing"
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Dec 18, 2017 01:50
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I'm looking back and I think the first time I downloaded a version of trunk tiles was .8. They've done a lot for playability since then especially online tiles. But gently caress every time I open this thread I get sad.
Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 01:53
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lmao holy gently caress they actually removed purple chunks. thank god that actually fun roguelikes exist.
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Dec 18, 2017 02:19
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Chunks of purple meat were a hallmark of Tolkien, it was inevitable.
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Dec 18, 2017 02:33
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wheres my loving chokos
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Dec 18, 2017 02:45
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I'm honestly curious how the guy who constantly defends the devs in here is going to spin this
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Dec 18, 2017 04:29
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Ironic Dongs. Get in here and explain this please.
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Dec 18, 2017 04:31
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This is probably the first obviously and unambiguously bad dev decision I've seen. It's not just that eating the purp is a fun but (usually) suboptimal way of providing variety. It's also a valuable comeback mechanism. It means that if you're horribly mutated and out of potions you'll always have a generous but limited number of mulligans. A player with resists, AC, and a supply of mut potions isn't going to use it (if playing optimally) but a character who is weak on the strategic layer is much more likely to be helped.
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Dec 18, 2017 04:46
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gowb posted:Ironic Dongs. Get in here and explain this please.
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Dec 18, 2017 04:50
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Did they change potions of mutation to be more likely to add mutations to you? Or do they still cure 1d4 mutations and then add 1d2 or something?
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Dec 18, 2017 06:01
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Ferrinus posted:Did they change potions of mutation to be more likely to add mutations to you? Or do they still cure 1d4 mutations and then add 1d2 or something? It removes 2-6 mutations, adds 1-3 random mutations, and adds 1 good mutation, in that order. Edit: I don't know what the odds are for each value. 2d3 is different than 1d5+1 which is different from some scaling chance and I honestly have no idea how it works. Prism fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 06:08
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Still not really playing but just keeping tabs on game's development. Boo to the death of always eating the purple.
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Dec 18, 2017 06:17
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| # ? May 28, 2024 09:04 |
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the tipping point was when pizza got removed.
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Dec 18, 2017 06:21
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