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The phenomenon is related to the comprador bourgeoisie. People who are connected to international upper classes and who like to think of themselves as super cosmopolitan. This leads to groups with both a strong desire to consume international fashions and highlight the parts of Brazilian culture that are accepted by international fashion, and a rejection of all the parts of Brazil that may seem backwards or unrefined. Which side wins out tends to depend on context. There is a ton written on this and its relation to music, consumption etc. So, for example, the Bossa Nova appeared in 1958 and no one gave a drat about it. But then in 1962 it becomes popular in the US and suddenly upper class Brazilians love it (to the point where it is now a record label strategy to release musicians internationally just so that they can become successful in Brazil, like with Bebel Gilberto). Or any lovely American restaurant chain becoming super popular among rich people in Brazil (Outback steakhouse, etc). Or when Lula was running for president, upper class Brazilians would unironically say things like "What will the world think when we go from a president who can give speeches at the UN in fluent French to an illiterate one who barely speaks Portuguese!" So depending on context Brazil can go from "cool land that you should ask me more about because its cool" to "terrible place that I've left/don't fit in because I'm better than all of them." Which leads to these people holding obviously contradictory views, like being very progressive when the subject is American politics to super regressive when the subject is Brazilian politics (despite Brazilian politics being substantially to the right of American ones, because these people think of politics as just a matter of fashion and symbols, not actual resources). My favorite one is the Manhattan Connection journalist who was simultaneously outraged at the killing of Michael Brown and strongly supported ROTA in Sao Paulo (which kills more people than all police forces in the US combined).
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Dec 11, 2017 20:40
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joepinetree posted:My favorite one is the Manhattan Connection journalist who was simultaneously outraged at the killing of Michael Brown and strongly supported ROTA in Sao Paulo (which kills more people than all police forces in the US combined). Haha, that's some serious broke brains there. I was in NYC during the Eric Garner protests and in the middle of a sea of people screaming "I can't breathe" I was reminded of the ridiculous amount of extrajudicial killings we have in Brazil. Also reminded that the cops would probably face a lot less backlash by the Brazilian population while being worse, more corrupt and less trained than the ones in the US. Whenever someone argues with me that we need a death penalty I just laugh. The pro-police in Brazil aren't actually for stuff that would actually improve polices lives (better salaries, more officers per capita, better working conditions, better jails), they are mostly pro-death. You never see these guys pushing for more police on the streets, only for harsher penalties, as if they would help anything in a country where we just kill kids on their first misdemeanor.
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Dec 11, 2017 20:51
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joepinetree posted:The phenomenon is related to the comprador bourgeoisie. People who are connected to international upper classes and who like to think of themselves as super cosmopolitan. This leads to groups with both a strong desire to consume international fashions and highlight the parts of Brazilian culture that are accepted by international fashion, and a rejection of all the parts of Brazil that may seem backwards or unrefined. Which side wins out tends to depend on context. There is a ton written on this and its relation to music, consumption etc. Finding Pizza Hut and Outback weren't high class expensive crap on foreign countries shook me.
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Dec 12, 2017 02:32
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To be fair, those fast food chains are legit better in Latin America. When I went to Argentina I was shocked by how nice Burger King was.
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Dec 12, 2017 02:38
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Fast food used to be a White People kind of thing but it's changing now and I'm always getting surprised by the places you can find a Subway or a McDonald's now.
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Dec 12, 2017 03:04
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Badger of Basra posted:This is just anecdotal based on the Brazilians I’ve met in the US, but I feel like you either get this or the exact opposite, where Brazil is the most hosed up country on earth and has the worst economy, the poorest poor people, etc etc. Yeah, those are both approaches people use to cope. Going "Oh, it's not THAT bad, we're the 8th economy of the world, you know! We have huge cities!" is a way to not be seen as one of those unwashed third-world savages. Likewise, going "Yeah, it's hell on earth, lazy people, hordes of starving skeleton kids, people murdered for their shoes left and right!" can be an excuse as to why you left while others stayed, or also a way to set yourself apart from -those- backward people.
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Dec 12, 2017 04:07
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It's a lot easier to talk about Brazil in a more balanced way when you don't have a idealized view of first world countries like some people do. Especially in the US which is barely a first world country these days, it's easier to explain the good things and the bad things.
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Dec 12, 2017 09:28
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Could you loving imagine if the US stopped being a developed country like Argentina did?
