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fivegears4reverse posted:It's toxic masculinity to wonder what the plan is when you and everyone you care for are about to die? k Of all the valid arguments that you could make about the movie's bad logic and writing, this one makes absolutely no sense because the film makes it very clear why Holdo was totally correct in not telling Poe the plan: because as soon as she did, he immediately did something incredibly stupid and leaked it to the empire. She correctly identified him as someone who doesn't follow orders and doesn't respect the chain of command, and she had absolutely no confidence that, once he knew the plan, he wouldn't do something like zip off in an X-wing, get captured, and have it popped out of his mind by Snoke. Like the movie DIRECTLY SHOWS US what Poe does when he's told the plan: blabs about it on an unsecure line and gets hundreds of people killed. Poe sucks as a character and an archetype, and the movie knows this and explicitly shows it, in order to make him learn and grow into someone better.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:30
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I think it's silly to "ground" star wars in a silly and shallow economic allegory about arms dealers and capitalists. I also found it hard to accept that the only way to be rich in a vast galaxy is to be an arms dealer, kinda weak really. Isn't there anyone making bank just mining metal ore for the grand construction projects in Coruscant? No one just fermenting the best boutique alien milk beer in the known universe? Come on.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:32
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I think it's silly to "ground" star wars in a silly and shallow economic allegory about arms dealers and capitalists. I also found it hard to accept that the only way to be rich in a vast galaxy is to be an arms dealer, kinda weak really. star wars
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Dec 18, 2017 08:34
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fivegears4reverse posted:It's toxic masculinity to wonder what the plan is when you and everyone you care for are about to die? k Yeah, your septupling down on this incredibly wrong reading of a scene is tiresome. The fleet was ready to leave, it wasn't a do or die moment, Poe's hot-headed sacrifice of the resistance's entire bomber fleet was explicitly a failure. It doesn't matter if you deal a hundred times the damage you receive if your opponent outnumbers you a thousand times over. In hindsight, destroying the dreadnought might have been necessary. But we don't know that. It may have not been able to even make the jump in time with the rest of the fleet. It may have been too slow to stalk the fleet. We can't theorize because it isn't given to us. Because it didn't happen. We do know the movie tells us that Poe's leaning on his legend to lead a suicide bomber run was foolish. We have a respected character flat out say as much. It's almost a textbook pyrrhic victory. At this point it seems like you're hell-bent on proving Leia wrong, which is right in line with Poe's behavior. Maybe take a step back and think on that for a bit. Go treat yourself and rewatch the movie. Either you really misunderstood many parts of the film or you're intentionally making an effort to twist the film. I personally would like to think that it's the former.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:35
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SHISHKABOB posted:star wars Are the stars made of wars?
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Dec 18, 2017 08:36
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Z. Autobahn posted:Of all the valid arguments that you could make about the movie's bad logic and writing, this one makes absolutely no sense because the film makes it very clear why Holdo was totally correct in not telling Poe the plan: because as soon as she did, he immediately did something incredibly stupid and leaked it to the empire. She correctly identified him as someone who doesn't follow orders and doesn't respect the chain of command, and she had absolutely no confidence that, once he knew the plan, he wouldn't do something like zip off in an X-wing, get captured, and have it popped out of his mind by Snoke. Holdo's plan is to destroy the entire Resistance fleet so four hundred people can hole up on Salty Hoth and wait for reinforcements that the movie DIRECTLY SHOWS US do not come.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:36
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There was nothing anti capitalist about this film. At best it was maybe anti arms dealer, like in the way Tony Stark or Bruce Wane realize that it's wrong to sell weapons (to certain people).
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Dec 18, 2017 08:37
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The movie isn't just about light/dark as abstract concepts, it's about how they actually act and influence the world. Luke doesn't fail because has 'too much darkness' or 'too much light', he fails because he is unsure what the proper way to act is when faced with an individual full of conflict, panics and runs. True involvement with the force means accepting that any violent intervention, no matter how justified, is inherently going to contribute to chaos; the Jedi failed because they accepted their role as the galaxy's cops, and there's no such thing as an unproblematic police force. Luke in the end only attains ascendence through a transgalactic act of nonviolent resistance.Nude Bog Lurker posted:Holdo's plan is to destroy the entire Resistance fleet so four hundred people can hole up on Salty Hoth and wait for reinforcements that the movie DIRECTLY SHOWS US do not come. The argument that Holdo's plan is bad is a much better one that she should have told Poe, Least Reliable Rebel, all the details. That said, I think with four hundred people there, they could have done a lot more than what they did with the, what, fifty who made it? And the Empire wouldn't have known where they'd fled to until much later. Z. Autobahn fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 08:37
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Are the stars made of wars? No the wars are made of stars.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:37
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Z. Autobahn posted:1) Yes, Rian's body of work is way weirder and more original than Gareth's? Gareth's not a hack, but he's also no made anything a tenth as weird as Brick. Monsters is least as contrarian and expectation-subverting as TLJ.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:39
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Yo so was snoke like a hosed up clone or something, I kinda thought they might address literally anything about him at some point before he died
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Dec 18, 2017 08:40
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Sinding Johansson posted:There was nothing anti capitalist about this film. At best it was maybe anti arms dealer, like in the way Tony Stark or Bruce Wane realize that it's wrong to sell weapons (to certain people). Rose says that the only way to be rich is to sells weapons to both sides, I kind of took that as "the ultra rich deal in death and conflict", maybe that's just me.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:41
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Wolfsheim posted:Yo so was snoke like a hosed up clone or something, I kinda thought they might address literally anything about him at some point before he died Snoke was boring and sucked, and he was always boring and sucked; the only thing remotely interesting about him was the promise that maybe some day he wouldn't be boring and suck, which is everything wrong with JJ's storytelling. Getting killed like a punk to advance the arcs of better characters is the best thing that could have happened to him.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:42
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Also props to whoever threw in that casino plot arc as a tribute to the bad CGI and plots that go nowhere and don't matter of the prequels, at least someone is trying to stay faithful to Lucas' vision
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Dec 18, 2017 08:43
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PJOmega posted:Go treat yourself and rewatch the movie. Haha This toxic masculinity subplot fails because Poe isn't actually a misogynist in the final film. So we go back to the lesson he learns is what, to blindly follow orders? Contrast that to actually good film Rogue One where the heroes realize that doing what's right means sometimes not following orders.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:43
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Wolfsheim posted:Yo so was snoke like a hosed up clone or something, I kinda thought they might address literally anything about him at some point before he died He is a Gloating Space Emperor with Wizard Powers. If the Prequels didn't hammer home how loving excruciatingly boring it is to delve into the Gloating Space Emperor's origins and rise to power instead of just letting him be a villain in the larger story, IDK what to tell you.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:44
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Z. Autobahn posted:Of all the valid arguments that you could make about the movie's bad logic and writing, this one makes absolutely no sense because the film makes it very clear why Holdo was totally correct in not telling Poe the plan: because as soon as she did, he immediately did something incredibly stupid and leaked it to the empire. She correctly identified him as someone who doesn't follow orders and doesn't respect the chain of command, and she had absolutely no confidence that, once he knew the plan, he wouldn't do something like zip off in an X-wing, get captured, and have it popped out of his mind by Snoke. the movie deefinitely doesnt show us poe leaking it. its implied but never shown that that is how del toro knew.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:45