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Dec 12, 2017 10:46
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Non Serviam posted:To allow for political campaigns that target those who voted for others? It's kind of obvious. I mean, I get it but it's really nerve wracking. And the more time Piñera has to talk, the more likely he is to say (more) things to undermine himself. If we could ever manage a government that simultaneously had a progressive agenda and could manage to pay its bills on time I would be p. happy. edit: Though Piñera might actually follow through on pushing the Plan Unico de Salud and that would be more progressive than like everything that has happened in the states in the last 18 years.
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Dec 12, 2017 13:00
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Just a question. I think I remember hearing about a Latin American nation that has anonymous numbered candidates on their ballot. Is there actually a place that does this or am i imagining it?
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Dec 14, 2017 13:12
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Ora Tzo posted:Just a question. I think I remember hearing about a Latin American nation that has anonymous numbered candidates on their ballot. In Brazil you vote on a candidate by the number, not name, but they are not anonymous.
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Dec 14, 2017 15:58
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Big protests in Argentina today, being met with very fierce repression. Bad enough that an important reform vote was cancelled because Congress was not considered secure. Weirdly enough, you can't find a single line about it in Brazilian media.
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Dec 15, 2017 00:23
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Sephyr posted:Weirdly enough, you can't find a single line about it in Brazilian media. we don't want encouragement now do we thing is, and that kinda applies to the whole of our turf, poo poo goes down when it gets really bad in comparison to the relative average of the current times, so if inflation and energy "corrections" keep going the way they are along with wage erosion, we might see some actual lets gently caress poo poo up moments, and not 2013 "THE GIANT AWAKES" loltastic crap
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Dec 15, 2017 00:36
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joepinetree posted:In Brazil you vote on a candidate by the number, not name, but they are not anonymous. I actually remember then making the candidates anonymous or semi anonymous during the late 70s when ARENA was taking a beating on the polls.
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Dec 15, 2017 01:14
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Sephyr posted:Weirdly enough, you can't find a single line about it in Brazilian media.   nothing on Estadão, but that's expected (because they are really lovely).
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Dec 15, 2017 01:49
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Sephyr posted:Big protests in Argentina today, being met with very fierce repression. Bad enough that an important reform vote was cancelled because Congress was not considered secure. Fun fact: The vote was cancelled after multiple parties (FIT, FPV, 1Pais) denounced that two of the government's congressmen were illegitimate. Without those two there wasn't quorum for a proper vote. Later that afternoon, the president tried to get the reforms to pass by decree. By the end of the day, he'd already backpedaled down from that. It's like watching a sitcom, except that for every dumb thing the characters do, there is poverty and police brutality instead of canned laughter.
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Dec 15, 2017 03:11
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Have brazilian media said anything about Peru's political crisis? I'm at Lima and there's a shitstorm about the president receiving money from Odebrecht.
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Dec 15, 2017 03:19
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tbqf I would be surprised if any of our neighbors didn't get some cash from gerdau, camargo corrêa, OAS et al brazilian sub-imperialism is actually quite the thing
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Dec 15, 2017 03:24
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Plutonis posted:Have brazilian media said anything about Peru's political crisis? I'm at Lima and there's a shitstorm about the president receiving money from Odebrecht. Very small notes here and there, from what I've seen.
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Dec 15, 2017 05:19
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Piñera won in Chile. Thank goodness.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:41
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Non Serviam posted:Piñera won in Chile. Thank goodness. Pardon my lack of knowledge on Chilean politics but... what was the alternative and why was it worse? In other news, Mexican 2018 electoral campaigns have kicked off and I already hate them all and wish it would wrap up already.
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Dec 18, 2017 07:10
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Freezer posted:Pardon my lack of knowledge on Chilean politics but... what was the alternative and why was it worse? The alternative was Guillier, who was backed by the far left parties (the "Venezuela and Cuba are great and we should follow their steps" crowd). Some of the changes proposed by Guillier's coalition involved changing our pension and healthcare systems in a way that would, in all likelihood, bankrupt the economy and leave the country with a worse system on both fronts. Chile has significant problems associated with income inequality and lack of opportunities. The extreme left has, through a populist discourse, attempted to rally support by making this kind of unrealistic promises. I'd point at these issues as two of my main concerns.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:00
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Non Serviam posted:Piñera won in Chile. Thank goodness. i remember when humala was elected in peru and the civil wars were devastating
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Dec 18, 2017 09:05
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Non Serviam posted:The alternative was Guillier, who was backed by the far left parties (the "Venezuela and Cuba are great and we should follow their steps" crowd). lol jesus you kinds of people do exist edit i was going over chilean twitterati with a friend who had lived there for a couple years, he said this type of poo poo was extremely common bordering on saturation: https://twitter.com/aleja_jos/status/942523608563355649
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Dec 18, 2017 09:08
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my friend says the active left is uneducated, unfocused and tied down by cashflow; they're willing to get their skulls busted but ideological organizing and national issues are slim
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Dec 18, 2017 09:12
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I mean I don't really care what's your political leaning, once the words "Venezuela is an example to follow" are uttered, you aren't getting my vote. See: Argentinian parties such as MST, Patria Grande, etc.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:17
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Aliquid posted:lol jesus you kinds of people do exist 54% of the votes so, yeah, we do exist. Enjoy supporting the far left. I guess THIS TIME they'll make it work. It doesn't matter that it has failed every single time it has been attempted, I'm sure this time it'll work.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:26
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Azran posted:I mean I don't really care what's your political leaning, once the words "Venezuela is an example to follow" are uttered, you aren't getting my vote. See: Argentinian parties such as MST, Patria Grande, etc. That's Camila Vallejo, for example. A former student organizer who never worked anywhere outside of politics, who is making millions as a public speaker and as a congresswoman, and who had openly praised Cuba and Venezuela. These people are tankies, true parodies of themselves.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:32
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Non Serviam posted:Some of the changes proposed by Guillier's coalition involved changing our pension and healthcare systems in a way that would, in all likelihood, bankrupt the economy and leave the country with a worse system on both fronts. Classic conservativism. Sorry Non Serviam that's not how economics work, you were conned by some weakass austerity rhetorics.
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Dec 18, 2017 10:19
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Symbolic Butt posted:Classic conservativism. Sorry Non Serviam that's not how economics work, you were conned by some weakass austerity rhetorics. It's not an issue of austerity, it's about people who can administer funds, and people who cannot. Tell Venezuela how they got duped.
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Dec 18, 2017 10:40
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The only leaders the stinking rotos deserve are their betters in Peru and Bolivia after their country is annexed during the segunda guerra del pacífico
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Dec 18, 2017 10:46
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Apparently all you have to do to be a serious commentator of politics is repeat VENEZUELA over and over again like a simpleton.
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Dec 18, 2017 11:05
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Why do people keep repeating Venezuela over and over again? It's not like it's the only country in 2010s Latin America where the left wing took charge.
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Dec 18, 2017 11:06
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Non Serviam posted:It's not an issue of austerity, it's about people who can administer funds, and people who cannot. Venezuela's situation has nothing to do with being "unrealistic" with their welfare state, that's where you're being conned.
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Dec 18, 2017 11:10
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Barbe Rouge posted:Apparently all you have to do to be a serious commentator of politics is repeat VENEZUELA over and over again like a simpleton. No, it's to vote for a party that is not supporting a failed ideology that bankrupts and destroy countries. Edit. The tears of the left today are pure nourishment. Redrum and Coke fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 11:29
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Hopefully this means a return to fiscal balance and the government being able to pay suppliers before they die of old age. Someone told me Chile is apparantly the best payer in Latin America and all I could do was LOL. Piñera will hopefully 1) keep order and 2) not bankrupt the country. Incidentally, those are the necessary conditions to support a sustainable progressive agenda. Non Serviam posted:Edit. The tears of the left today are pure nourishment. Bottle some for later they'll still taste great in 3 months.
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Dec 18, 2017 12:31
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Symbolic Butt posted:Classic conservativism. Sorry Non Serviam that's not how economics work, you were conned by some weakass austerity rhetorics. Spending until you can't borrow anymore then defaulting on the debt hasn't worked super well for any country on the continent as far as I'm aware. =(
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Dec 18, 2017 12:34
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Anyone saying they should follow the example of Venezuela (or Cuba for that matter) should not be listened to. That's not a leftist, that's an idiot. It makes even less sense to support Venezuela in modern day Chile, a country that receives thousands of Venezuelan expats every loving month who are escaping total economic ruination. Seriously, I don't care how sound their ideas may be otherwise, anyone who voices support for the current Venezuelan government should be completely shunned, and the sooner Latin America understands that the Pink Tide was a scam the quicker we will all develop.
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Dec 18, 2017 12:46
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You're just switching scams. Welcome to economical austerity, everyone.
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Dec 18, 2017 13:11
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wateroverfire posted:Spending until you can't borrow anymore then defaulting on the debt hasn't worked super well for any country on the continent as far as I'm aware. =( I don't want to get too much into macroeconomics because I'm not even the most qualified/eloquent person to talk about it at length but I'll just hammer this point: No country ever in history got into a debt crisis because they spent too much on welfare, that's a ridiculous notion.
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Dec 18, 2017 13:36
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