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Sinding Johansson posted:There was nothing anti capitalist about this film. At best it was maybe anti arms dealer, like in the way Tony Stark or Bruce Wane realize that it's wrong to sell weapons (to certain people). Hmm, that's true if you're a hyper-literalist robot who can only take the most surface possible read of a text. Literally everything about the sequence in CasinoPlanet is shot in a 'gently caress the rich' fashion, showing them gorging themselves while the world burns, so lost in their excess they literally just shove money into random things with no rhyme or reason. Like if you can't follow how a cut from 'the worst people in the galaxy' to a montage of rich people lavishing in wealth and luxury is anti-capitalist, I really don't know where to begin.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:45
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Ramadu posted:the movie deefinitely doesnt show us poe leaking it. its implied but never shown that that is how del toro knew. Wrong. He tells it to Finn over the com, and there's a quick shot of Del Toro perking up. I caught it on the second watch.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:46
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Z. Autobahn posted:Of all the valid arguments that you could make about the movie's bad logic and writing, this one makes absolutely no sense because the film makes it very clear why Holdo was totally correct in not telling Poe the plan: because as soon as she did, he immediately did something incredibly stupid and leaked it to the empire. She correctly identified him as someone who doesn't follow orders and doesn't respect the chain of command, and she had absolutely no confidence that, once he knew the plan, he wouldn't do something like zip off in an X-wing, get captured, and have it popped out of his mind by Snoke. Why is it Poe’s fault and not say, Finn and Rose, who make a deal with an amoral mercenary who then proceeds to sell them out in exactly the fashion you’d expect from an amoral mercenary? And assuming that things would play out exactly the same if she’d told him her plan is ridiculous. He’s a decorated pilot and an officer that both women share fond words about later, but he’s also a bumbling, self-involved idiot that can’t be trusted with information. Also, not only does she keep it a secret from Poe, but apparently she keeps it a secret for nearly everyone because the crew seems to largely support the mutiny.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:46
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Z. Autobahn posted:Wrong. He tells it to Finn over the com, and there's a quick shot of Del Toro perking up. I caught it on the second watch. then whats the loving point of them continuing on with their mission if he tells them they are gonna do that??? there is LITERALLY NO REASON TO DISABLE THE TRAKCER THEN a better plan: leave the tracker on and after all the boats are off hyperspace out with the ship so all the imperials follow them bing bong simple god i hate this idiot movie
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Dec 18, 2017 08:48
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Why is it Poe’s fault and not say, Finn and Rose, who make a deal with an amoral mercenary who then proceeds to sell them out in exactly the fashion you’d expect from an amoral mercenary? And assuming that things would play out exactly the same if she’d told him her plan is ridiculous. He’s a decorated pilot and an officer that both women share fond words about later, but he’s also a bumbling, self-involved idiot that can’t be trusted with information. Yes, Finn and Rose are also guilty of placing their own needs first, though for different reasons. Holdo clearly doesn't keep it from everyone, because a number of high-ranking officers and ship captains are putting her plan into motion. What she does do is what every good general hatching a secret plan *should* do, which is keep the information on a need-to-know basis. And Poe had absolutely no need to know.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:50
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Z. Autobahn posted:Snoke was boring and sucked, and he was always boring and sucked; the only thing remotely interesting about him was the promise that maybe some day he wouldn't be boring and suck, which is everything wrong with JJ's storytelling. Getting killed like a punk to advance the arcs of better characters is the best thing that could have happened to him. I don't know if going the Rogue One route of 'kill the flat boring characters after awhile' is better than giving them a personality though??
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Dec 18, 2017 08:50
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Z. Autobahn posted:Of all the valid arguments that you could make about the movie's bad logic and writing, this one makes absolutely no sense because the film makes it very clear why Holdo was totally correct in not telling Poe the plan: because as soon as she did, he immediately did something incredibly stupid and leaked it to the empire. She correctly identified him as someone who doesn't follow orders and doesn't respect the chain of command, and she had absolutely no confidence that, once he knew the plan, he wouldn't do something like zip off in an X-wing, get captured, and have it popped out of his mind by Snoke. DJ explicitly tells us he cut a deal with the empire, and he's the one who told them the plan. Like, they even thank him, with money, for being the one to totally gently caress the rebels over. Try watching the movie as opposed to lying about it to dunk on nerds you disagree with. The movie has nothing intelligent to say about the character archetype of Poe. His actions are directly the result of being cut out of the loop in the middle of a life-or-death struggle. He's called a hot head for 'getting people killed' while the rebels were a script edit away from being completely destroyed over generic forest world. Holdo doesn't even tell him the plan, he discovers it on his own when he tries to figure out what's going on. And when they try to talk about what is going on, she refuses to listen to him for reasons that for you I'm sure will boil down to "she's in charge maybe poe doesn't respect her because she's a woman". The movie also has nothing smart to say about characters like Holdo. She's a pretty generic example of a character who shows up, the audience is told explicitly that she's supposed to be awesome, but never actually shows it until the exact moment where they die and never get to influence anything ever again. Rose, the literal nobody by any standard, has more interesting things done with her despite the movie going out of its way to depict her as almost less than the average rebel. This is a movie that's a sequel to another movie where The Super Gun of Today's Episode destroys billions of people on five different planets at the same time, and that same hothead had to lead what the rebels had left in a desperate effort to stop it. Plenty of people got killed, yet if they fell back, the rebels would have been done. If Rian had written TFA to appeal to people like you, Poe would have ended the movie in a cell for getting a significant portion of his fellows killed if the slightest possibility to run away existed. And that's just as stupid as the entirety of this sub plot in TLJ.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:51
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Ramadu posted:then whats the loving point of them continuing on with their mission if he tells them they are gonna do that??? there is LITERALLY NO REASON TO DISABLE THE TRAKCER THEN The point is that in theory, their plan is actually better because it could actually save the capital ships as well, so it's worth trying. It's just a much riskier plan because it hinges on infiltrating a very secure location and not getting caught by, say, BB-H8. The real trick would have been to make sure that the *undercover agents we are sending directly into enemy turf* don't know the details of the secret backup plan so if they get caught, they can't reveal it... which Poe fucks up by blabbing it to Finn.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:52
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[quote="“Z. Autobahn”" post="“479446732”"] Yes, Finn and Rose are also guilty of placing their own needs first, though for different reasons. Holdo clearly doesn’t keep it from everyone, because a number of high-ranking officers and ship captains are putting her plan into motion. What she does do is what every good general hatching a secret plan *should* do, which is keep the information on a need-to-know basis. And Poe had absolutely no need to know. [/quote] They’re putting her plan to load people into transports in motion. Poe knows she’s doing that too. That’s not the whole plan. He has her detained in front of all of those people and takes command and nobody says or does anything.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:53
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fivegears4reverse posted:DJ explicitly tells us he cut a deal with the empire, and he's the one who told them the plan. Like, they even thank him, with money, for being the one to totally gently caress the rebels over. Try watching the movie as opposed to lying about it to dunk on nerds you disagree with. DJ only knows the plan in the first place because Poe blabs it to Finn over an unsecure line, with DJ eavesdropping. The movie shows this. Every word you just said is wrong.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:53
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Z. Autobahn posted:Ugh, I wonder if JJ is going to resolve this by having some sort of REALLY BIG THIRD BAD emerge from beyond the rim, and ep 9 is the remnants of the empire teaming up with the remnants of the resistance to stop it. As if Disney and JJA didn't already plot out the general story beats for 7, 8 and 9 before they started filming 7.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:54
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YOLOsubmarine posted:They’re putting her plan to load people into transports in motion. Poe knows she’s doing that too. That’s not the whole plan. He has her detained in front of all of those people and takes command and nobody says or does anything. Yes, because revealing the top-secret plan in front of a packed hangar bay would be a terrible idea, as opposed to quickly and effectively resolving the mutiny and restoring order, which is what Holdo does. Her one mistake is in underestimating just how horrifically Poe could manage to gently caress up in the 5 minutes it took her to act. Poe is *that bad* at keeping information classified.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:55
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I was honestly surprised they didn't pull the old canard with DJ of the turncoat being told "oh yes you'll get exactly the reward you deserve" and getting murked by the Space Nazis once they had what they needed from him.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:55
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Steve Yun posted:As if Disney and JJA didn't already plot out the general story beats for 7, 8 and 9 before they started filming 7. I mean, you'd think so, but it's really hard for me to imagine JJ being cool with the beats of TLJ.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:55
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There are a million valid criticisms of this movie. "Why did the competent admiral keep her secret plan on a need-to-know basis instead of telling it to the unpredictable pilot who was literally just shown one scene ago to be terrible at following orders" is not one of them. Like.... you guys do know that in real life, generals don't just tell their secret plans to every single soldier who demands to know, right? And there's a good reason they don't do that?
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Dec 18, 2017 08:57
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Z. Autobahn posted:There are a million valid criticisms of this movie. "Why did the admiral keep her secret plan on a need-to-know basis instead of telling it to the unpredictable pilot who was literally just shown one scene ago to be terrible at following orders" is not one of them. yes it is
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Dec 18, 2017 08:57
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I think it's silly to "ground" star wars in a silly and shallow economic allegory about arms dealers and capitalists. I also found it hard to accept that the only way to be rich in a vast galaxy is to be an arms dealer, kinda weak really. Honestly, when the entire galaxy has been at war for as long as anyone's been alive, I can imagine the economy getting a little sidetracked.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:58
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Z. Autobahn posted:Hmm, that's true if you're a hyper-literalist robot who can only take the most surface possible read of a text. Literally everything about the sequence in CasinoPlanet is shot in a 'gently caress the rich' fashion, showing them gorging themselves while the world burns, so lost in their excess they literally just shove money into random things with no rhyme or reason. Compared to past Star Wars movies it absolutely is a regression. Capitalism is not sustained by arms dealing. Vanishingly few capitalists are arms dealers. The casino scenes barely read as a condemnation of lavish excess let alone capitalism. Let's look at what is missing. Now gone is any nuance or allegory in say the social class of the characters or in how droids or aliens are treated. There was the actual anti capitalism in Star Wars.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:59
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Pac-Manioc Root posted:He is a Gloating Space Emperor with Wizard Powers. Whoa buddy, the prequels are bad for a lot of reasons but Palpatine hamming it up to the point that he has a dark side orgasm in front of Anakin was not one of them. But I meant less thematically (because I agree, Kylo Ren is a much stronger character and the best part of VII and VIII) but I meant, like, logistically, what's his deal? Was he just an all powerful wizard chilling on a rock somewhere waiting for the emperor and Vader to die so he could be the boss? Was he Palpatine's old dark side roommate at Sith College? Why was he all hosed up, or was he an alien and his race all look like humans who got in a real bad car accident?
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Dec 18, 2017 08:59
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Z. Autobahn posted:Yes, because revealing the top-secret plan in front of a packed hangar bay would be a terrible idea, as opposed to quickly and effectively resolving the mutiny and restoring order, which is what Holdo does. Her one mistake is in underestimating just how horrifically Poe could manage to gently caress up in the 5 minutes it took her to act. Poe is *that bad* at keeping information classified. She is only facing a mutiny in the first place - from a sizeable number of her junior officers - because SHE IS A lovely OFFICER WHO HER CREW DO NOT TRUST. We're not supposed to think this, but the movie is very, very bad at lining up its 'messages' with what it is actually portraying.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:00
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[quote="“Z. Autobahn”" post="“479446788”"] Yes, because revealing the top-secret plan in front of a packed hangar bay would be a terrible idea, as opposed to quickly and effectively resolving the mutiny and restoring order, which is what Holdo does. Her one mistake is in underestimating just how horrifically Poe could manage to gently caress up in the 5 minutes it took her to act. Poe is *that bad* at keeping information classified. [/quote] You know it’s a movie, right? These aren’t real people and the choices about how they behave and the consequences were made to enforce specific ideas, and in the case the idea seems to be that almost everyone in the resistance just needs to shut up and take orders because they’re too dumb to be trusted with information materially important to their safety and well-being. At least that’s what you seem to be saying. But also it’s totally socialist and collectivist.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:02
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Sinding Johansson posted:This toxic masculinity subplot fails because Poe isn't actually a misogynist in the final film. So we go back to the lesson he learns is what, to blindly follow orders? You're really starting to sound like a right wing radio host, what with the endless repetition of arguments ineffectually addressing arguments you think others are making. While miraculously failing to address arguments that are made directly to you. It's tired, even moreso because you're garbage at it. Please stop.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:02
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There was something about the plot where every event seemed particularly tenuously connected to the next, like each scene was planned separately by committee and then they had to try and fit them together. What actually happened ended up really silly at times, just to make everything work. Like: - If the acting commander (Holdo) had just explained her whole plan to the crew, not just the part about leaving on the transports but also about how they could escape undetected, basically the whole film wouldn't have happened and the rebels would have successfully escaped to the planet. - Later, Luke does a similar thing where he goes outside to provide a diversion but doesn't bother to tell the rebels what he's doing and that they should leave while he's out there. Just so the film can add a little extra suspense while they work out what he wants them to do. What if they'd just waited to see what he was doing? - The bad guys detect the escaping rebel transports easily enough once they know look for them. It seems pretty far fetched that they weren't to be spotted without a tipoff? - They fail to get the one codebreaker in the galaxy that could have helped them but they immediately find another one when they're alone in jail. - They don't really seem to care that they've doomed the rebels after their dramatic escape from jail that gets their ship destroyed. Then of course they get immediately rescued anyway. Also, not a plot complaint, but the "feel the force" ocean waves, sun rising, plants growing montage was super cheesy. Having said that, the big reveal with the cut to Luke back on his island struggling to force-project himself to everyone at once was brilliant. By far the cleverest part of the plot. Showing that Rey actually stole the Jedi books before the tree got burned was pretty cool too.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:03
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